Yea but statistics show that innovation comes from less competitive environments and that moeny takes away creativity.
IBM disagrees with you.
[QUOTE=Teddi Orange;27763995]IBM disagrees with you.[/QUOTE]
One company isn't every company. If sure valve gets many fans by giving stuff out for free and being good but Microsoft makes even more money by making you pay for internet.
and like I said before money and competition take away creativity.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;27764193]One company isn't every company. If sure valve gets many fans by giving stuff out for free and being good but Microsoft makes even more money by making you pay for internet.
and like I said before money and competition take away creativity.[/QUOTE]
[LIST]
[*]Microsoft do not make you pay for the Internet, ISP's do.
[*]Valve do not just give things out for "free"
[/LIST]
Two examples of Valve not giving you things for just "free".
This applies to any product, once you have purchased it, you have purchased it. The trade of money for goods / lisences / rights. To help sweeten the deal / provide incentives they offer (although they don't offer an obligation) free updates. They are not obligated to do so however it provides them with free advertising and most likely more business. Therefore it is worth their time and money (which are everything in a working world) to do so.
My second point is that Valve have released the MANN.Co store for TF2. You may say "but you can still get the hats for free via drops and crafting!". No, this is not the point. If it were, Valve would never have released the MC Store. They would have kept to the spirit of being free and all users would have been equal. Yet those who want to, can. And Valve is [B]encouraging [/B]users to be creative and design hats to gain a chance to actually sell their hats on said store.
You're looking at the world with a simple viewpoint of why can't everyone share and love each other? The answer is that most humans have something to spurn them on and aspire to do something. Garrysmod was an idea that eventually became revenue for Garry and has thus continued to be even more creative because of this. The same applies to Minecraft. Money does not limit ideas, People who wish to maximise profits in a sour way limit ideas. A glaring example of that is Activision.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;27763802]Yea but statistics show that innovation comes from less competitive environments and that moeny takes away creativity.[/QUOTE]
Where is the empirical proof? How are the statistics interpreted? Is the data collection biased or flawed? Link (not just information presented from the ZM video or site; peer-reviewed, duplicable information)? There's a slew of extensively analyzed data that shows centrally-planned systems stifle competition, creation, innovation, motivation, production and pretty much everything else but art and warfare. There is nothing I know of that points to communist/fascist/socialist/totalitarian governments and their economies attaining self-sustaining, progressive existences; everything suggests the opposite.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;27763329]Could you please explain how it would be impossible to have a transition but a little shorter. I dont have all the time in the world right now to read. So are you saying its impossible to transition because people would be greedy, not enough people would believe in it, the government wouldn't give up there power or something? like I said before sorry I dont I cant read all of it.
I might have time to read it later if its impossible to summarize it.[/QUOTE]
Aside from not answering anything related to how the hardware or software for the automation will be developed, there is nothing that I've seen which proposes a location for the first planned construction, any kind of research and development for untested technologies (not to mention contingencies for any suprises) or provides a systematic transferral of a population from current socialist regimes to the ZM socialist system. All I've seen is mental masturbation resulting in pats on their own backs for reviving an old idea and pointing out the flaws with an obviously dying nation.
This movement seeks an end result. A final system to rule them all. That's a fallacy that has been attempted time and again. A static utopia, no matter how idealistic and intricate, is an impossibility. Humanity, existence itself as we know it, is dynamic and perpetually in flux. For that reason alone, central planning will fail.
Left to its own devices without government interference (including social engineering and manipulation), mankind will achieve the results envisioned by the Venus Project. The path to get there will arise independently of any central planning, and the results will not have the same appearance. In fact, there will be advances far more impressive than the ones so far listed by the ZM. At the advent of the United States of America, who would've envisioned the exact kind of developments spawned from IBM or any of thousands of other companies that have been innovative?
All that needs to be done is [u]nothing[/u]. That's right, nothing. Everyone needs to just step back and let natural processes take their course. Genetic algorithms tend to achieve the most effective results, no? The same applies here - there is no final design. There's a process that's continual and progressive. Let it work.
When free, individuals seek out opportunities.
Well yea I knew that. I was just making quick examples without explaining. My point was that valve is different then most companies because it makes money off of being nicer to customers. Meaning that every company will do what they can to get money and nothing more.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;27764941]Well yea I knew that. I was just making quick examples without explaining. My point was that valve is different then most companies because it makes money off of being nicer to customers. Meaning that every company will do what they can to get money and nothing more.[/QUOTE]
And thus they will be creative about how they get that money thus showing the opinion disguised as fact that you pulled out of your arse is false.
[QUOTE=Teddi Orange;27765012]And thus they will be creative about how they get that money thus showing the opinion disguised as fact that you pulled out of your arse is false.[/QUOTE]
That money takes away creativity? no thats not opinion that has been shown. sure people can do things for money but it like I said it would be done with a lot more purpose and try harder if they did it to simply make something.
[QUOTE=BloodYScar;27709620]We've been living in a capitalistic system that puts money over lives and advancement long enough.
If humanity wants to continue to evolve we MUST change our system.[/QUOTE]
alternatively, you realize the greatest achievements have come from capitalistic societies and capitalism is the great motivator
[QUOTE=cccritical;27765214]alternatively, you realize the greatest achievements have come from capitalistic societies and capitalism is the great motivator[/QUOTE]
[img]http://www.equalitytrust.org.uk/images/innovation.png[/img]
and this
[url]http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/motivation.html[/url]
do you even understand half the shit you post
those are all capitalistic societies (not strict capitalist but at least partially) and more patents does NOT mean more innovative products, it means more shit is being churned out faster and/or some innovations being buried under a sea of shit
[QUOTE=cccritical;27765376]do you even understand half the shit you post
those are all capitalistic societies (not strict capitalist but at least partially) and more patents does NOT mean more innovative products, it means more shit is being churned out faster and/or some innovations being buried under a sea of shit[/QUOTE]
Yea they are capitalist but they are a lot closer to what people would call socialist then all the others. The fact that more near socialist countries make more inventions would mean that something has to be going on when it comes to thinking of new things. strange because you might think that a capitalist country would have more because more people want to get rich on some new invention. also since less capitalist countries have less stress it makes sense that they would come up with new thigns since there mind isnt worried all the time.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;27765445]Yea they are capitalist but they are a lot closer to what people would call socialist then all the others. The fact that more near socialist countries make more inventions would mean that something has to be going on when it comes to thinking of new things. strange because you might think that a capitalist country would have more because more people want to get rich on some new invention. also since less capitalist countries have less stress it makes sense that they would come up with new thigns since there mind isnt worried all the time.[/QUOTE]
so let me get this straight
1. your own 'evidence' contradicts your half-baked [del]theories[/del] "facts" and supports mine
2. you think socialist societies aren't motivated by money
3. you think capitalistic societies are always carefree for whatever unexplained reason
this is why I fucking [b]hate[/b] arguing with you, worse yet you never admit you're wrong and constantly deny things you say pages back but are still too stupid/lazy to edit them out
you're fucking pathetic and if I'm going to waste any more time talking in here it'll be with someone else
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;27764193]One company isn't every company. If sure valve gets many fans by giving stuff out for free and being good but Microsoft makes even more money by making you pay for internet.
and like I said before money and competition take away creativity.[/QUOTE]
That isn't even a little bit true.
Valve makes a lot of money because publishers sell their product on their service.
Valve constantly improves it's service to make publishers want to sell their product on it.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;27765445]The fact that more near socialist countries make more inventions would mean that something has to be going on when it comes to thinking of new things.[/QUOTE]
uh...
...
what?
In case you didn't notice, your computer, the internet you're posting on, and the browser you're using to do that are all products of business ventures and warfare-related R&D
Finland is way up there on the list of patents, right?
From wikianswers:
[quote]Finland has three famous inventions: sauna, ice skates, and virtual air-guitar.[/quote]
Meanwhile, inventors from the US, which is among the lowest on your list, have practically invented the entire modern age.
[QUOTE=cccritical;27765607]so let me get this straight
1. your own 'evidence' contradicts your half-baked [del]theories[/del] "facts" and supports mine
2. you think socialist societies aren't motivated by money
3. you think capitalistic societies are always carefree for whatever unexplained reason
this is why I fucking [b]hate[/b] arguing with you, worse yet you never admit you're wrong and constantly deny things you say pages back but are still too stupid/lazy to edit them out
you're fucking pathetic and if I'm going to waste any more time talking in here it'll be with someone else[/QUOTE]
1. your own 'evidence' contradicts your half-baked theories "facts" and supports mine
explain.
2 I know this but they are less then more free market countries
3 no I dont
you are making things up. give me an example of me contradicting myself. Besides im not the one who gets all hostile.
Sector 7, don't bother. I think he's the most stubborn AND most misinformed person on Facepunch, he still believes 9/11 was a government inside job and the whole shebang.
[editline]30th January 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;27765838]1. your own 'evidence' contradicts your half-baked theories "facts" and supports mine
explain.
2 I know this but they are less then more free market countries
3 no I dont
you are making things up. give me an example of me contradicting myself. Besides im not the one who gets all hostile.[/QUOTE]
last post I will waste on you
your entire chart was capitalist[b]ic[/b] societies, you said capitalism halted innovation for the love of god
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;27765445]also since less capitalist countries have less stress it makes sense that they would come up with new thigns since there mind isnt worried all the time.[/QUOTE]
destroy your computer and kill yourself
[QUOTE=Sector 7;27765618]That isn't even a little bit true.
Valve makes a lot of money because publishers sell their product on their service.
Valve constantly improves it's service to make publishers want to sell their product on it.[/QUOTE]
valve doesnt make money off of loving fans?
[quote] In case you didn't notice, your computer, the internet you're posting on, and the browser you're using to do that are all products of business ventures and warfare-related R&D[/quote]
well sure thats because there was so many people and so many resources put into war. If we put time and resources into something else then we would thank them for inventions. Sure its true that the U.S. has made a lot of things. dont you think this might have something to do with how big we are and how powerful we are?
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;27765911]valve doesnt make money off of loving fans?[/QUOTE]
They wouldn't if there wasn't an economy, that's for sure
I'm telling you s7 you can never win an argument with a 5 year old, they just never give up
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;27765096]That money takes away creativity? no thats not opinion that has been shown. sure people can do things for money but it like I said it would be done with a lot more purpose and try harder if they did it to simply make something.[/QUOTE]
No, a person who is doing something for recreational purposes that gets stuck on something will (and can) either proceed to tackle it, take a break and look later, or just give up entirely. Someone who is paid has to do it and thus they will explore all routes known to them to get the job done.
You have to get out of the mindframe that people will simply do it because they're happy and willing to. I started and still currently run a GSP ([url]www.bbservers.co.uk[/url] heh) not because I find it fun to (and trust me, at times it really isn't) but because it can bring me some joy and it also provides me with a decent revenue stream which satisfies me. I can't just ask random people to be support staff for me because they'll want something out of it. The human mind seeks reward for performing tasks (there's recorded proof of this, I'll try and find it after i've posted this) and thus the worker will always want some form of reward. For some, gratitude and a future favour is enough. For others, it isn't.
The most fulfilling reward has been shown to be the creation itself. also I dont expect every single person to work 12 hours a day.
[editline]30th January 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=cccritical;27766025]I'm telling you s7 you can never win an argument with a 5 year old, they just never give up[/QUOTE]
good argument.
I know you might disagree but a scientific studies are scientific studies.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;27766133]The most fulfilling reward has been shown to be the creation itself. also I dont expect every single person to work 12 hours a day.
[editline]30th January 2011[/editline]
good argument.[/QUOTE]
He provides a better argument because unlike you, he actually understands what he's talking about.
And the fruition of what has been created does not always form some sort of joy. And if you don't expect people to work for a specific timeframe, what do you expect of them then?
actually I think I remember piggy admitting he was 14, you guys are arguing with someone who doesn't know what's coming out of his mouth and can't understand half of what you're saying
[QUOTE=Teddi Orange;27766205]He provides a better argument because unlike you, he actually understands what he's talking about.
And the fruition of what has been created does not always form some sort of joy. And if you don't expect people to work for a specific timeframe, what do you expect of them then?[/QUOTE]
I didnt say I dont expect them to work for a specific time rate. this seems to be getting out of hand though so I will just say what the study shows. People will do repetitive tasks better for money but creative things like painting, inventing, making jokes and the like are hindered by money.
[editline]30th January 2011[/editline]
[QUOTE=cccritical;27766274]actually I think I remember piggy admitting he was 14, you guys are arguing with someone who doesn't know what's coming out of his mouth and can't understand half of what you're saying[/QUOTE]
Your a are just lying now. I understand you not making an argument but making pointless post trying to make fun of someone which has nothing to do with anything is just stupid. Im not 14 and I never said I was but this isnt the first time you lied trying to make me out to be something bad so it someone makes changes points. If we are going to spend post time calling each other names then I could use the many things you said or believe against you.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;27766510]I didnt say I dont expect them to work for a specific time rate. this seems to be getting out of hand though so I will just say what the study shows. People will do repetitive tasks better for money but creative things like painting, inventing, making jokes and the like are hindered by money.
[editline]30th January 2011[/editline]
Your a are just lying now. I understand you not making an argument but making pointless post trying to make fun of someone which has nothing to do with anything is just stupid. Im not 14 and I never said I was but this isnt the first time you lied trying to make me out to be something bad so it someone makes changes points. If we are going to spend post time calling each other names then I could use the many things you said or believe against you.[/QUOTE]
Are you fucking serious?
"But creative things like painting, inventing, making jokes and the like are hindered by money." LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOO Source please!
That is fucking good shit. You type like a 14 year old as well, so I wouldn't be surprised.
[editline]30th January 2011[/editline]
You have yet to bring up a single source or case-study supporting ANY of your views.
[QUOTE=Mr_Razzums;27766584]LMFAOOOOOOOOOOOO
[/QUOTE]
Im sorry but really?
[url]http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/motivation.html[/url]
there is one I found real quick
This thread has gotten to the point were insults have become good points
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;27766510]I didnt say I dont expect them to work for a specific time rate. this seems to be getting out of hand though so I will just say what the study shows. People will do repetitive tasks better for money but creative things like painting, inventing, making jokes and the like are hindered by money.
[editline]30th January 2011[/editline]
Your a are just lying now. I understand you not making an argument but making pointless post trying to make fun of someone which has nothing to do with anything is just stupid. Im not 14 and I never said I was but this isnt the first time you lied trying to make me out to be something bad so it someone makes changes points. If we are going to spend post time calling each other names then I could use the many things you said or believe against you.[/QUOTE]
Please a link to said evidence / proof that isn't the movie. The movie disguises biased opinions and unfair tests as fact. [B]This is not actual fact, it is opinion that is designed to get you to think in a similar manner to them.[/B]
You can argue the fact that money hinders creativity, but the (cleverly concealed opinion) fact I can provide is the Minecraft backend update we've made to our servers today, that enables users greater control of their servers (they can upload jars in a sandbox enviroment). If I was doing this for free, I sure as hell wouldn't be bothered to go through the process and I'd just keep to the system we have. But for the sake of business and to come off as even better, we (in the sense of the team at BBS) wouldn't be doing this. It just wouldn't be worth our time or money to even consider it.
Without a valid end to a task, there is no reason to perform it.
[QUOTE=Teddi Orange;27766659]You can argue the fact that money hinders creativity, but the (cleverly concealed opinion)[/QUOTE]
I gave a link to studies you know?
(I replied after you linked it)
What you linked by the way can't seem to make its mind with what it's trying to say:
[quote]Students who competed to solve a puzzle quickly were less likely than those who were not competing to keep working at it once the experiment was over.[/quote]Because the entire idea was that they were only there for the gain. The people who weren't competing and thus had nothing to gain were doing it from pure interest, nothing more.
It then illustrates an invalid principle -
[quote=]
There is an old joke that nicely illustrates the principle. An elderly man, harassed by the taunts of neighborhood children, finally devises a scheme. He offered to pay each child a dollar if they would all return Tuesday and yell their insults again. They did so eagerly and received the money, but he told them he could only pay 25 cents on Wednesday. When they returned, insulted him again and collected their quarters, he informed them that Thursday's rate would be just a penny. “Forget it,” they said — and never taunted him again.[/quote]
This is suggesting that the harrasment in a real world enviroment would suddenly stop and this isn't the case. If people know they can get a reward out of something (thus teaching the kids that they will recieve something for taunting him) he is infact encouraging inappropriate and incorrect behavior. They are [B]more[/B] likely to return to get something.
In short: They were never getting anything out of it in the first place. He offers a reward for doing so, they [B]will[/B] continue to do so.
An example of this is in Viking England. When the vikings invaded, the king at the time (I believe it was Elthred II) just kept paying off the vikings to go away each time. Eventually he decided to stop paying and the vikings decided that they liked what he had gave, and took over the majority of England for themselves.
Ideology is not fact.
Data from several studies have shown that a child who gets rewarded for drawing will draw worse and less often then they did before they got rewarded and didn't enjoy drawing. I think this shows my point.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
