• Taxation, and your views on what people should pay.
    366 replies, posted
[QUOTE=s0beit;25124039]Wrong. Citation needed, you made the proclamation i didn't. Show me how the United States government is a beacon of fiscal responsibility. [B]Okay? How about the education system, as far as I know, the government has been helping fund education. What about scientific research. I don't think you understand, the government sets forth programs, which can be proposed by the president. The government takes all the programs and distributes the funding through percentages. You're treating this like a bunch of high school drop outs handing trillions of dollars. It's called the study of economy and distribution.[/B] Those companies actually should have went under, if big companies who make mistakes to the point of failure don't learn their lesson they will only fail harder in the future and other companies with them. [B]Well, that's childish. I don't know how to argue with someone who takes a approach like "well, they deserve it", it's called competition and the two most dependent multi-million businesses of the house market were falling under with the issues of foreclosures and whatnot. If we lost the companies, there would be no one to help build back up, the house market would've collapsed. Hence why the government stepped in. So "learning their lesson" has nothing to do with it. [/B] Meddling in other countries affairs is not only not necessary, but it caused this war and terrorism in the first place. [B]The war we're in was declared after 9/11, so how did we cause it on purpose? And we have to get by, America is dependent on China and other suppliers of different necessities. It's business. "Meddling" doesn't make sense, we've only done this with Iraq and trying to get them a foundation, and North Korea has been stepping on our toes like pointing missiles at us. There's reasons for meddling, it's not for the hell of it.[/B] I [i]am[/i] everyone. Everyone is me, everyone who lives under the broad umbrella of the United States government will gain as i gain from being critical of our government. [B]Wow. Way to go, it's called doing things for the greater good. I'm glad you're so pent up against socialist ideals.[/B] You support higher taxes for the rich, I'm shocked! :ohdear: *monocle falls off* [B]You dumb? That's what this thread is about.[/B] There are several types of professionals and several schools of thought in relation to economists. Keynesian, Austrian, take your pick. [B]And? I was referring the spending, as I was addressing that concern of yours.[/B] Ok? [B]Reminds me of myself, I always listen to the opposing opinion, and in some cases I agree. I don't sit on my high horse, close my ears and babble. Hence why liberals are for equality, they take everyone's concerns and listen.[/B][/QUOTE] [editline]04:39AM[/editline] [QUOTE=BrickInHead;25124216]conservatives have the most twisted fucking view of the economic stance of the united states, seriously i was talking to a righteously conservative kid who was bitching (At the same time) that the federal government wasn't going to give him enough money to go to school at UConn (35k / year for out of state) and also that taxes are too high i was just like jesus FUCK are you retarded beyond belief op reminds me of this kid ps i'd be totally in favor of a flat rate tax if it was 55% because at that high of a tax rate the poor would get so many benefits it'd even out the rich would leave though lmao[/QUOTE] a-fucking-greed. [editline]04:40AM[/editline] Also s0beit, I'm going to bed. So don't feel victorious as I won't reply to your latest rambling of nonsense. You're not the only person on the planet.
[QUOTE=M4 Sherman;25124272]However, I am opposed to giving hard-earned money to lazy drunks who have never even attempted to gain wealth.[/QUOTE] It's a good thing then, that that isn't the case for the majority of poorer people.
[QUOTE=Bletotum;25121387]I've seen a lot of bickering over this, things like "Tax the rich, they have the money, why not?" . So let's have a well thought discussion on taxing. To me, the only fair way to go about taxes is for everyone to pay the same [b]percentage[/b] of their funds.[/QUOTE] An income tax is stupid (it is the government taking your hard earned money and spending it on what is 90% of the time, useless stuff) to me in the first place in countries that claim they support, "capitalism." Get rid of income tax. Cut unnecessary programs such as the D.E.P. and various other organizations that really don't do much if anything. Make business purchases tax free so that business are more able to expand and hire more workers (thus creating more jobs). Create a Federal Sales tax (to make up for loss in income tax), and give prebates (monthly money) to families who will need aid in paying the sales tax. There are more jobs with people taking home all of their paycheck instead of 75 or 65% of their paycheck and the government will be spending less on unnecessary programs. [editline]12:07AM[/editline] [QUOTE=that1dude24;25124494]It's a good thing then, that that isn't the case for the majority of poorer people.[/QUOTE] This is true and I don't believe that a certain group of people should be ruining something for everyone else. I think that the way we handle handing out welfare should be a tad more strict. Just have agents more carefully examine the situation people are in before handing out welfare and do bi monthly check ups. I believe that the country has a [b]moral[/b] obligation to help out people in need, but so long as these people are at least putting an effort towards being productive members of the community. [editline]12:14AM[/editline] [QUOTE=BrickInHead;25124216]ps i'd be totally in favor of a flat rate tax if it was 55% because at that high of a tax rate the poor would get so many benefits it'd even out[/QUOTE] How does that tax rate benefit poor people? How does taking half of the little money they make [b]benefit[/b] them?
Nice that your argument has turned into no more then petty name calling without a shred of proof to back up anything you have to say. [quote] Okay? How about the education system, as far as I know, the government has been helping fund education. What about scientific research. I don't think you understand, the government sets forth programs, which can be proposed by the president. The government takes all the programs and distributes the funding through percentages. You're treating this like a bunch of high school drop outs handing trillions of dollars. It's called the study of economy and distribution.[/quote] They have been helping to fund poor education, sure. Scientific research is not something i have ever disagreed with. Not once, keep pulling shit out of your ass. The president doesn't control shit, by the way. Politicians do not know much about the economy and they often surround themselves with people who share their opinion. (See: Keynesian Economists) [quote] Well, that's childish. I don't know how to argue with someone who takes a approach like "well, they deserve it", it's called competition and the two most dependent multi-million businesses of the house market were falling under with the issues of foreclosures and whatnot. If we lost the companies, there would be no one to help build back up, the house market would've collapsed. Hence why the government stepped in. So "learning their lesson" has nothing to do with it. [/quote] You have no real concept of how the economy works at all, do you? [quote] The war we're in was declared after 9/11, so how did we cause it on purpose? And we have to get by, America is dependent on China and other suppliers of different necessities. It's business. "Meddling" doesn't make sense, we've only done this with Iraq and trying to get them a foundation, and North Korea has been stepping on our toes like pointing missiles at us. There's reasons for meddling, it's not for the hell of it. [/quote] Learn history. Ask a (liberal) teacher, they spoon feed you everything you know anyway, and for once they agree with me. God. [quote] Wow. Way to go, it's called doing things for the greater good. I'm glad you're so pent up against socialist ideals. [/quote] The "greater good" is an illogical fallacy. [quote] You dumb? That's what this thread is about. [/quote] Hurr derp i know you are but what am i? [quote] And? I was referring the spending, as I was addressing that concern of yours. [/quote] You have missed the point of all of this. [quote] Reminds me of myself, I always listen to the opposing opinion, and in some cases I agree. I don't sit on my high horse, close my ears and babble. Hence why liberals are for equality, they take everyone's concerns and listen. [/quote] Except you disagree with everything i have to say and agree with absolutely nothing, nor do you see things from my point of view. :irony: I don't find any victory in this because this could go on forever, there is no winning in politics and i will never prove to you i am "correct" over your preconceived notions of how the world works. There is only me standing between your mental insanity and the actual world as we know it, somebody has to say something or you people would think there is no opposition to your retarded plans. I'm going to sleep too, have fun!
[QUOTE=JoeyZ;25121856]Rich people don't earn shit, they thrive off other's hard work. Edit: In response to what someone said, I'm not talking about being born into it, I'm talking about people who work over a network of blue collar workers paying them minimum wage and reaping all the benefits.[/QUOTE] This is bullshit. Anyone who works in skilled labour takes much more responsibility and must face much more mental strain at their jobs. Construction workers come home and they're not stressed (I had friends whose parents were workers) ... they're just told what to do at work and don't need to think about what happens at work tomorrow. My father is an executive and everyday he comes home and he is stressed out of his mind. He has to think about the company, do extra work, think about what should to the company and so on. If a company goes bankrupt or something bad happens, who gets blamed. Is it the manual labourers? No. Its the guys at the top and the managers. They take all the shit. [editline]05:52AM[/editline] [QUOTE=BrickInHead;25124216]conservatives have the most twisted fucking view of the economic stance of the united states, seriously i was talking to a righteously conservative kid who was bitching (At the same time) that the federal government wasn't going to give him enough money to go to school at UConn (35k / year for out of state) and also that taxes are too high i was just like jesus FUCK are you retarded beyond belief op reminds me of this kid ps i'd be totally in favor of a flat rate tax if it was 55% because at that high of a tax rate the poor would get so many benefits it'd even out the rich would leave though lmao[/QUOTE] Finland has that kind of tax and its fucking horrible. Kids at a school are mostly taught about socialist values instead of individualist ones. The suicide rates are through the fucking roof and taxing everyone till they can barely do anything is not that great of an idea. Its the most expensive country to live in in terms of consumer goods and with such a high income tax, people have a difficult time getting all their consumer needs.
[QUOTE=Earthen;25125262]This is bullshit. Anyone who works in skilled labour takes much more responsibility and must face much more mental strain at their jobs. Construction workers come home and they're not stressed (I had friends whose parents were workers) ... they're just told what to do at work and don't need to think about what happens at work tomorrow. My father is an executive and everyday he comes home and he is stressed out of his mind. He has to think about the company, do extra work, think about what should to the company and so on. If a company goes bankrupt or something bad happens, who gets blamed. Is it the manual labourers? No. Its the guys at the top and the managers. They take all the shit. [editline]05:52AM[/editline] Finland has that kind of tax and its fucking horrible. Kids at a school are mostly taught about socialist values instead of individualist ones. The suicide rates are through the fucking roof and taxing everyone till they can barely do anything is not that great of an idea. Its the most expensive country to live in in terms of consumer goods and with such a high income tax, people have a difficult time getting all their consumer needs.[/QUOTE] I believe the stress goes from the bottom to the top. I think everyone has it, I just believe the workers get the shit end of the stick most often. But I know how stressed bosses get.
[QUOTE=Earthen;25125262] Finland has that kind of tax and its fucking horrible. Kids at a school are mostly taught about socialist values instead of individualist ones. The suicide rates are through the fucking roof and taxing everyone till they can barely do anything is not that great of an idea. Its the most expensive country to live in in terms of consumer goods and with such a high income tax, people have a difficult time getting all their consumer needs.[/QUOTE] socialist values? FYI to all people here: Scandinavia became extremely wealthy due to their thriving capitalist economy, the social welfare came after that
[QUOTE=thisispain;25125308]socialist values? FYI to all people here: Scandinavia became extremely wealthy due to their thriving capitalist economy, the social welfare came after that[/QUOTE] Finland ain't part of scandinavia. Yes their was an economic boom in Finland, regardless of that many of the richest people in Finland live in other countries.
[QUOTE=Earthen;25125326]Finland ain't part of scandinavia. Yes their was an economic boom in Finland, regardless of that many of the richest people in Finland live in other countries.[/QUOTE] it's considered the best country in terms of living standards, it has high marks in prosperity ratings, and the GDP is through the roof annually so don't even be like "OH WELL FINLAND SUCKS USA #1" or whatever other nation you choose to flaunt
[QUOTE=Earthen;25125262] Finland has that kind of tax and its fucking horrible. Kids at a school are mostly taught about socialist values instead of individualist ones. The suicide rates are through the fucking roof and taxing everyone till they can barely do anything is not that great of an idea. Its the most expensive country to live in in terms of consumer goods and with such a high income tax, people have a difficult time getting all their consumer needs.[/QUOTE] what the hell are individualist values? POOR PEOPLE CAN'T AFFORD TO EAT? NOT YOUR PROBLEM. individualist values lol. if you are against social values go become a fucking hermit
[QUOTE=Earthen;25125262]This is bullshit. Anyone who works in skilled labour takes much more responsibility and must face much more mental strain at their jobs. Construction workers come home and they're not stressed (I had friends whose parents were workers) ... they're just told what to do at work and don't need to think about what happens at work tomorrow. My father is an executive and everyday he comes home and he is stressed out of his mind. He has to think about the company, do extra work, think about what should to the company and so on. If a company goes bankrupt or something bad happens, who gets blamed. Is it the manual labourers? No. Its the guys at the top and the managers. They take all the shit. [/QUOTE] Hahaha, whaaat? I bet you havn't worked a fucking day in your life. When I was working exterior renovation I worked outside in the pouring rain for one solid week not a shred of sunlight, spending the entire day every day moving 60 pound sandstone pavers. Everytime I was up on the fourth floor balcony of that huge lavish mansion, I would be tempted just to jump off because working in those conditions makes you feel like complete and utter shit. Try waking up at 4:30 am, knowing you're going to have to spend the next 8 hours of your day working in the cold rain, and then only having the energy to come home and go to sleep immediately afterward, just to follow up the next day doing the same thing. Whats worse is there are plenty of jobs out there that are worse than that. Who's going to do them, [B]you[/B]? your dad? Lol. Lets just humor your argument for a moment and say a high level corporate job is harder, is it harder to the extent that you get paid 12x as much to do it? At least with construction you're risking your life and health on a day to day basis, is that not worth the same amount of money? One of my coworkers ran his finger through a table saw when it kicked a piece of siding out. He was without work or serious salary for 6 months, and was not elegable for workers comp because he was a contractor. Is that not stressful? Having trouble paying for your rent, bills, and food because you are unable to work? Also, you're using "Skilled Labor" in the wrong context, skilled labor IS construction work. carpentry, stonemasonry, finishing.. all of those are skilled labor and are used all the time in construction. A desk job is not labor. Labor is a specific kind of job, and refers to the grunt work of construction, [I]Skilled Labor[/I] is the more specialized jobs in construction that often require a ticket :eng101:
[QUOTE=Earthen;25125262]Finland has that kind of tax and its fucking horrible. Kids at a school are mostly taught about socialist values instead of individualist ones. The suicide rates are through the fucking roof and taxing everyone till they can barely do anything is not that great of an idea. Its the most expensive country to live in in terms of consumer goods and with such a high income tax, people have a difficult time getting all their consumer needs.[/QUOTE]Oh here we go again. Scandinavian people are some of the most individualistic in the world, but of course you wouldn't know that [b]because you've never met one before.[/b] Finland's suicide problems are specific to Finland, not the system it uses. Norway, Sweden and Denmark have the same or similar systems and manage just fine. Difficulty getting consumer needs? You're just making shit up now, aren't you. Mate, I fucking [B]live here.[/B]
[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;25126362]Mate, I fucking [B]live here.[/B][/QUOTE] you should make a thread called fun with a fin go from there i've given you all you need to succeed
I think the winters and climate of Finland are probably what causes the high suicide rate. Living in low light conditions gives a big toll on morale :saddowns:
[QUOTE=thisispain;25126371]you should make a thread called fun with a fin go from there i've given you all you need to succeed[/QUOTE]I might do that when i'm doing military service, then there might be something in the thread to keep the attention of the far right for a bit longer than it takes for them to type "commie scum!"
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;25126379]I think the winters and climate of Finland are probably what causes the high suicide rate. Living in low light conditions gives a big toll on morale.[/QUOTE]Not really. Suicide rates here tend to be highest at the end of spring, where there's lots of daylight. Norway, for example, rests on the same latitude as us, but has half the suicide rate. The biggest factors tend to be alcoholism, unemployment, being male, social difficulties and so on. As a matter of fact, half of all suicides here involve alcohol. In any case, it's been on the decrease continuously, dropping by a third since the 90's [editline]11:39[/editline] That's odd, broke the automerge somehow :/
Hmm, may be cultural then.
[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;25126414]Not really. Suicide rates here tend to be highest at the end of spring, where there's lots of daylight. Norway, for example, rests on the same latitude as us, but has half the suicide rate. The biggest factors tend to be alcoholism, unemployment, being male, social difficulties and so on. As a matter of fact, half of all suicides here involve alcohol. In any case, it's been on the decrease continuously, dropping by a third since the 90's [editline]11:39[/editline] That's odd, broke the automerge somehow :/[/QUOTE] alcohol is the bane of all things
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;25126452]alcohol is the bane of all things[/QUOTE]France drinks more alcohol than we do per capita, though has far less problems with it. It's a little more complicated than that.
Alcohol is wonderful. In moderation and responsible use. You can abuse alcohol just like you can abuse anything else.
ITT everyone defends the form of taxation that would benefit them most.
[QUOTE=Bletotum;25127733]ITT everyone defends the form of taxation that would benefit them most.[/QUOTE] no not really i'm middle class and don't particularly get very much out of the government yet i would be more than happy to pay a 40% tax rate (having lived independently) if it meant that we could sort out some of the shit in this country and provide reasonable services to the poor what are you, bletotum? middle, upper? [editline]09:27AM[/editline] [QUOTE=Funcoot;25124613]How does that tax rate benefit poor people? How does taking half of the little money they make [B]benefit[/B] them?[/QUOTE] the idea being that with increased tax comes increased social programs and provide greater means to the poor to pull themselves out of poverty; aka, massive state sponsored education for the poor to become competitive in the upper levels of the job market, as well as providing health care and food services that generally elude them completely GRANTED that was only half serious, i'm far more in favor of progressive tax because I actually know how it works. the general idea behind it was "a flat tax could only possibly benefit the poor if it's astronomical"
A suggestion as to how to solve this problem: We should simply eat the babies of the poor. It would prevent there from being more poor people, and therefore they wouldn't need benefites, and it would also solve food supply problems. Babies area succulent and filling dish, and would easily solve malthusian problems.
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;25128769] the idea being that with increased tax comes increased social programs and provide greater means to the poor to pull themselves out of poverty; aka, massive state sponsored education for the poor to become competitive in the upper levels of the job market, as well as providing health care and food services that generally elude them completely GRANTED that was only half serious, i'm far more in favor of progressive tax because I actually know how it works. the general idea behind it was "a flat tax could only possibly benefit the poor if it's astronomical"[/QUOTE] Yeah so the government can decide where that money would be better invested rather then themselves, you see, they lost 50% of economic freedom but they gain everything the government gives them! Poor people are stupid anyway! Win/Win!
[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;25126362]Oh here we go again. Scandinavian people are some of the most individualistic in the world, but of course you wouldn't know that [b]because you've never met one before.[/b] Finland's suicide problems are specific to Finland, not the system it uses. Norway, Sweden and Denmark have the same or similar systems and manage just fine. Difficulty getting consumer needs? You're just making shit up now, aren't you. Mate, I fucking [B]live here.[/B][/QUOTE] I'm Finnish... I visit every summer I read about my country [editline]04:28PM[/editline] [QUOTE=hypno-toad;25126263]Hahaha, whaaat? I bet you havn't worked a fucking day in your life. When I was working exterior renovation I worked outside in the pouring rain for one solid week not a shred of sunlight, spending the entire day every day moving 60 pound sandstone pavers. Everytime I was up on the fourth floor balcony of that huge lavish mansion, I would be tempted just to jump off because working in those conditions makes you feel like complete and utter shit. Try waking up at 4:30 am, knowing you're going to have to spend the next 8 hours of your day working in the cold rain, and then only having the energy to come home and go to sleep immediately afterward, just to follow up the next day doing the same thing. Whats worse is there are plenty of jobs out there that are worse than that. Who's going to do them, [B]you[/B]? your dad? Lol. Lets just humor your argument for a moment and say a high level corporate job is harder, is it harder to the extent that you get paid 12x as much to do it? At least with construction you're risking your life and health on a day to day basis, is that not worth the same amount of money? One of my coworkers ran his finger through a table saw when it kicked a piece of siding out. He was without work or serious salary for 6 months, and was not elegable for workers comp because he was a contractor. Is that not stressful? Having trouble paying for your rent, bills, and food because you are unable to work? Also, you're using "Skilled Labor" in the wrong context, skilled labor IS construction work. carpentry, stonemasonry, finishing.. all of those are skilled labor and are used all the time in construction. A desk job is not labor. Labor is a specific kind of job, and refers to the grunt work of construction, [I]Skilled Labor[/I] is the more specialized jobs in construction that often require a ticket :eng101:[/QUOTE] I specifically said mental strain. Everybody can undergo physical strain and your job does not require you to work yourself to death. Unfortunately some people have to do certain jobs, you didn't work in school or maybe you did and are making money to pay for college. Whatever your reason... anybody can do manual labour. Skilled labour consists of anything that requires a certain degree of education of intelligence. I find it despicable that you simply say that somebody who works in an office doesn't do anything and never feels stress or hardship. Every job is stressful to a certain extent, however, I'm talking strictly about the job, not being without a job. So that analogy about the guy getting hurt is wrong and he probably didn't follow proper safety instructions. An executive gets paid more because he makes more decisions, he has to take much more responsibility and it is a job that requires much more skill than being a construction worker.
Higher percentage taxes for the rich, lower percentage taxes for the poor.
[QUOTE=Sgt Doom;25126414]Not really. Suicide rates here tend to be highest at the end of spring, where there's lots of daylight. Norway, for example, rests on the same latitude as us, but has half the suicide rate. The biggest factors tend to be alcoholism, unemployment, being male, social difficulties and so on. As a matter of fact, half of all suicides here involve alcohol. In any case, it's been on the decrease continuously, dropping by a third since the 90's [editline]11:39[/editline] That's odd, broke the automerge somehow :/[/QUOTE] If people are taught to help others before they help themselves and they have to, that is quite depressing. When someone tells you that you can't follow your own ambitions unless you help everyone else is bullshit. They should be teaching these children to have aspirations and the system/state should be influencing people to seek grandeur.
[QUOTE=s0beit;25129989]Yeah so the government can decide where that money would be better invested rather then themselves, you see, they lost 50% of economic freedom but they gain everything the government gives them! Poor people are stupid anyway! Win/Win![/QUOTE] He said he was only half serious; there's no real need to have a heart attack. Also, that whole sarcastically-agree-with-opponent-in-an-enthusiastic-manner-while-highlighting-the-weakest-points-of-his-thesis strategy is really when Stephen Colbert does it.
[QUOTE=Earthen;25131486]If people are taught to help others before they help themselves and they have to, that is quite depressing. When someone tells you that you can't follow your own ambitions unless you help everyone else is bullshit. They should be teaching these children to have aspirations and the system/state should be influencing people to seek grandeur.[/QUOTE] wait we are talking about finland, not The Fountainhead just so you know.
[QUOTE=s0beit;25129989]Yeah so the government can decide where that money would be better invested rather then themselves, you see, they lost 50% of economic freedom but they gain everything the government gives them! Poor people are stupid anyway! Win/Win![/QUOTE] uh huh you seem to be under the impression that the poor have money to invest lmao
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