The Credibility of Religion - General

Honestly, to put myself at Christian teetering on agnostic. My main question is: Why can't all religions just get along? inb4extremism excuse

[QUOTE=archangel125;29672405]Religion is necessary. Yes, I say religion is necessary. for simple minds that need a light, that need hope when all seems dark ad they can not find courage in their own hearts, religion is necessary. For others, it helps greatly to come to terms with the death of a loved one to believe that there is some existence beyond physical death, and that they may be reunited someday. For these, as well, religion is necessary. Would you take it from them?[/QUOTE] But if you did not teach them about something that is a "light in the darkness" so to speak (God) and told them to believe in theirselves or just believe in the probability that you will probably be able to do whatever it is you are having trouble with, rather than praying, would you not have a similiar, if not better effect?

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;29688563]Honestly, to put myself at Christian teetering on agnostic. My main question is: Why can't all religions just get along? inb4extremism excuse[/QUOTE] Because the foundational texts of world's major religions clearly and repeatedly state that heathens, apostates, atheists and so on are inferior or evil. The first of the Ten Commandments states: "Thou shalt have no God before me". The bible repeatedly endorses the killing and/or subjugation of the enemies of God's 'chosen people'. Religions can't get along (unless heavily watered down by secular values) because they are diametrically opposed at their core.

this aint no islamic center

[QUOTE=archangel125;29672405]Religion is necessary. Yes, I say religion is necessary. for simple minds that need a light, that need hope when all seems dark ad they can not find courage in their own hearts, religion is necessary. For others, it helps greatly to come to terms with the death of a loved one to believe that there is some existence beyond physical death, and that they may be reunited someday. For these, as well, religion is necessary. Would you take it from them?[/QUOTE] I would take the life preserver from a drowning cripple if it were made of faith. [editline]8th May 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=archangel125;29684791]And for those without families?[/QUOTE] If you have nothing to believe in that's real, you're already dead.

The way Ive seen it for the last few years is that religion was simply created by men of power to use as a way to control people, make money and to justify their actions (hence why the bible condones homophobia, rape and slavery). Many people believed what they were told and eventually took it to heart and began to base their lives around it. They then taught what they had been told to their children who then told their children and so on, and thats how we've gotten to this point and thats why religious works are filled with contradictions because over time its been used and spread by many men for different purposes.

[QUOTE=johnlmonkey;29689118]The way Ive seen it for the last few years is that religion was simply created by men of power to use as a way to control people, make money and to justify their actions (hence why the bible condones homophobia, rape and slavery). Many people believed what they were told and eventually took it to heart and began to base their lives around it. They then taught what they had been told to their children who then told their children and so on, and thats how we've gotten to this point and thats why religious works are filled with contradictions because over time its been used and spread by many men for different purposes.[/QUOTE] Nonsense. Rich people in power don't need to create religion, they're already rich and in power. Crazy poor motherfuckers come up with religion.

[QUOTE=Caesar;29674047]I really don't understand why people have such negative opinions about religion. Even if my religion turns out to be completely and utterly false, I am still glad I was brought up in it. I have been taught only good things in it: honesty, charity, being a good citizen, the importance of family etc. Yes, there are some religious people who are complete and utter weirdos/nutcases, but those kinds of people are present in virtually every category.[/QUOTE] And these things (honesty, charity etc.) couldn't have been taught to you if it wasn't for religion? [QUOTE=Caesar;29674047]This is the kind of thing I am talking about: Stripped down to its basics, the Book of Mormon teaches very good principles, similar to the Bible. A comment like that is completely unwarranted and frankly just shows his (Mr. Scorpio's) ignorance of it.[/QUOTE] Ignoring all the fictitious bullshit in it, it also teaches racism. [QUOTE=Caesar;29674047]How in any sense of the phrase, is praying "giving up thinking for your self"? In fact, it promotes thinking for yourself, as the only reason you would continuously pray is if you thought ([I]for yourself[/I]) that you would like to pray. Thoughts precede actions.[/QUOTE] Praying doesn't serve any purpose other than creating a feeling a false sense of self-righteousness for the person praying. I'd rather that the person actually went and did something to actually help solve the issue. [QUOTE=Caesar;29674047]And yes, I reason that there is a God. Just because I haven't come to your conclusion, doesn't mean I can't have my own.[/QUOTE] Sure, you have all the right in the world to believe in fairytales, just don't get offended when someone points out that what you believe in contradicts reality.

[QUOTE=johnlmonkey;29689118]The way Ive seen it for the last few years is that religion was simply created by men of power to use as a way to control people, make money and to justify their actions (hence why the bible condones homophobia, rape and slavery). Many people believed what they were told and eventually took it to heart and began to base their lives around it. They then taught what they had been told to their children who then told their children and so on, and thats how we've gotten to this point and thats why religious works are filled with contradictions because over time its been used and spread by many men for different purposes.[/QUOTE] It was the first attempt at science, a way to explain why the world was the way it was, why bad things happened, why the sun always rose without fail. Then some people with good intentions added in stuff like, look after each other and be nice to others and the like, then it snowballed from there when people started taking it too seriously and now we're left dealing with about 3000-4000 or more years worth of snowballing.

[QUOTE=Snipehamster;29688826]Because the foundational texts of world's major religions clearly and repeatedly state that heathens, apostates, atheists and so on are inferior or evil. The first of the Ten Commandments states: "Thou shalt have no God before me". The bible repeatedly endorses the killing and/or subjugation of the enemies of God's 'chosen people'. Religions can't get along (unless heavily watered down by secular values) because they are diametrically opposed at their core.[/QUOTE] I don't see how secularism prevails. Every major religion flat-out says that everybody else is wrong. How do religious people say, "I know you're wrong, and you'll be punished after death if you don't convert, but I'm not going to try to convince you to change".

Secularism prevails because most folk decide that all religions are about as valid as each other so why not allow other people to have their sky gods.

[QUOTE=bravehat;29691740]Secularism prevails because most folk decide that all religions are about as valid as each other so why not allow other people to have their sky gods.[/QUOTE] If people really thought that, they'd be agnostic.

[QUOTE=bravehat;29691649]It was the first attempt at science, a way to explain why the world was the way it was, why bad things happened, why the sun always rose without fail. Then some people with good intentions added in stuff like, look after each other and be nice to others and the like, then it snowballed from there when people started taking it too seriously a.d now we're left dealing with about 3000-4000 or more years worth of snowballing.[/QUOTE] I think it's a bit of both. Worth bearing in mind, though, that science easily outdates the religions that are prevalent today. By the time the first Bible was written, we'd already seen the rise of several scientifically advanced civilizations. Ancient Greece, for example, had discovered many foundational principles of astronomy and geometry hundreds of years prior. China had an extensive range of traders, historians, scientists and writers at the time Biblical events take place, which begs the question of why God revealed himself to a band of murderous middle-eastern nomads instead of a culture with an established tradition of recording history. [quote]If people really thought that, they'd be agnostic.[/quote] Agnosticism has nothing to do with Theism. Theism/Atheism are states of belief, while Gnosticism/Agnosticism are states of (percieved) knowledge. The vast majority of logically-minded atheists (including 'big names' like Dawkins and such) are also agnostic, but choose not to identify as such because it's irrelevant to their stance.

[QUOTE=fenwick;29691788]If people really thought that, they'd be agnostic.[/QUOTE] ...or they would themselves believe what they wanted to believe and allow others to do the same, whilst disagreeing with their beliefs. That's pretty much how it is here at least.

I used to love participating in religious debates but lately I've had such a low respect for anybody with a "spiritual" position or any belief in the supernatural that I can't even really begin. It's just such flagrant disregard for reality and rationality. If there's anything that separates humans from other animals (as religious people insist) it's our ability to rationalize and remain conscious of our insignificant place in the broad powerful amazing universe. Almost all religion, basically by definition, strips its believers of these abilities.

Religion should be divorced from both politics and the government. Religions vary between citizens, so the government shouldn't have a favorite.

Religion. Honestly, it's just a collection of integrated beliefs. A belief is a belief. You can't prove it, and you should never try to do so, you're missing the point of what beliefs are. Okay, the only way I can really say this is that, religion started in an attempt to explain why we were here. People felt like it answered that daunting question of "What is life?" and well, from that small belief stemmed religion, as other people began to agree because it too answered that daunting question from them. I admire what it was religion tried to do -- I do not admire some of it may have become but that's another matter. I just respect the thought that it was merely trying to explain why things happened and why they're the way they are. So basically, beliefs are dudes, but organised religion in fucked in the head.

[QUOTE=Taishu;29691584]And these things (honesty, charity etc.) couldn't have been taught to you if it wasn't for religion?[/QUOTE] It is very likely that they would not have been taught and encouraged to the same degree as it has been. [QUOTE=Taishu;29691584] Ignoring all the fictitious bullshit in it, it also teaches racism.[/QUOTE] Nope. It does not teach racism. It teaches the exact opposite. Please do not imply it is, when you have no idea. For example, this is a passage from it, saying that all can come unto Christ: [B] "[/B][B]he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free[/B], male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile." (2 Nephi 26:33). And please don't quote back the only possible "racist" passage to be found in the book that I know of. ("And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a [B]skin of blackness[/B] to come upon them[I].[/I]" - 2 Nephi 5:21). That passage refers to spirituaal darkness, not skin colour, church leaders have said. The language used is old. [QUOTE=Taishu;29691584] Praying doesn't serve any purpose other than creating a feeling a false sense of self-righteousness for the person praying. I'd rather that the person actually went and did something to actually help solve the issue.[/QUOTE] If that's your opinion, then fine. But my church, (and I'm sure most of the Christian world) teaches that you pray for help for you to overcome the issue, and then you try to "solve" it yourself. We need to try ourselves, we just pray for assistance and/or comfort (depending on the issue). [QUOTE=Taishu;29691584] Sure, you have all the right in the world to believe in fairytales, just don't get offended when someone points out that what you believe in contradicts reality.[/QUOTE] I apologise if I ever gave the impression that I was offended. I am not offended and I don't see how you believe I am, this thread is labelled a "debate", and that is simply what I am doing - debating. (Even though debating religion is never a very good idea in my opinion). Also, simply demeaning and insulting the other person's beliefs in a debate is not very good sport unless you can back it up.

[QUOTE=Megafanx13;29651779]The main question I have has to do with Christianity and perhaps Catholicism. It seems that in the Bible, many great feats occur (Parting the sea, turning water into wine, burning bush, Virgin Mary, etc.), however I'd like to know why is it only now that God has decided to stop doing these sorts of divine acts. It seems like it only occurred during a time where records of events weren't necessarily credible or verifiable, yet people of faith still regard these things as fact, and I find it intriguing. [/QUOTE] Well, I think that God stopped after Jesus ressurrected and returned to Heaven because He wanted to see if we still had the faith. I think that, as of now, humanity is in the middle of a test. God gave us free will and He wants to see if we'll use it in ways that will get us into Heaven. He hasn't done any divine acts because He wants to see if we'll believe in His Word or His actions alone. It's really a matter of faith. I'm a Catholic, so yeah, I have faith. For Islam, the Quran/Koran/Q'ran is not meant to be taken literally, or so I've been told.

[QUOTE=Barblunder;29691898]I used to love participating in religious debates but lately I've had such a low respect for anybody with a "spiritual" position or any belief in the supernatural that I can't even really begin. It's just such flagrant disregard for reality and rationality. If there's anything that separates humans from other animals (as religious people insist) it's our ability to rationalize and remain conscious of our insignificant place in the broad powerful amazing universe. Almost all religion, basically by definition, strips its believers of these abilities.[/QUOTE] Recognizing insignificance is not a good quality, becoming significant is.

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;29688563]My main question is: Why can't all religions just get along? [/QUOTE] Bad managment. People thought that the Catholics were selling indulgences(which for some, were considered a pass to get less time in purgatory) in order to gain more money. In reality, they were donations to help build St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican and because they were helping religion, it was a good deed and got them less time in purgatory as a bonus. The wrong interpretation caused the Protestant Revolution and bingbangboom, no one gets along. And that's just for Christianity.

I dont get the hubbub with religion or god, I genuinely don't understand why when a cult if 20 profess their faith for Vulcan or Tangaroa they're called delusional idiots by the whole of society and mocked mercilessly, yet when a few million do the same thing then they are congratulated on finding enlightenment by their peers and accepted happily by those around them. It's the same stupid shit just a different God, and to be honest I would honour the dude who believes in Tangaroa or Vulcan, those gods were kicking around for a long time before Yahweh.

[QUOTE=The_J_Hat;29702747]Bad managment. People thought that the Catholics were selling indulgences(which for some, were considered a pass to get less time in purgatory) in order to gain more money. In reality, they were donations to help build St. Peter's Basilica in the Vatican and because they were helping religion, it was a good deed and got them less time in purgatory as a bonus. The wrong interpretation caused the Protestant Revolution and bingbangboom, no one gets along. And that's just for Christianity.[/QUOTE] While some priests used the money gained from indulgences for supposedly "good" motives (Bullshit, all bullshit; but that's because I don't believe in the indulgences BS), there were others who abused these indulgences simply to make money. Either way, I think indulges are a great example of the abuse that religion has perpetrated. For you, they are simply things that lessen the time in the purgatory. What I see is taking advantage of individuals, even some of the most dirt poor ones. Imagine an extremely poor person gathering all the money they have to pay for a recent deceased relative, that's just horrific. I don't care what people personally believe in, but this indulgence crap is among one example of the horrific shit that religion has pulled on people.

Should you condemn an entire belief because of one corrupt person's actions?

[QUOTE=The_J_Hat;29709786]Should you condemn an entire belief because of one corrupt person's actions?[/QUOTE] I'm not condemning the entire belief, I'm condemning the blatant abuse of indulgences which was enabled by the monopoly of religion over society's beliefs and behaviors.

Religion: Who's Imaginary Friend is better..

I'll take evidence over a book any day. There is nothing that suggests the Bible or other fantastical texts like it are anything more than myth. I just wish it didn't take ten God fearing years for me to realize that.

[QUOTE=The_J_Hat;29702561]Well, I think that God stopped after Jesus ressurrected and returned to Heaven because He wanted to see if we still had the faith. I think that, as of now, humanity is in the middle of a test. God gave us free will and He wants to see if we'll use it in ways that will get us into Heaven. He hasn't done any divine acts because He wants to see if we'll believe in His Word or His actions alone. It's really a matter of faith. I'm a Catholic, so yeah, I have faith. For Islam, the Quran/Koran/Q'ran is not meant to be taken literally, or so I've been told.[/QUOTE] But that doesn't really make any sense. Why would God feel it's necessary to have so many people to work through back then (Moses, Jesus, Virgin Mary, etc.) and then just go full stop? That's like someone who worked for half of their life giving to charity and being generous, only to turn into an anti-social, apathetic person who never leaves his house the second half of their life. To elaborate even more, people in the neighborhood would say things like "does he even still live there?" or "Did he die?", comparable to religious questions like "is God even real?".

It's funny that a lot of Atheists here claim that religion causes intolerance amongst different believers, when in reality they're no better themselves. 'You're stupid because you don't believe in (my) god' is equally bad as saying 'You're stupid because you believe in a god'.

[QUOTE=bambouchacka;29717405]It's funny that a lot of Atheists here claim that religion causes intolerance amongst different believers, when in reality they're no better themselves. 'You're stupid because you don't believe in (my) god' is equally bad as saying 'You're stupid because you believe in a god'.[/QUOTE] There will always be people who don't understand how to look at things from another person's point of view. Religion/lack of religion has nothing to do with that.