Piracy? or Try before you buy? - General

I have an example to state my case now. I ordered the Borderlands 2 Special Edition loot chest, and it's been delayed in shipping and won't come until a week after the game comes out. I have already paid for it, I am not being compensated for it, and it is still coming but a week late. This is the type of situation where I believe pirating is justified. I paid for the game (and then some!) and now I'm not going to get to play it when everyone else does because of a mail order error that was no fault of my own. At this point, I as a consumer don't care about 'stealing' a copy of the game, because I personally have already gave them the money I needed to ACTUALLY buy the thing.

[QUOTE=King Tiger;37570501]Yes you are. You are stealing a copy of the game.[/QUOTE] The people who developed the game are not producing anything physical. When I make a copy of the game I am not taking anything from them. For the most part I think there are ways around piracy (without having to be online to play or that bullshit). People pirate because it's more convenient and easy. However buying a game for 5-10 dollars is a lot more convenient then going to find a torrent, risking getting a virus, dealing with phishing sites, etc.

The simple fact of the matter is that humans are by nature bad, and will therefore abuse the system. Look at appulous, it was a popular venue for bootlegging iOS apps and was founded by a disgruntled customer who was fedup with buying bad apps with no way to try them first. Appulous was born and a message sent to apple that appulous would not shut down until Apple included a demo feature built in to the app store. For a while, people were using the network properly, trying and buying iOS apps. But then the network surged in popularity as people were exploiting it to simply pirate apps with the intention of not paying. Frustrated with his network's userbase, the owner shut it down. Appulous was no more. So in conclusion, OP's idea is good and well founded but the undeniable truth is that although there will be many people who pirate to try and buy, there will always be many others who abuse it and dont buy a game after the fact.

[QUOTE=King Tiger;37570501]Yes you are. You are stealing a copy of the game.[/QUOTE] His point that nothing is lost still stands. If you pirate a game because you can't afford it (a.k.a you want to spend your money to something more important), or because you want to try before you buy, in both cases you won't buy the game if you can't pirate it. And what's this about not deserving the game for not affording it? I should feel bad about myself if I cant afford a game?

[QUOTE=Rammlied;37571163]The people who developed the game are not producing anything physical. When I make a copy of the game I am not taking anything from them. For the most part I think there are ways around piracy (without having to be online to play or that bullshit). People pirate because it's more convenient and easy. However buying a game for 5-10 dollars is a lot more convenient then going to find a torrent, risking getting a virus, dealing with phishing sites, etc.[/QUOTE] Apologies for the gender misinterpretation. I think you fail to understand that your argument is flawed. When you acquire a game through purchasing it you near enough most of the time also get an individual license key for that game. That is the item you are technically stealing/ removing it to play the game. In regards to Doomish, his problem in the eyes of the law I believe in the UK is legal. He has a license key(coming) he just doesnt have the data. Of course you could argue its not in his physical possession but whats a week..............

[QUOTE=Rammlied;37571163]The people who developed the game are not producing anything physical. When I make a copy of the game I am not taking anything from them. For the most part I think there are ways around piracy (without having to be online to play or that bullshit). People pirate because it's more convenient and easy. However buying a game for 5-10 dollars is a lot more convenient then going to find a torrent, risking getting a virus, dealing with phishing sites, etc.[/QUOTE] Ah yes. The good old "make up your own definition of stealing" technique. [QUOTE=Winded;37574649]His point that nothing is lost still stands. If you pirate a game because you can't afford it (a.k.a you want to spend your money to something more important), or because you want to try before you buy, in both cases you won't buy the game if you can't pirate it. And what's this about not deserving the game for not affording it? I should feel bad about myself if I cant afford a game?[/QUOTE] I don't see why anything physical needs to be lost for stealing to be considered stealing. And I'm not sure if I understand your "feeling bad" thing. You could apply that logic to any moderately expensive item.

[QUOTE=Rammlied;37559941]I pirate games that I think have unreasonable prices (60 dollar games go to hell), or if it's already been purchased but I can't access it. I'll buy games that are around 10$ because I think it's reasonable and more convenient to just buy it I hate the idea of 60 dollar games, especially when the game itself has shit effort put into it, is unfinished, buggy, and all around shitty. Other than that, I can't justify my piracy, but I don't think I have to. People make money off of me without me spending money, be that telling my friends about the game if I liked it, viewing ads on their website, etc.[/QUOTE] Why are you wasting time pirating these games if they're all buggy and flawed? Seriously, if you express interest in these buggy games, people are going to keep making 'em.

[QUOTE=King Tiger;37576158]Ah yes. The good old "make up your own definition of stealing" technique. I don't see why anything physical needs to be lost for stealing to be considered stealing. And I'm not sure if I understand your "feeling bad" thing. You could apply that logic to any moderately expensive item.[/QUOTE] I don't pay for it if I don't play it, and I don't pay for it if I pirate. From a monetary point of view I am no different either way.

[QUOTE=Rammlied;37577928]I don't pay for it if I don't play it, and I don't pay for it if I pirate. From a monetary point of view I am no different either way.[/QUOTE] You're still stealing a game from someone who invested hours of their life into it. So you still being a massive dick. If you want companies to start making "good" games, with the features you seem to feel are a right not a want, then stop pirating the fucking things. Piracy shows interest in the game, a publisher will usually take the pirated numbers as a sign that people do want this game, and use the sale numbers to justify the price. If you don't pirate it, they will see the game isn't as wanted as before and stop making it the same. it's not hard to work this out. what makes you entitled to these games? You have no right to just take a copy of the game without first paying up. Do you just walk into a cinema instead of paying for your ticket? No? Then why the fuck are you doing it with games. You have no right to the game just because you think it's "bad" or the price is "wrong".

No one simply pirates to try a game out. You may do it once or twice so you can justify your piracy, but most of the time you will pirate it just because you want a free game.

I tend to pirate things I can't easily get hold of, or that will cost a stupid amount of money, Examples are things like the angel beats ost, I'm not willing to pay about £40 for it, that's stupid, also things like photoshop and FL Studio, I'm not any good at either, if I get better at them or decide I can pay for them I will.

[QUOTE=absolalone111;37578290]I tend to pirate things I can't easily get hold of, or that will cost a stupid amount of money, Examples are things like the angel beats ost, I'm not willing to pay about £40 for it, that's stupid, also things like photoshop and FL Studio, I'm not any good at either, if I get better at them or decide I can pay for them I will.[/QUOTE] No, you are stupid. You do not get to decide how much a product costs. The people who make it do. And how does your lack of skill excuse you for paying for something? Oh, I'm bad at driving, I should get a free car. If I get better I'll pay for it. [editline]7th September 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=hexpunK;37577973]what makes you entitled to these games? You have no right to just take a copy of the game without first paying up. Do you just walk into a cinema instead of paying for your ticket? No? Then why the fuck are you doing it with games. You have no right to the game just because you think it's "bad" or the price is "wrong".[/QUOTE] Wow, thanks for that analogy. It's awesome. I always used the "photocopying a magazine" example, but this is even better.

[QUOTE=King Tiger;37579141]No, you are stupid. You do not get to decide how much a product costs. The people who make it do. And how does your lack of skill excuse you for paying for something? Oh, I'm bad at driving, I should get a free car. If I get better I'll pay for it. [/QUOTE] Of course the developers set the price of the program. What was your point? And you eventually gain the skill when using the pirated program. I would never pay for a program I have no former experience of, or experience of any similar programs. And using a program while being bad at using it doesnt put people in traffic at risk.

[QUOTE=Winded;37579794]Of course the developers set the price of the program. What was your point?[/quote] That it's not up to you to say "it's too expensive and should be stolen". [quote]And you eventually gain the skill when using the pirated program. I would never pay for a program I have no former experience of, or experience of any similar programs.[/quote] Then follow tutorials or take classes that teach you? How else are you supposed to improve if you don't use the product? Why would you even want it if you are supposedly so inept? IIRC, Photoshop comes with tutorials built in. [quote]And using a program while being bad at using it doesnt put people in traffic at risk.[/QUOTE] Completely missed the point of my analogy.

[QUOTE=Speedhax;37578140]No one simply pirates to try a game out. You may do it once or twice so you can justify your piracy, but most of the time you will pirate it just because you want a free game.[/QUOTE] [B]In my opinion[/B], a lot of the time people do actually just want to test it.

[QUOTE=Vasey105;37583062]A lot of the time people do actually just want to test it.[/QUOTE] Evidence on this please. I demand proof.

[QUOTE=King Tiger;37584319]Evidence on this please. I demand proof.[/QUOTE] How'm I supposed to get proof on that?

[QUOTE=Vasey105;37586249]How'm I supposed to get proof on that?[/QUOTE] If you don't have any, then how do you know that 'a lot of people' pirate games to test them?

[QUOTE=Megafan;37586602]If you don't have any, then how do you know that 'a lot of people' pirate games to test them?[/QUOTE] Because I know them in real life, or on Steam. The only proof I'd be able to get is quotes. And what good is someone's word who you don't even know? I mean, who you don't know.

I used to pirate always and not even give a fuck, but now I'm older and have more money to throw at things I'm finding it simpler to just buy shit. I still pirate though if a game is published by EA or something because that way when it sucks assholes I can just be like 'welp' and move on without the knowledge that some asshole ripped me off.

[QUOTE=Vasey105;37586751]Because I know them in real life, or on Steam. The only proof I'd be able to get is quotes. And what good is someone's word who you don't even know? I mean, who you don't know.[/QUOTE] So you have nothing but shaky, anecdotal evidence? That doesn't fly around here.

[QUOTE=King Tiger;37588546]So you have nothing but shaky, anecdotal evidence? That doesn't fly around here.[/QUOTE] I don't have evidence, I never posted any, you demanded evidence of something that you really can't get any proof for.

[QUOTE=Vasey105;37588566]I don't have evidence, I never posted any, you demanded evidence of something that you really can't get any proof for.[/QUOTE] If you cannot get any proof for it, then you cannot make that claim. In this forum: [quote]One rule I would like to enforce is that if you're debating and state something as a fact - if challenged you need to produce proof. If you can't you get banned.[/quote] So either recant [url=http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1197218&p=37583062&viewfull=1#post37583062]this[/url] statement or find some evidence.

[QUOTE=King Tiger;37588586]If you cannot get any proof for it, then you cannot make that claim. In this forum: So either recant [url=http://www.facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1197218&p=37583062&viewfull=1#post37583062]this[/url] statement or find some evidence.[/QUOTE] A few pages back I said I'd pirated GTA IV to test it out, you will now find GTA IV in my Steam Library. [QUOTE][Xq28] Vasey105: Do you sometimes pirate games to test them out before you buy them? 甘味 Sandvich ❤: Yeah, sometimes [/QUOTE] There, besides, that was just a general thing that is obvious. It didn't really need any evidence to support it. It's like, and this will sound stupid, it's a general fact, that lots of people like Ice Cream; lots of people don't like Ice Cream. Lots of people exercise, lots of people don't exercise etc. You don't need any sort of proof for these statements, they're just plain common sense.

[QUOTE=Vasey105;37591553]A few pages back I said I'd pirated GTA IV to test it out, you will now find GTA IV in my Steam Library. There, besides, that was just a general thing that is obvious. It didn't really need any evidence to support it. It's like, and this will sound stupid, it's a general fact, that lots of people like Ice Cream; lots of people don't like Ice Cream. Lots of people exercise, lots of people don't exercise etc. You don't need any sort of proof for these statements, they're just plain common sense.[/QUOTE] That is all anecdotal evidence and doesn't actually prove anything. Unless you have hard statistics showing that people tend to pirate games to test them, you are still carrying the burden of evidence, now, hop to it, find us some stats.

It only takes common sense to know that.

[QUOTE=Vasey105;37592130]It only takes common sense to know that.[/QUOTE] Not good enough. Try again. It's not hard to actually research this kind of shit; [url=https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:wsexxy3utZcJ:www.drpeace.com/m493s05/Piracy.doc+&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgLM4A9R0Uk3zla8-_LuRIUH4TkwsXL5EM90UizgbamFphQIcvgrf1y4DuvPZT254sSf0vQfS77WvI9LRQMvUEUtEjCF8HdmakTUrnFzk6XNArE7Oh5D8PDABrCcICWCQCNnXoC&sig=AHIEtbRxDGOGdtv93KQ2v-gEv3POV7ew8A&pli=1]Here[/url] is a study into the reasons and possible causes of piracy from quite a while ago, but it still seems largely applicable. Even just from scanning it I can see that it mentions, when survey most people pirated to avoid paying the normal price of the software. Not to "try it out". If you want to debate in mass debate, put some fucking effort in or get out.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;37592321]Not good enough. Try again. It's not hard to actually research this kind of shit; [url=https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:wsexxy3utZcJ:www.drpeace.com/m493s05/Piracy.doc+&hl=en&gl=uk&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgLM4A9R0Uk3zla8-_LuRIUH4TkwsXL5EM90UizgbamFphQIcvgrf1y4DuvPZT254sSf0vQfS77WvI9LRQMvUEUtEjCF8HdmakTUrnFzk6XNArE7Oh5D8PDABrCcICWCQCNnXoC&sig=AHIEtbRxDGOGdtv93KQ2v-gEv3POV7ew8A&pli=1]Here[/url] is a study into the reasons and possible causes of piracy from quite a while ago, but it still seems largely applicable. Even just from scanning it I can see that it mentions, when survey most people pirated to avoid paying the normal price of the software. Not to "try it out". If you want to debate in mass debate, put some fucking effort in or get out.[/QUOTE] I said [QUOTE]A lot of the time people do actually just want to test it.[/QUOTE] I did not say that the majority of people pirate only to test things, because that's not true, and I did not say that a lot of people pirate for that reason either, I said [QUOTE][B]A lot of the time [/B]people do actually just want to test it.[/QUOTE] Honestly, if you can't even read my points correctly, you can't try to swear in rage at me, again. It's a debate, you don't have to get so worked up about it.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;37591999] you are still carrying the burden of evidence, now, hop to it, find us some stats.[/QUOTE] I can understand defeating someone's point with the whole 'absence of evidence [I]is[/I] evidence of absence' thing but you probably don't have to be a dick about it. He's not obligated to prove his point if you have already gone 'there is no way to prove that' and given a counterpoint because, y'know, that means there is no way to prove that. Any effort on his part to try and improve on his earlier statement would be wasted because several people have said it's not a valid argument.

[QUOTE=Doomish;37592613]I can understand defeating someone's point with the whole 'absence of evidence [I]is[/I] evidence of absence' thing but you probably don't have to be a dick about it. He's not obligated to prove his point if you have already gone 'there is no way to prove that' and given a counterpoint because, y'know, that means there is no way to prove that. Any effort on his part to try and improve on his earlier statement would be wasted because several people have said it's not a valid argument.[/QUOTE] I couldn't have put it better myself.