Being still in highschool and all, i really don't have a lot of money. So i tend to pirate games just to try it out, and as one person said, test how well they run on my computer. After that, i either delete it, never touch it again, or buy it. I used to pirate Garry's mod, and then after like a week, that i wanted to buy it :p. So yeah.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;37661817]you're claiming that I said stealing is okay.
Where did I say that.
What you think I 'insinuate' is so utterly irrelevant that posting that was worthless. We're in a piracy debate, talking about piracy, and you thought I was making claims about examples that aren't software piracy? please, is this how you actually argue?[/quote]
You did say stealing is OK though. Here's your quote from earlier:
[quote]If people cannot afford something, and they pirate it, then there's no issue.[/quote]
[quote]Guess what buddy, UK law has a very clear definition of theft
[URL]http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/60/crossheading/definition-of-theft[/URL]
"A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly appropriates property belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving the other of it;"
is that what piracy is? Sadly, once again, just because [B]YOU[/B] believe piracy is stealing, does not mean that is what the courts think. I'm gonna go ahead and say that I trust the definition provided by law, over the definition that an angry man on the internet provides.
oh and before you claim that there have been amendments to the 1968 act, there haven't been any that equate piracy to stealing, there is a REASON we have a law for copyright infringement, and a law for theft.[/quote]
I've been talking about U.S. law the entire time because I don't know anything about U.K. law.
[quote]what personal story did you use? You said that makers of games don't want people to have their product unless they buy it. You sound like you're on a personal first name basis with every developer on earth, providing absolutely no evidence.
substantiate this claim please.[/quote]
That's not anecdotal evidence. Anecdotal evidence means I use a personal story as evidence. And I already explained what I mean by this. I was referring to developers who use DRM or other anti-piracy measures.
[quote]also your last line is utterly pathetic, seeing as in the definition of larceny, it uses the wording of "THE [B]REMOVAL[/B] OF [B]tangible personal property"[/B]
got any other arguments that relate to the word that different countries use for theft, or are you done?[/QUOTE]
You didn't seem to understand that entire part of my post, where I explained that there are different words used to describe different types of stealing. Yes, larceny is the removal of property. Grand theft auto is stealing a car. Piracy is breaching copyright laws and illegally downloading (it's actually more like receiving stolen property than actual stealing, I'll give you that).
I dont consider piracy bad when people pirate stuff they already have such as to replace a damaged game or program or lost music cd. And if you people are trying to equate piracy to stealing your wrong because if that was the case you should go demonize everyone that watches something on youtube or some online radio or movie site your not paying to watch or listen to that you just goto those websites and watch so do you consider youtube and the like pirating to?
[QUOTE=BFG9000;37669561]Ok so you say that piracy isn't stealing
Lets check your supplied definition of it
"Dishonestly appropriating property from another person with the intent of permanently depriving him of it"
Lets see... So you pirate a game, thats not stealing. But what about the money that goes on the price tag of the game? You, by obtaining a game without paying for it, have just appropriated the game's monetary value, and have also not given the equal amount of money to the copyright holder, so in this way you have just permanently deprived the owner of the money that the game obtained is worth. And dont give me any bullshit like "Its not permanent because they can get the money from other sales" NO. It is permanent because they still dont have the say, ~20-50 dollars that YOU owe them.There, solid proof that piracy is stealing.
Later of course you may choose to buy the game, but by then the price may have already dropped.[/QUOTE]
Except, no study has ever managed to successfully link piracy to lost sales, and several developers have come out and said that piracy [B]IS NOT LOST SALES.[/B]
[URL]http://torrentfreak.com/piracy-is-theft-ridiculous-lost-sales-they-dont-exist-says-minecraft-creator-110303/[/URL]
[URL]http://www.vg247.com/2012/05/19/cd-projekt-pirated-games-are-not-lost-sales-drm-is-a-lot-for-legitimate-users-to-put-up-with/[/URL]
[URL]http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20111101/04460416581/spanish-judge-gets-it-pirated-copies-not-necessarily-lost-sales-may-boost-purchases-later.shtml[/URL]
and once again, potential income is NOT deprivation of a tangible object.
Sorry.
[editline]15th September 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=King Tiger;37674428]You did say stealing is OK though. Here's your quote from earlier:
I've been talking about U.S. law the entire time because I don't know anything about U.K. law.
That's not anecdotal evidence. Anecdotal evidence means I use a personal story as evidence. And I already explained what I mean by this. I was referring to developers who use DRM or other anti-piracy measures.
You didn't seem to understand that entire part of my post, where I explained that there are different words used to describe different types of stealing. Yes, larceny is the removal of property. Grand theft auto is stealing a car. Piracy is breaching copyright laws and illegally downloading (it's actually more like receiving stolen property than actual stealing, I'll give you that).[/QUOTE]
In that quote I said, I use the word piracy. We're in a discussion about software piracy, on an forum based around videogames. I was very clearly talking about video game piracy. That isn't saying stealing is OK, that's you wanting me to be saying it.
[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dowling_v._United_States_(1985)[/URL]
Read that if you still want to believe that copyright infringement is theft. It might be small, but it's very clearly showing a distinction, and that they are different offences.
Both systems of law in both countries distinguish between theft and copyright infringement.
Note that also the law takes great pains not to use the word thief or theft in terms of copyright infringement.
The argument that piracy is theft doesn't have a single leg to stand on.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;37674884]The argument that piracy is theft doesn't have a single leg to stand on.[/QUOTE]
It's not theft, but it's stealing. I never used the word theft.
[QUOTE=King Tiger;37676275]It's not theft, but it's stealing. I never used the word theft.[/QUOTE]
...
theft/THeft/
Noun:
The action or crime of stealing: "he was convicted of theft"; "the latest theft happened at a garage".
are you serious
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;37674884]Except, no study has ever managed to successfully link piracy to lost sales, and several developers have come out and said that piracy [B]IS NOT LOST SALES.[/B]
[URL]http://torrentfreak.com/piracy-is-theft-ridiculous-lost-sales-they-dont-exist-says-minecraft-creator-110303/[/URL]
[URL]http://www.vg247.com/2012/05/19/cd-projekt-pirated-games-are-not-lost-sales-drm-is-a-lot-for-legitimate-users-to-put-up-with/[/URL]
[URL]http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20111101/04460416581/spanish-judge-gets-it-pirated-copies-not-necessarily-lost-sales-may-boost-purchases-later.shtml[/URL]
and once again, potential income is NOT deprivation of a tangible object.
Sorry.
[/QUOTE]
Not potential income
Since you have the game obviously you would have spent money on it if you didnt have the means to pirate
So its LOST income.
Nice try though
[QUOTE=BFG9000;37678674]Not just potential income, but the game itself
The game itself IS a tangible thing because you can play it and interact with it and modify it.
Just because you can duplicate it doesnt mean that using those duplications isnt stealing
Nice try though[/QUOTE]
actually it's copyright infringement, which is why the law distinguishes between the two, and uses the term infringement as you are infringing an agreement, rather than theft, and brands people guilty of infringement as infringers, rather than thieves.
it's also why we have a different law when you deprive someone of something, which is theft/stealing
nice try though.
Read my edited post; I used a different point
[QUOTE=BFG9000;37678792]Read my edited post; I used a different point[/QUOTE]
excellent.
so basically you reworded what I already said was a poor argument in the thread
it doesn't matter how you dress it up, it's not actual sales, it's potential sales, and once again, there are several developers who have come out and said that piracy does not equate potential sales
in fact, you quoted the post where I said that argument didn't work, and made the same argument again.
I'm not trying to say piracy isn't bad here guys, but it's not stealing, it doesn't fit the definition of stealing, deprivation is the key part of theft, and the law agrees with me on this.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;37678671]...
theft/THeft/
Noun:
The action or crime of stealing: "he was convicted of theft"; "the latest theft happened at a garage".
are you serious[/QUOTE]
Theft implies a physical object being taken.
[QUOTE=King Tiger;37679923]Theft implies a physical object being taken.[/QUOTE]
Stealing is a synonym of theft. I don't see how it implies physical at all.
[QUOTE=Cloak Raider;37681373]Stealing is a synonym of theft. I don't see how it implies physical at all.[/QUOTE]
That's the definition of it that I know.
I pirate if it's a big company who will make loads of money off the game anyway.
If it's an indie developer, I buy it if it's really good (Super Meat Boy), or wait for a Humble Bundle.
[QUOTE=3vans;37698166]I pirate if it's a big company who will make loads of money off the game anyway.
If it's an indie developer, I buy it if it's really good (Super Meat Boy), or wait for a Humble Bundle.[/QUOTE]
But on the flip side, there's more money to be lost (considering the size of the investment) and more people that rely on the success of a game.
The problem is that these days, the majority of games just aren't GOOD. Developers/publishers manage to make the games look super amazing and mind blowing. Then you get the game and figure out it was all just false hype and broken promises. The fact that more then half the games I buy end up being not worth the money at all, makes piracy okay in my book.
Pirate it. If you enjoyed it and got good time out of it, buy it.
Oh ya, and about people saying it's theft or stealing. First of all in literal terms it's not. It's a digital copy. It would be like if I walked into a store and used magic to create my own copy in my hand. Some may argue that by pirating games, developers and publishers are losing out of money they could have gotten if they would have bought it. Well, this simply isn't true for most people. I think for most people, games they pirate they pirate simply because it looks interesting and they want to play it. If pirating simply didn't exist, they never would have bought the game in the first place. This way they play the game and at least have a chance of paying for it later on, where as without piracy, they never would have even looked at the game.
[QUOTE=bobbert4ever;37708900]The problem is that these days, the majority of games just aren't GOOD. Developers/publishers manage to make the games look super amazing and mind blowing. Then you get the game and figure out it was all just false hype and broken promises. The fact that more then half the games I buy end up being not worth the money at all, makes piracy okay in my book.
Pirate it. If you enjoyed it and got good time out of it, buy it.
Oh ya, and about people saying it's theft or stealing. First of all in literal terms it's not. It's a digital copy. It would be like if I walked into a store and used magic to create my own copy in my hand. Some may argue that by pirating games, developers and publishers are losing out of money they could have gotten if they would have bought it. Well, this simply isn't true for most people. I think for most people, games they pirate they pirate simply because it looks interesting and they want to play it. If pirating simply didn't exist, they never would have bought the game in the first place. This way they play the game and at least have a chance of paying for it later on, where as without piracy, they never would have even looked at the game.[/QUOTE]
But materializing the game in your hand would involve telepathically extracting data from the in-store copies. Viola, you've just stolen.
Of course later you could Either pay for it or destroy your copy but lets be honest how many people can we actually trust to adhere to that honor code?
[QUOTE=BFG9000;37708928]But materializing the game in your hand would involve telepathically extracting data from the in-store copies. Viola, you've just stolen.
Of course later you could Either pay for it or destroy your copy but lets be honest how many people can we actually trust to adhere to that honor code?[/QUOTE]
That is very true as well. I have purchased a lot of games I have pirated after I enjoyed them, but I think we have to be honest and say the majority don't end up purchasing the games they like. I see little wrong with someone with no money, or no way to get money, such as a young kid, pirating a game. I did that and now as I have grown older I purchase most of my games, usually based off of my tastes in the games I have played in the past. The thing is, I never would have discovered the majority of the amazing games I have without piracy.
There's nothing wrong with me torrenting music that I literally can't find, anywhere, and if I wanted it I'd have to order it (probably $25 plus postage) and then wait four weeks to have it arrive at my house
There's also nothing wrong with torrenting games if I don't have the money to pay for it, or TV shows for that matter.
[QUOTE=bobbert4ever;37708900]The problem is that these days, the majority of games just aren't GOOD. Developers/publishers manage to make the games look super amazing and mind blowing. Then you get the game and figure out it was all just false hype and broken promises. The fact that more then half the games I buy end up being not worth the money at all, makes piracy okay in my book.
Pirate it. If you enjoyed it and got good time out of it, buy it.[/QUOTE]
You need to make better judgements about the games you buy; not that somehow you're entitled to everything and if you're feeling generous, you compensate them for their work.
It's slavery, this mentality of "I'll take everything you make anyway but if you work hard maybe you'll get a treat from me".
[editline]18th September 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=WhatAmI;37709445]There's also nothing wrong with torrenting games if I don't have the money to pay for it, or TV shows for that matter.[/QUOTE]
You're not entitled to games or tv shows. These things are luxury items.
[QUOTE=Jabberwocky;37710902]You need to make better judgements about the games you buy; not that somehow you're entitled to everything and if you're feeling generous, you compensate them for their work.
It's slavery, this mentality of "I'll take everything you make anyway but if you work hard maybe you'll get a treat from me".
[editline]18th September 2012[/editline]
You're not entitled to games or tv shows. These things are luxury items.[/QUOTE]
So you think it's okay if I purchase a game for 60 dollars based off of tons of advertising, gameplay videos, etc. and then it turns out to be crap and I can't even play it for more then 30 minutes and nowadays it's "lol no returns ever" so what I got scammed for 60 bucks and should be ok with that?
And about the luxury items thing, I think someone who is poor should have the ability to have some level of fun. It's just not fair if all you can do in life is pay for your small crappy apartment and some food. Sure, you can easily buy a game and if it's bad it's not that big of a loss, but not everyone can take that kinda loss.
[QUOTE=bobbert4ever;37710960]So you think it's okay if I purchase a game for 60 dollars based off of tons of advertising, gameplay videos, etc. and then it turns out to be crap and I can't even play it for more then 30 minutes and nowadays it's "lol no returns ever" so what I got scammed for 60 bucks and should be ok with that?
And about the luxury items thing, I think someone who is poor should have the ability to have some level of fun. It's just not fair if all you can do in life is pay for your small crappy apartment and some food. Sure, you can easily buy a game and if it's bad it's not that big of a loss, but not everyone can take that kinda loss.[/QUOTE]
You should be smarter about what you buy. If you don't think a game is worth the money then don't buy. You sound like you know more than a bit about games so you should be able to have a good idea if a game is something you'll enjoy before you play it. Otherwise, you can always wait a while for the general (or critical) consensus to be made. The price will only decrease.
Yes people should not be barred from video games because of cost but remember that there are plenty of decent free games as well. You don't need to play the expensive triple-A games to have fun. If you have a computer or laptop (or even a smart phone) with internet access then there are more free games out there than you'll be able to play in a lifetime. They may not all be good but (as you've made clear), paying for a game does not ensure a good time.
[QUOTE=Jabberwocky;37710902]You're not entitled to games or tv shows. These things are luxury items.[/QUOTE]
well, so is everything you can torrent
However, wouldn't piracy still be theft? Even though it isn't deprivation of a product from a company, you are still experiencing their content and work without recompense to them in anyway. I would compare it to sneaking into a movie theater (even though the movie is going to be played anyway.) However, that theft doesn't exactly equate to loss of sales because there was no guarantee of that person purchasing it nor is there an actual loss of a physical object. I still consider piracy to be theft, but then again, I am not going to pay the sums of money required for some of the programs I need to use every day, (1000$ for the adobe suite? Come on...)
[QUOTE=WhatAmI;37711329]well, so is everything you can torrent[/QUOTE]
What does that change? It's still a luxury item, and you still aren't entitled to it just because you "don't have the money". Even at a minimum wage, it doesn't take six months to get $25 for music. In the sate of California, minimum wage is $8. You literally have to work three hours, and you have more than enough money for said music. Also, who cares if it takes four weeks? Everyone else has to wait for that music too, why are you any different?
I guess you're kind of constrained by morals
Maybe that's why I'm different
[QUOTE=WhatAmI;37711753]I guess you're kind of constrained by morals
Maybe that's why I'm different[/QUOTE]
Where did the fact that "I'm constrained by morals" come up anywhere in my post? I was pointing out that your statement is flawed as fuck and you're trying to justify something so that you don't look like a total jack ass. I pirate my fair share of games, but I don't try to say "oh well I don't have any money". I have the money, but I'm a greedy son of a bitch and I don't want to spend it. Yeah, I guess it was kind of like a demo, because I wanted to know if I liked the game or not. But if I did, I didn't buy it. Why? I didn't want to pay. Nothing else. I don't try to hide the fact that I don't like paying for things.
guess so
[QUOTE=Doctor_Dave;37711530]What does that change? It's still a luxury item, and you still aren't entitled to it just because you "don't have the money". Even at a minimum wage, it doesn't take six months to get $25 for music. In the sate of California, minimum wage is $8. You literally have to work three hours, and you have more than enough money for said music. Also, who cares if it takes four weeks? Everyone else has to wait for that music too, why are you any different?[/QUOTE]
Most people don't care about morals, if I can get something for free I'd take it legal or not, why should I spend cash when I don't have to, you might call me an asshole but ultimately I do not care if people lose their job or not.
[QUOTE=Chryseus;37712138]Most people don't care about morals, if I can get something for free I'd take it legal or not, why should I spend cash when I don't have to, you might call me an asshole but ultimately I do not care if people lose their job or not.[/QUOTE]
That doesn't matter, but when you make up an excuse to hide it is what I'm talking about. Like the example I made, it's not impossible to make money for music/games so it really just can't be used as an excuse. I just notice a lot of "I don't have money so it's okay to do it" in this thread and it just tips me off because it's not. You don't need to justify it, you just don't want to pay for it. I mean, is it really that hard to say?
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