Piracy? or Try before you buy? - General

I think your argument is a little [I]loose[/I]

[QUOTE=WhatAmI;38272453]I think your argument is a little [I]loose[/I][/QUOTE] Saying that I'm wrong doesn't prove me wrong. Either tell me who's loosing money when I download something and delete it immediately or when I download something that isn't available to buy or don't make claims like that.

tbh I don't even care really piracy is stealing end of story [editline]1st November 2012[/editline] argue all you want, whatever idc.

[QUOTE=WhatAmI;38272792]tbh I don't even care really piracy is stealing end of story [editline]1st November 2012[/editline] argue all you want, whatever idc.[/QUOTE] Nice sheltered mind you've got there chief. "I'm right you are wrong, end of story, I won't talk about it".

thanks you're cool too I just came into this thread to post what I thought about piracy, it's above you a couple posts. You guys are just trying to make yourselves feel better :) by arguing about it. Cure a little cognitive dissonance going on

[QUOTE=WhatAmI;38272892]thanks you're cool too I just came into this thread to post what I thought about piracy, it's above you a couple posts. You guys are just trying to make yourselves feel better :) by arguing about it. Cure a little cognitive dissonance going on[/QUOTE] If that was really what you were here to do you wouldn't have replied to my post, twice. Call that a dissonance. And why would I argue about it to make myself feel better? First, I'm not even stealing. Second, how would an opinion about me of someone on the internet change the way I feel about myself? All those assumptions you make to reject arguments...

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;38272437]You are missing the point entirely. It's only theft if it's a lost sale. The original doesn't disappear. Nobody is loosing money if I download something, they loose money when they loose a customer.[/QUOTE] They lost the customer the moment they opened up uTorrent. [QUOTE=Silly Sil;38272437]Who the fuck is loosing money if I download something that isn't available to buy where I live? [/QUOTE] Please don't try to pull hypothetical situations into our discussion. With Steam's recent popularity, this is happening less and less with games. iTunes and Netflix cover a lot of everything else. [QUOTE=Silly Sil;38272437]I never said I am. You had this argument few times I see and now you're just seeing what you want to see. The point is "I have a lot of legit games". And if you want me to take you seriously don't try make a point that I have bought all my games on sales.[/QUOTE] Saying you have "legit games" does not give you any credibility. I buy [i]all[/i] my games, I'm no more qualified to make these claims than you are. If you want me to take [i]you[/i] seriously, don't try to convince me that your point of view is true on the idea that you've decided to buy games the way they were intended. I see what other people are trying to say, and none of them have made any sense. Every argument for piracy has fallen back on the idea that they deserve these games for unknown reasons. Again, "Everyone wants something for nothing."

[QUOTE=Agoat;38273423]They lost the customer the moment they opened up uTorrent.[/QUOTE] What are you talking about? How? I still bought a lot of games. How did they lose anything? Explain this. [QUOTE=Agoat;38273423]Please don't try to pull hypothetical situations into our discussion. With Steam's recent popularity, this is happening less and less with games. iTunes and Netflix cover a lot of everything else.[/QUOTE] Piracy isn't only games but movies and TV series. And believe it or not, not everyone lives in America. And why wouldn't I pull hypothetical situations into our discussion? You're the one making the claim that even opening uTorrent or downloading something makes someone lose money. I'm sorry that a hypothetical sytuation proves you wrong. [QUOTE=Agoat;38273423]Saying you have "legit games" does not give you any credibility. I buy [I]all[/I] my games, I'm no more qualified to make these claims than you are. If you want me to take [I]you[/I] seriously, don't try to convince me that your point of view is true on the idea that you've decided to buy games the way they were intended.[/QUOTE] It's not about credibility. I didn't have to buy those games, I could have just played the pirated version. It's about showing that there actually are people who try out a pirated version and then buy the original. [QUOTE=Agoat;38273423]I see what other people are trying to say, and none of them have made any sense. Every argument for piracy has fallen back on the idea that they deserve these games for unknown reasons. Again, "Everyone wants something for nothing."[/QUOTE] If you want to make an argument against it talk to the people saying it. That ain't me. And me not buying a game after I tried the pirated version and decided that I don't like it is as much theft as deciding that I'm not gonna buy a game after playing a demo or watching a trailer.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;38273561]What are you talking about? How? I still bought a lot of games. How did they loose anything?[/QUOTE] If you pirate game A, but buy game B, only the people that published game B have received money. [QUOTE=Silly Sil;38273561]Piracy isn't only games but movies and TV series. And believe it or not, not everyone lives in America. And why wouldn't I pull hypothetical situations into our discussion? You're the one making the claim that even opening uTorrent or downloading something makes someone loose money. I'm sorry that a hypothetical sytuation proves you wrong.[/QUOTE] Your "what-if" argument is a completely different issue that doesn't prove anything wrong. If anything, it's justification to something that is bad. Many people think murder is okay in self-defense. That does not mean murder is okay in all situations. [b]I'm very well aware that piracy extends beyond video games, but if you would read the next sentence in my previous post you'd already know that. Do not skim my posts if you're going to debate with me.[/b] [QUOTE=Silly Sil;38273561]It's not about credibility. I didn't have to buy those games, I could have just played the pirated version. It's about showing that there actually are people who try out a pirated version and then buy the original. If you want to make an argument against it talk to the people saying it. That ain't me. And me not buying a game after I tried the pirated version and decided that I don't like it is as much theft as deciding that I'm not gonna buy a game after playing a demo or watching a trailer.[/QUOTE] Ultimately, that's a purchase. The delivery method is irrelevant when the game is paid for.

man this argument is kind of cute

[QUOTE=Agoat;38273668]If you pirate game A, but buy game B, only the people that published game B have received money.[/QUOTE] But I pirated the same game that I later bought. Who lost a customer and money? [QUOTE=Agoat;38273668]Your "what-if" argument is a completely different issue that doesn't prove anything wrong. If anything, it's justification to something that is bad. Many people think murder is okay in self-defense. That does not mean murder is okay in all situations.[/QUOTE] I'm not saying that piracy is always okay. How did you come up with this? Stop assuming things. [QUOTE=Agoat;38273668]I'm very well aware that piracy extends beyond video games, but if you would read the next sentence in my previous post you'd already know that. Do not skim my posts if you're going to debate with me.[/QUOTE] I started replying to that point before I read that last sentence and didn't edit it out, calm down. My point still was "not everything is available to everyone, while a pirated product might". Not "there are more things to pirate than games". But yeah, sorry. [QUOTE=Agoat;38273668]Ultimately, that's a purchase. The delivery method is irrelevant when the game is paid for.[/QUOTE] So I don't get it now. Is pirating a game, trying it out and buying it okay or is it still wrong and theft?

Not to try and jump into the argument or derail it at all, but I wanted to point out this: [QUOTE=Silly Sil;38272700][QUOTE=WhatAmI;38272453]I think your argument is a little [I]loose[/I][/QUOTE]Saying that I'm wrong doesn't prove me wrong. Either tell me who's loosing money when I download something and delete it immediately or when I download something that isn't available to buy or don't make claims like that.[/QUOTE] He was saying you're using the wrong word. Loose is the opposite of tight. Like a loose screw, or a loose pair of pants. Lose is; when you lose something, you no longer have it. Regardless of whether it's just lost somewhere, or it was taken from you through theft, accident, etc.. A good rule of thumb for using lose, is if you can change the wording to use 'lost' instead and it still makes sense, you should use lose. An example for this situation: "He doesn't [i]lose[/i] a sale from this." vs "He hasn't [i]lost[/i] a sale from this." I know English is silly, but those words seem to cause the most confusion among non-native speakers and I like trying to help people.

Fixed.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;38273783]Is pirating a game, trying it out and buying it okay or is it still wrong and theft?[/QUOTE] That's assuming people buy it. In a perfect world everything would be paid for, but that's not the case. How much playtime is "trying"? Playing through half a game and deciding you don't want to pay for it is not fair. I honestly believe the "try before you buy" is an excuse to not pay for it. [QUOTE=Silly Sil;38273783]I'm not saying that piracy is always okay. How did you come up with this? Stop assuming things.[/QUOTE] It's hard not to when I already know you're going to put every spin you can on the issue. Edit: Sorry for the late reply. Was at work.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;38273783]But I pirated the same game that I later bought. Who lost a customer and money?[/QUOTE] If you buy it later. Assuming you buy it at the same price as it was when it was new, because otherwise you're pirating so you can get it now without actually paying for that privilege.

[QUOTE=catbarf;38279475]If you buy it later. Assuming you buy it at the same price as it was when it was new, because otherwise you're pirating so you can get it now without actually paying for that privilege.[/QUOTE] Correct. Buying it for $5 later during a Steam sale is not fair to anyone.

As a student, I really don't have the time to buy stuff regularly. I definitely would buy the products if I wasn't paying for both school and rent/living off student loans etc. But, I've been using a pirated music daw for a few years, and after trying many different programs, I've decided I'm comfortable with the first program and am indeed ready to spend $300+ on it, as well as $300+ on VST software.

[QUOTE=killa101;38279787]As a student, I really don't have the time to buy stuff regularly. I definitely would buy the products if I wasn't paying for both school and rent/living off student loans etc. But, I've been using a pirated music daw for a few years, and after trying many different programs, I've decided I'm comfortable with the first program and am indeed ready to spend $300+ on it, as well as $300+ on VST software.[/QUOTE] Many companies offer student discounts. You should look into it, there could be some serious savings.

[QUOTE=killa101;38279787]As a student, I really don't have the time to buy stuff regularly. I definitely would buy the products if I wasn't paying for both school and rent/living off student loans etc. But, I've been using a pirated music daw for a few years, and after trying many different programs, I've decided I'm comfortable with the first program and am indeed ready to spend $300+ on it, as well as $300+ on VST software.[/QUOTE] As Agoat said, buy student licences. $2000 or so for Adobe Design Premium CS as a student with little income is a bit far out of reach, but if you got proof of being enrolled in a school, college or university you can drop that down to as little as $300 for Design Premium itself. Done so myself and haven't regretted it.

[QUOTE=Agoat;38279119]That's assuming people buy it. In a perfect world everything would be paid for, but that's not the case. How much playtime is "trying"? Playing through half a game and deciding you don't want to pay for it is not fair. I honestly believe the "try before you buy" is an excuse to not pay for it.[/QUOTE] Dude I had a pirated version of Skyrim. I played it for 30 minutes, uninstalled the pirated copy and bought original on steam (didn't wait months for a steam sale). Yeah great excuse for not paying for games. Playing a demo of a game and deciding that you don't want to buy it is as much theft as playing a pirated version for a short time, deciding that you don't want it, uninstalling it and not buying the original. Would you call a guy who decides that he doesn't want to buy a game after playing the demo a "thief"? Same for a guy that takes a car for a test drive before buying it and deciding that he doesn't want it. [QUOTE=Agoat;38279119]It's hard not to when I already know you're going to put every spin you can on the issue. [/QUOTE]Again stupid assumption. Pirating a game, playing it longer than it takes you to understand whether or not you like it, provided the game is available to you legally is stealing. I'm not arguing against that. But your claims like "opening utorrent makes someone loose money" are ridiculous. [QUOTE=catbarf;38279475]If you buy it later. Assuming you buy it at the same price as it was when it was new, because otherwise you're pirating so you can get it now without actually paying for that privilege.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Agoat;38279720]Correct. Buying it for $5 later during a Steam sale is not fair to anyone.[/QUOTE] Not that I have a table in excel with a list of all the games that I have ever pirated and that I cross check it with steam sales every day. But now buying games during steam sales is stealing too? I don't get it. Okay 2 situations. Situation 1. I pirate game "A" that's worth 40$. This game is going to give me experience B. Now if I buy the game on steam for 40$ it's okay. But if I wait for a steam sale and then pay for it 5$, it's stealing. Situation 2. I don't buy the game for 40$ and I don't pirate it either. I wait for a steam sale and get game "A" for 5$. This game gives me experience B. Not stealing. In both situations I get experience B for 5$. One is stealing one is completely moral. Explain please. Either I can get entertainment B for 5$ or it's stealing. It can't be both.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;38280516]Dude I had a pirated version of Skyrim. I played it for 30 minutes, uninstalled the pirated copy and bought original on steam (didn't wait months for a steam sale). Yeah great excuse for not paying for games. [/QUOTE] I'm sure you did. Did I mention I have a Ferrari? [QUOTE=Silly Sil;38280516]Playing a demo of a game and deciding that you don't want to buy it is as much theft as playing a pirated version for a short time, deciding that you don't want it, uninstalling it and not buying the original. Would you call a guy who decides that he doesn't want to buy a game after playing the demo a "thief"? Same for a guy that takes a car for a test drive before buying it and deciding that he doesn't want it. Again stupid assumption. Pirating a game, playing it longer than it takes you to understand whether or not you like it, provided the game is available to you legally is stealing. I'm not arguing against that. But your claims like "opening utorrent makes someone loose money" are ridiculous.[/QUOTE] Opening a program does not make people lose money. You're right, that's pretty dumb. The intentions with the program are (obviously) what has lost the sale. I'm not saying that someone that plays for a little while then doesn't want it is a thief. I'm saying that people aren't going to limit themselves. They're going to play quite a bit of the game (if not the entire thing). Good intentions or not, I don't think a lot of people buy it. [QUOTE=Silly Sil;38280516]Not that I have a table in excel with a list of all the games that I have ever pirated and that I cross check it with steam sales every day. But now buying games during steam sales is stealing too? I don't get it.[/QUOTE] Steam sales are great. Pirating a game at launch then waiting for it to be $5 on Steam is not. You've had me very close to buying your point of view, but you keep relying on misrepresenting what I've said. If you truly believe in what you're saying, stop going for zings and be straightforward.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;38280516] Not that I have a table in excel with a list of all the games that I have ever pirated and that I cross check it with steam sales every day. But now buying games during steam sales is stealing too? I don't get it. [/QUOTE] You pirate the game when it's $60. You play it through. Later, when it's down to $10, you buy it. You have pirated the game when it was worth one price. You have paid a significantly lower price, later, instead. You have gotten the advantage of playing it at release price- that is, you got it ASAP- while still taking advantage of the later sale price. If you want to play it when it's at full retail price, buy it. If it's not worth that much to you, don't buy it and don't pirate it. Pirating it and then paying a pittance for it later isn't giving the creator due compensation, because they have a right to decide what their product is worth and when. Here's a hypothetical example: The game costs $60 on release day. Five years later, it's $1 in some bargain bin. Are you really insisting that if you pirate on release day, then pay a buck for a legitimate copy five years later, that it's justified and way better than if you end up never paying for a copy?

Regardless of whether you buy the game afterwards or if you were never going to buy the game anyway, you're not allowed to download a full copy of the game/movie/book/etc. Ultimately, it's the right holder who decides how their property is used. You can try to justify to yourself that's it's ok because you obtained the game legally later but that doesn't absolve you of the fact that you did something wrong before. There's no guarantee that anyone will eventually pay the right people back so such claims that they will don't hold any meaning regardless of individual morality or history. In my opinion, the closest to justifying the lack of a lost sale is if there is no way for you to legally purchase a playable version of a game or watchable version of a movie, etc. An example would be if you wanted an obscure foreign game (in a language you don't understand) that will never be translated and made available to purchase legally.

[QUOTE=Agoat;38281322]I'm sure you did. Did I mention I have a Ferrari?[/QUOTE] I can link you my steam with skyrim on it. Like I said I have played either a demo or a pirated version of most games that I've bought legally (that aren't multiplayer based). People like me do exist. I'm sorry that I can't give you proof that would satisfy you but I don't record my screen 24/7. [QUOTE=Agoat;38281322]Opening a program does not make people lose money. You're right, that's pretty dumb. The intentions with the program are (obviously) what has lost the sale. I'm not saying that someone that plays for a little while then doesn't want it is a thief. I'm saying that people aren't going to limit themselves. They're going to play quite a bit of the game (if not the entire thing). Good intentions or not, I don't think a lot of people buy it.[/QUOTE] Well at least I got you to a point where you see that not every pirated copy is a lost sale, therefore theft. Now we could argue percentages of people who do it, but I have no idea or data on this. So I'm not going to make baseless claims. [QUOTE=Agoat;38281322]Steam sales are great. Pirating a game at launch then waiting for it to be $5 on Steam is not. [/QUOTE]You just repeated what I said. What's the reason for one thing being wrong and other right? Time? If that's the reason then I'd agree if we were talking about waiting years and years for the game to age and have the price reduced permanently. But this is a sale. The price goes down for a day and then the game costs again what it used to. But okay, "Pirating a game at launch then waiting for it to be $5 on Steam" is just buying good conscience, I agree with that situation. Then again, who the hell would do it? You seem very fast to assume that not many people pirate games to try them out and then the buy originals, yet you make an assumption that they monitor steam sales and wait for reduced price? That's even less believable. [QUOTE=Agoat;38281322] You've had me very close to buying your point of view, but you keep relying on misrepresenting what I've said. If you truly believe in what you're saying, stop going for zings and be straightforward.[/QUOTE] I'm not going for zings. I'm trying to make my points as clear as possible. If you take it that way, it's not my intention. [QUOTE=catbarf;38281373]You pirate the game when it's $60. You play it through. Later, when it's down to $10, you buy it. You have pirated the game when it was worth one price. You have paid a significantly lower price, later, instead. You have gotten the advantage of playing it at release price- that is, you got it ASAP- while still taking advantage of the later sale price. If you want to play it when it's at full retail price, buy it. If it's not worth that much to you, don't buy it and don't pirate it. Pirating it and then paying a pittance for it later isn't giving the creator due compensation, because they have a right to decide what their product is worth and when. Here's a hypothetical example: The game costs $60 on release day. Five years later, it's $1 in some bargain bin. Are you really insisting that if you pirate on release day, then pay a buck for a legitimate copy five years later, that it's justified and way better than if you end up never paying for a copy?[/QUOTE] Like I said above. If you're talking about the game costing less due to aging, I agree with you. But we were talking about steam sales that take 1 or 2 days. And then the price is back to 60$. And I get the "taking advantage of later sale price". Then again you're making the example pretty extreme. Pirating the game at release and then waiting years to buy it on sale. You're really making it black and white. As far as your examples go, I agree. Not everything is that binary tho. [QUOTE=Jabberwocky;38281400]Regardless of whether you buy the game afterwards or if you were never going to buy the game anyway, you're not allowed to download a full copy of the game/movie/book/etc. Ultimately, it's the right holder who decides how their property is used. You can try to justify to yourself that's it's ok because you obtained the game legally later but that doesn't absolve you of the fact that you did something wrong before. There's no guarantee that anyone will eventually pay the right people back so such claims that they will don't hold any meaning regardless of individual morality or history. [/QUOTE] Umm... the right holder is not the guy who's going to tell me what's right or wrong. You're not going to tell me that if there was a point in terms of use agreement that I can't use saves, even tho the option is implemented, it would be immoral if I did. As long as I've paid for the game (without it loosing worth due to time), I don't see anything wrong or immoral in what I'm doing. And by no means I'm saying that everyone buys every game after pirating and deciding he likes it. Of course there is no guarantee. I'm just saying that not every piracy is theft.

I only pirate programs, because a blowing 500+ bucks on something I'll use once in a while won't serve the purpose of buying it.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;38281972]I can link you my steam with skyrim on it. Like I said I have played either a demo or a pirated version of most games that I've bought legally (that aren't multiplayer based). People like me do exist. I'm sorry that I can't give you proof that would satisfy you but I don't record my screen 24/7.[/QUOTE] I don't think anyone cares that you bought the Elder Scrolls. You sitting here and saying that you bought it means absolutely nothing. I live in a mansion. [QUOTE=Silly Sil;38281972]Well at least I got you to a point where you see that not every pirated copy is a lost sale, therefore theft. Now we could argue percentages of people who do it, but I have no idea or data on this.[/QUOTE] No, you've got me only on paper. I'm telling you in practice it does not work the way you think it does. I'd explain again, but I've detailed in other posts. [QUOTE=Silly Sil;38281972]So I'm not going to make baseless claims.[/QUOTE] Don't stop on my account! [QUOTE=Silly Sil;38281972]You just repeated what I said. What's the reason for one thing being wrong and other right? Time? If that's the reason then I'd agree if we were talking about waiting years and years for the game to age and have the price reduced permanently. But this is a sale. The price goes down for a day and then the game costs again what it used to. But okay, "Pirating a game at launch then waiting for it to be $5 on Steam" is just buying good conscience, I agree with that situation. Then again, who the hell would do it? You seem very fast to assume that not many people pirate games to try them out and then the buy originals, yet you make an assumption that they monitor steam sales and wait for reduced price? That's even less believable. Like I said above. If you're talking about the game costing less due to aging, I agree with you. But we were talking about steam sales that take 1 or 2 days. And then the price is back to 60$. And I get the "taking advantage of later sale price". Then again you're making the example pretty extreme. Pirating the game at release and then waiting years to buy it on sale. You're really making it black and white. As far as your examples go, I agree. Not everything is that binary tho. [/QUOTE] If someone pirates a game that has launched at $60 then waits until it drops to $40 to buy it, that's $20 lost. Yeah, they bought it, but the developer has been cheated out of $20 that they obviously earned. I'm glad you agree with me.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;38281972] Umm... the right holder is not the guy who's going to tell me what's right or wrong. You're not going to tell me that if there was a point in terms of use agreement that I can't use saves, even tho the option is implemented, it would be immoral if I did. As long as I've paid for the game (without it loosing worth due to time), I don't see anything wrong or immoral in what I'm doing. And by no means I'm saying that everyone buys every game after pirating and deciding he likes it. Of course there is no guarantee. I'm just saying that not every piracy is theft.[/QUOTE] I've already mentioned before that paying for it afterwards doesn't absolve you of what you've done previously (unless the right holders say that's the case). EVERY act of piracy is against the law regardless of what you do afterwards. The right holder decides how their property is used regardless of what you think about it. If you misuse it then they have a right to come down on you. Whether you get a slap on the wrist or serve time is up to the justice system. And why shouldn't they? It's theirs. They're just letting you use it. If you buy a copy, you don't "own" a copy. You're merely buying the permission to use it in a certain way. I think terms and conditions clearly state that now.

[QUOTE=Agoat;38282620]I don't think anyone cares that you bought the Elder Scrolls. You sitting here and saying that you bought it means absolutely nothing. I live in a mansion.[/QUOTE] Did you miss the part where I said that I can prove to you that I do have it on steam? Your scepticism is great and all but the evidence you want doesn't exist. Nobody records their screen 24/7. [QUOTE=Agoat;38282620]No, you've got me only on paper. I'm telling you in practice it does not work the way you think it does. I'd explain again, but I've detailed in other posts.[/QUOTE] How the hell doesn't it work in practice if I do it all the time? And again, I'm not claiming that everyone else does the same. [QUOTE=Agoat;38282620]If someone pirates a game that has launched at $60 then waits until it drops to $40 to buy it, that's $20 lost. Yeah, they bought it, but the developer has been cheated out of $20 that they obviously earned. I'm glad you agree with me.[/QUOTE] I realize there is something like decline of worth. And that the product is worth less as the time passes. So yeah, I do agree here. [QUOTE=Jabberwocky;38285163]I've already mentioned before that paying for it afterwards doesn't absolve you of what you've done previously (unless the right holders say that's the case). EVERY act of piracy is against the law regardless of what you do afterwards. The right holder decides how their property is used regardless of what you think about it. If you misuse it then they have a right to come down on you. Whether you get a slap on the wrist or serve time is up to the justice system. And why shouldn't they? It's theirs. They're just letting you use it. If you buy a copy, you don't "own" a copy. You're merely buying the permission to use it in a certain way. I think terms and conditions clearly state that now.[/QUOTE] It might be illegal for me to use a color filter for a game because the right holder cares so much about his artistic integrity so he disallowed it but it's not immoral or wrong. You seriously gonna sit there and tell me that it's immoral, wrong and against the law for me to download a pirated version of a game [I]after [/I]I [I]legally [/I]bought it and after it turned out that the DRM is making it [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmJHmf9AJKY"]impossible[/URL] for me to play it? Fuck that.

In my opinion downloading stuff shouldn't be considered a crime. It's crime when you are the one who shares the material with the public (uploading pirated songs / games, torrents, etc).

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;38285770]Did you miss the part where I said that I can prove to you that I do have it on steam?[/QUOTE] That doesn't buy you credibility, though. The only thing that gets you credibility here is your words. [QUOTE=Silly Sil;38285770]How the hell doesn't it work in practice if I do it all the time? And again, I'm not claiming that everyone else does the same.[/QUOTE] Right! I'm saying that most people won't do that. I want developers to get the support they deserve. [QUOTE=Silly Sil;38285770]I realize there is something like decline of worth. And that the product is worth less as the time passes. So yeah, I do agree here.[/QUOTE] I'm glad we can agree on something.