Piracy? or Try before you buy? - General

[QUOTE=Agoat;38288221]Right! I'm saying that most people won't do that. I want developers to get the support they deserve.[/QUOTE] But I'm not trying to make this a base to say that piracy is okay and that only few people don't pay for games. A lot of people just don't give a shit that someone deserves money for their work that they are enjoying. And yeah I want developers to get the support they deserve too. That's why I buy those games even tho I already have a pirated copy. On the other hand I don't want to give my money to people who don't deserve it. That's why I try things before I buy them. You've mentioned the "price" argument before and I agree on that too. Games are not a thing that you can't live without, if the price is too high, don't buy it. But yeah, like I said, not all piracy is theft. There is the trying out things and there is the product being unavailable. And then there is the issue of pirates providing better service. I actually agree with a lot of things from this article [URL]http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/114391-Valves-Gabe-Newell-Says-Piracy-Is-a-Service-Problem[/URL]

[QUOTE=Antdawg;38279904]As Agoat said, buy student licences. $2000 or so for Adobe Design Premium CS as a student with little income is a bit far out of reach, but if you got proof of being enrolled in a school, college or university you can drop that down to as little as $300 for Design Premium itself. Done so myself and haven't regretted it.[/QUOTE] Fuck ever paying $300 for a single program No way

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;38285770] It might be illegal for me to use a color filter for a game because the right holder cares so much about his artistic integrity so he disallowed it but it's not immoral or wrong. You seriously gonna sit there and tell me that it's immoral, wrong and against the law for me to download a pirated version of a game [I]after [/I]I [I]legally [/I]bought it and after it turned out that the DRM is making it [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wmJHmf9AJKY"]impossible[/URL] for me to play it? Fuck that.[/QUOTE] Leaving aside whatever example of a silly restriction that companies or developers want to impose, let's come back to the big issue at hand: Do you think it is unreasonable for a company to demand that you pay them in order to be allowed to use their product? Keep in mind that paying them is not the same as probabilities that you'll pay them later or conditional promises that you'll pay the later. If you say that price is an issue for something that you may not have an idea that you'll enjoy I believe that is enough information out there to form a good idea of whether you will enjoy something. The onus is up to you to research something before you buy it. And as you've mentioned before, there are sales (in particular, Steam) that allow you to legally obtain games for prices lower than what lunch might cost. Why not wait for them? Is there a reason that you must play a game close to release date, enough reason to commit a crime and use something in a way you don't have permission to do so?

[QUOTE=Jabberwocky;38295624]Leaving aside whatever example of a silly restriction that companies or developers want to impose, let's come back to the big issue at hand: Do you think it is unreasonable for a company to demand that you pay them in order to be allowed to use their product? Keep in mind that paying them is not the same as probabilities that you'll pay them later or conditional promises that you'll pay the later.[/QUOTE] No. But they are not the ones telling me what's immoral or wrong. If the product is worth my money, then I'll buy it. If it's not, I won't continue using it. [QUOTE=Jabberwocky;38295624]If you say that price is an issue for something that you may not have an idea that you'll enjoy I believe that is enough information out there to form a good idea of whether you will enjoy something. The onus is up to you to research something before you buy it. And as you've mentioned before, there are sales (in particular, Steam) that allow you to legally obtain games for prices lower than what lunch might cost. Why not wait for them? Is there a reason that you must play a game close to release date, enough reason to commit a crime and use something in a way you don't have permission to do so?[/QUOTE] Why the fuck would I wait years for a game to be on sale so that I can wager my money (less than I would otherwise) on something that I might not like, therefore loose my money on something that I won't use? I won't gonna wager any money, regardless if it's the full price or reduced during sale. I'll see for myself if I like the game, using a demo or otherwise, close to the release date, and if I like it, I'll buy it right away, not later. And seriously the argument "well you can look up gameplays and reviews, you don't need to actually play the game yourself to know whether you will like it or not" is bullshit. Games are interactive while reviews and videos are not. You can't be certain if you don't try it yourself. If breaking the law is what it takes for me not to wager my money because some company doesn't want to release a demo, then so fucking be it. Frankly I don't give a fuck about laws that disallow things that aren't morally wrong. Testing the game yourself is just as much morally wrong as watching a trailer for a movie or taking a car for a test drive.

[QUOTE=WhatAmI;38294592]Fuck ever paying $300 for a single program No way[/QUOTE] Dude, Adobe CS Design Premium has 7 major programs (Photoshop, Dreamweaver etc) and several smaller programs (Bridge, Media Encoder). You aren't paying $300 for a single program, you're getting a whole suite of tools that cover a wide range of multimedia. I probably would have been happy to pay twice as much for the suite than I did, even though my licence doesn't allow me to use the tools for commercial purposes.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;38296249]No. But they are not the ones telling me what's immoral or wrong. If the product is worth my money, then I'll buy it. If it's not, I won't continue using it. Why the fuck would I wait years for a game to be on sale so that I can wager my money (less than I would otherwise) on something that I might not like, therefore loose my money on something that I won't use? I won't gonna wager any money, regardless if it's the full price or reduced during sale. I'll see for myself if I like the game, using a demo or otherwise, close to the release date, and if I like it, I'll buy it right away, not later. And seriously the argument "well you can look up gameplays and reviews, you don't need to actually play the game yourself to know whether you will like it or not" is bullshit. Games are interactive while reviews and videos are not. You can't be certain if you don't try it yourself. If breaking the law is what it takes for me not to wager my money because some company doesn't want to release a demo, then so fucking be it. Frankly I don't give a fuck about laws that disallow things that aren't morally wrong. Testing the game yourself is just as much morally wrong as watching a trailer for a movie or taking a car for a test drive.[/QUOTE] Calm down. Of course a company isn't going to decide what's immoral or not. That ultimately comes down to you. I'm merely stating that people have conditions when they put out their intellectual property. You can choose whether to abide them or not. When you don't, especially when you obtain and use something without their permission, then you're essentially giving them the finger. If you're not bothered by this then whatever, continue. With watching a trailer for a movie or taking a test drive, the key point is that they've given permission for you to do so. They encourage you to do so. Game companies usually don't encourage you to download their game from a torrent site. I certainly don't expect most people to ask a company if it's okay before doing so. If you don't care a lick about the company and their wishes then there's certainly no reason why you wouldn't pirate a game or movie. However, that attitude comes across as ungrateful. You're basically expecting people to work for you and give you something for free and only if the experience they give you meets some level then you decide to reimburse them for their effort.

[QUOTE=Antdawg;38296436]even though my licence doesn't allow me to use the tools for commercial purposes.[/QUOTE] They changed that. [url]http://www.adobe.com/sea/special/education/students/studentteacheredition/faq.html[/url] [quote][B]Can I use my Adobe Student and Teacher Edition software for commercial use?[/B] Yes. You may purchase a Student and Teacher Edition for personal as well as commercial use.[/quote] Stated under "How can I use my software ??? during and after school?" That's why I bought the CS6 Master Collection with a student discount. No regrets.

[QUOTE=Jabberwocky;38297907]Calm down. Of course a company isn't going to decide what's immoral or not. That ultimately comes down to you. I'm merely stating that people have conditions when they put out their intellectual property. You can choose whether to abide them or not. When you don't, especially when you obtain and use something without their permission, then you're essentially giving them the finger. If you're not bothered by this then whatever, continue. With watching a trailer for a movie or taking a test drive, the key point is that they've given permission for you to do so. They encourage you to do so. Game companies usually don't encourage you to download their game from a torrent site. I certainly don't expect most people to ask a company if it's okay before doing so. If you don't care a lick about the company and their wishes then there's certainly no reason why you wouldn't pirate a game or movie. However, that attitude comes across as ungrateful. You're basically expecting people to work for you and give you something for free and only if the experience they give you meets some level then you decide to reimburse them for their effort.[/QUOTE] You contradict yourself. If this is what you think about what I'm doing then your last sentence applies to movie trailers, demos and test drives as well. You don't pay for them either, and that's ungrateful. When I pirate the game I play only for as long as it takes for me to understand whether or not I like it. Which is 1 hour at most (and that's an extreme case). I don't expect anything from them for free, hell if I don't like the game I don't want it at all. And so I won't pay. Just like playing a demo or watching a trailer. The only transaction I see here is buying an experience that I'll enjoy, that I'll value equally or more than the game's worth in money. Now, often I have no idea of knowing whether or not I'll value it as much. And that goes to not releasing a demo. They want me to buy a pig in a poke that I won't be able to return because that's what they've put in the terms of use agreement. I'm not gonna fall for that.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;38298973]You contradict yourself. If this is what you think about what I'm doing then your last sentence applies to movie trailers, demos and test drives as well. You don't pay for them either, and that's ungrateful. When I pirate the game I play only for as long as it takes for me to understand whether or not I like it. Which is 1 hour at most (and that's an extreme case). I don't expect anything from them for free, hell if I don't like the game I don't want it at all. And so I won't pay. Just like playing a demo or watching a trailer. The only transaction I see here is buying an experience that I'll enjoy, that I'll value equally or more than the game's worth in money. Now, often I have no idea of knowing whether or not I'll value it as much. And that goes to not releasing a demo. They want me to buy a pig in a poke that I won't be able to return because that's what they've put in the terms of use agreement. I'm not gonna fall for that.[/QUOTE] You missed the whole point of my post. The way pirating a game to test something out (assuming you hold to whatever honour code you have about when to stop or buying afterwards) is different to watching a trailer is that you don't have the right to do so. Who determines that right? The people who own that intellectual property. If you don't care about how they want their game to be used then there's nothing holding you back. It doesn't matter how unsure you are with how a game is or how expensive it is. Neither gives you the right to pirate a game. If you strongly disagree with that then you need to take it up with each person who has the rights to the game. Ask them to let you play the game for free before you decide to buy it. You'll notice a lot of people are basically moving towards that model with free-to-play which is really pay-to-win. The bottom line, if you don't ask the right people or know for certain that it's okay with them if it is okay to download a game for free then you don't have the right to do so.

[QUOTE=Jabberwocky;38299669]You missed the whole point of my post. The way pirating a game to test something out (assuming you hold to whatever honour code you have about when to stop or buying afterwards) is different to watching a trailer is that you don't have the right to do so. Who determines that right? The people who own that intellectual property. If you don't care about how they want their game to be used then there's nothing holding you back. It doesn't matter how unsure you are with how a game is or how expensive it is. Neither gives you the right to pirate a game. If you strongly disagree with that then you need to take it up with each person who has the rights to the game. Ask them to let you play the game for free before you decide to buy it. You'll notice a lot of people are basically moving towards that model with free-to-play which is really pay-to-win. The bottom line, if you don't ask the right people or know for certain that it's okay with them if it is okay to download a game for free then you don't have the right to do so.[/QUOTE] Of course it's not okay by them to let me test the game before I buy it. Because if I do that, all the money they've put into marketing it is lost. They want me to buy their product based on their assurances. And they won't allow me to resell it or return it either. That's what's not right. But hey, it's legal. And I didn't miss your point. I see that you think it's different because they give you an okay to watch a trailer or play a demo. I'm saying it doesn't change anything. It's still the same. Just illegal.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;38299707]I see that you think it's different because they give you an okay to watch a trailer or play a demo.[/QUOTE] Considering they're the legal rightsholders, what they give you permission to do is extremely important.

[QUOTE=catbarf;38303850]Considering they're the legal rightsholders, what they give you permission to do is extremely important.[/QUOTE] I have already replied to this. [quote]Of course it's not okay by them to let me test the game before I buy it. Because if I do that, all the money they've put into marketing it is lost. They want me to buy their product based on their assurances. And they won't allow me to resell it or return it either. That's what's not right. But hey, it's legal.[/quote]

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;38299707]Of course it's not okay by them to let me test the game before I buy it. Because if I do that, all the money they've put into marketing it is lost. They want me to buy their product based on their assurances. And they won't allow me to resell it or return it either. That's what's not right. But hey, it's legal. And I didn't miss your point. I see that you think it's different because they give you an okay to watch a trailer or play a demo. I'm saying it doesn't change anything. It's still the same. Just illegal.[/QUOTE] If you don't think it's right that you can't resell or return copies then you have to bring it up with the right people. Ultimately what they, the right-holders, think is the right way to use a game trumps what you think is the right way. If you haven't made any effort into sorting out this disagreement then you're selfishly disrespecting the wishes of the right-holders so that things are more convenient for you. And I need to ask this. Do you apply this mentality to other things? You mention trailers and demos but they're just part of the marketing which you don't like on the basis that they create false expectations. I don't see why the purchase of games has the be devoid of any risk of regret unlike every other purchase. You won't know how something tastes before you eat it but you don't pay for it afterwards. Keep in mind that most of the cost is labour, not the ingredients.

[QUOTE=Jabberwocky;38307259]If you don't think it's right that you can't resell or return copies then you have to bring it up with the right people. Ultimately what they, the right-holders, think is the right way to use a game trumps what you think is the right way. If you haven't made any effort into sorting out this disagreement then you're selfishly disrespecting the wishes of the right-holders so that things are more convenient for you.[/QUOTE] Selfishly disrespecting the wishes of right holders? Seriously? You got this all around. They are the ones setting immoral rules so that things are more convenient for them. They will advertise their product as the best thing ever and they want me to buy it based on their promises. And then they make a law that forbids me from getting a refund or reselling the product. I'm just not letting them screw me over. If that breaks the law, so be it. [QUOTE=Jabberwocky;38307259]And I need to ask this. Do you apply this mentality to other things? You mention trailers and demos but they're just part of the marketing which you don't like on the basis that they create false expectations. I don't see why the purchase of games has the be devoid of any risk of regret unlike every other purchase. You won't know how something tastes before you eat it but you don't pay for it afterwards. Keep in mind that most of the cost is labour, not the ingredients.[/QUOTE] This thing works only with digital products. It will never work in a real life example. You make a game or a movie once. Every time you sell a burger you need to make it. If I eat the burger it's gone. The seller already lost the money when he was preparing the meal. If I decide that I won't pay, he still looses the money. It doesn't happen with digital goods because they are copied. Nobody looses anything if I download a game. It's not like a copy disappeared and has to be made again. As for movies, the trailers give you a good idea on what the movie is going to be. Even if they are showing the best scenes. You can always wait for someone else to watch it and tell you whether or not the trailer lied. But yeah, movies get trailers, games (should) get demos.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;38307902]Selfishly disrespecting the wishes of right holders? Seriously? You got this all around. They are the ones setting immoral rules so that things are more convenient for them. They will advertise their product as the best thing ever and they want me to buy it based on their promises. And then they make a law that forbids me from getting a refund or reselling the product. I'm just not letting them screw me over. If that breaks the law, so be it. This thing works only with digital products. It will never work in a real life example. You make a game or a movie once. Every time you sell a burger you need to make it. If I eat the burger it's gone. The seller already lost the money when he was preparing the meal. If I decide that I won't pay, he still looses the money. It doesn't happen with digital goods because they are copied. Nobody looses anything if I download a game. It's not like a copy disappeared and has to be made again. As for movies, the trailers give you a good idea on what the movie is going to be. Even if they are showing the best scenes. You can always wait for someone else to watch it and tell you whether or not the trailer lied. But yeah, movies get trailers, games (should) get demos.[/QUOTE] Here's the thing, creators are entitled to reimbursement for their work. You are not entitled to anything. It is only when you pay that you deserve something. And that something doesn't have to be a good game. It doesn't have to be a game you enjoy. People are not in the wrong when they promote their product. They're the ones putting in the work to make something and making sure it makes a return. And I honestly have trouble believing that you can't find enough information out there to decide if you'll enjoy a game. From reviews from people that you trust and share opinions with, let's plays, past experiences and to trying out a friend's game when you visit to say you have no idea whether or not you'll enjoy a game is a tenuous argument. With movie trailers, what happens if the ending lets the whole movie down or there's a long 1 hour stretch in the middle that is utterly boring? A trailer isn't going to be honest and tell you that. The point is that you will never be sure about a purchase until after the fact and it should be up to you to accurately research as much as you need before deciding to spend money. It's funny that nobody steals a burger when it costs a few dollars to make but when a game costs hundreds of millions of dollars to make, people suddenly think it's okay to get a copy for free because it's digital and that the company "isn't losing anything" (which is incredibly hard to prove or disprove). I bet a restaurant doesn't even feel the lose of a burger and you aren't depriving anyone of their burger. In fact, most companies already factor in miscellaneous losses so in the end, stealing a single burger has just as much impact as downloading a single copy of a game. This changes if EVERYONE steals a burger of course. However, I get the feeling that if everyone downloaded a copy of the game then companies would suffer.

I'll shamelessly ignore everything else only to ask a quick question here. [QUOTE=Jabberwocky;38308709]and to trying out a friend's game when you visit.[/QUOTE] What is the difference between pirating a game to play it and playing it from a friend? You're doing the exact same thing, obtaining a playable game without paying for it. You can play a game from start to end with your friends copy and then never having to bother with buying the game because you've completed it, despite not purchasing it.

[QUOTE=dgg;38309543]I'll shamelessly ignore everything else only to ask a quick question here. What is the difference between pirating a game to play it and playing it from a friend? You're doing the exact same thing, obtaining a playable game without paying for it. You can play a game from start to end with your friends copy and then never having to bother with buying the game because you've completed it, despite not purchasing it.[/QUOTE] For me, it's a greyer area like borrowing games from the library. I would personally think that it's a bit more acceptable because there's the understanding that only one person is using it at any one time which is what is being bought, the right to use it. I know for a lot of software, it's okay to install it on different computers but they limit the number of simultaneous users. Now that I think about it, is the no return policy something that the vendor imposes. I suspect that companies don't like the resale part because vendors make a lot of money from it, none of which goes back to the developers.

[QUOTE=Jabberwocky;38308709]Here's the thing, creators are entitled to reimbursement for their work. You are not entitled to anything. It is only when you pay that you deserve something. And that something doesn't have to be a good game. It doesn't have to be a game you enjoy. People are not in the wrong when they promote their product. They're the ones putting in the work to make something and making sure it makes a return. [/QUOTE] I'm entitled to a game when I pay you got this right. And I have every right to buy only those products that I want. And with games being interactive, unless you interact with them you won't know if you want them. [QUOTE=Jabberwocky;38308709]And I honestly have trouble believing that you can't find enough information out there to decide if you'll enjoy a game. From reviews from people that you trust and share opinions with, let's plays, past experiences and to trying out a friend's game when you visit to say you have no idea whether or not you'll enjoy a game is a tenuous argument. [/QUOTE] Like I said. Games are interactive. Until you play the game, all you have are assurances and assumptions. You don't know for sure. And there is a way to nullify this and be sure. By playing the game for a bit. And it's funny that you mention trying out the game at a friends house. Which does the same exact thing. Except the downloading. And I'm sorry to say but a lot of software has "no sharing, even if you play at different hours" in their terms of use agreement so you are selfishly disrespecting the wishes of rightholders. [QUOTE=Jabberwocky;38308709]With movie trailers, what happens if the ending lets the whole movie down or there's a long 1 hour stretch in the middle that is utterly boring? A trailer isn't going to be honest and tell you that. [/QUOTE] Already addressed that. [QUOTE=Silly Sil;38307902]As for movies, the trailers give you a good idea on what the movie is going to be. Even if they are showing the best scenes. You can always wait for someone else to watch it and tell you whether or not the trailer lied. But yeah, movies get trailers, games (should) get demos.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Jabberwocky;38308709]The point is that you will never be sure about a purchase until after the fact and it should be up to you to accurately research as much as you need before deciding to spend money.[/QUOTE] Ha see but with games I can be pretty sure. Though it's illegal. However nobody loses any money when I do it, so it's not immoral. Therefore I don't care if it's illegal. [QUOTE=Jabberwocky;38308709]It's funny that nobody steals a burger when it costs a few dollars to make but when a game costs hundreds of millions of dollars to make, people suddenly think it's okay to get a copy for free because it's digital and that the company "isn't losing anything" (which is incredibly hard to prove or disprove). I bet a restaurant doesn't even feel the lose of a burger and you aren't depriving anyone of their burger. In fact, most companies already factor in miscellaneous losses so in the end, stealing a single burger has just as much impact as downloading a single copy of a game. This changes if EVERYONE steals a burger of course. However, I get the feeling that if everyone downloaded a copy of the game then companies would suffer.[/QUOTE] It's not that they wouldn't feel the loss of 1 burger. It's that it would be stealing. They have already invested money in making that single burger. If you don't pay, they lose it. It's just the same as stealing something from a shop. You make the seller lose the worth of the item. This doesn't happen with digital products. The original doesn't disappear. It doesn't cost hundreds of millions of dollars to make every single copy of a game. You make it once and then copy it. There is no labor or material cost, only the formula cost. You can't compare it to real life. And how is it hard to prove that the company doesn't lose anything? Lets say I download a game that costs 50$ ten times. Does anyone lose 500$? No, nothing was removed. Nobody has lost the worth of the items, nobody will have to replace the missing items. The money is lost only if they lose a customer due to his need being fulfilled by a pirated product.

[QUOTE=dgg;38309543]I'll shamelessly ignore everything else only to ask a quick question here. What is the difference between pirating a game to play it and playing it from a friend? You're doing the exact same thing, obtaining a playable game without paying for it. You can play a game from start to end with your friends copy and then never having to bother with buying the game because you've completed it, despite not purchasing it.[/QUOTE] It's the difference between borrowing a book from the library and photocopying a book in the bookstore. Distributing an individual copy of a work can't be restricted, you can loan anyone your copy of a game as much as you want, because there's still only one copy. Copying it, however, is another issue entirely. Only the copyright holder has the right to copy the work- beyond that, you can do what you like.

[QUOTE=catbarf;38317594]It's the difference between borrowing a book from the library and photocopying a book in the bookstore. Distributing an individual copy of a work can't be restricted, you can loan anyone your copy of a game as much as you want, because there's still only one copy. Copying it, however, is another issue entirely. Only the copyright holder has the right to copy the work- beyond that, you can do what you like.[/QUOTE] There is literally no difference between borrowing something from a friend and pirating it. In most cases people don't give a shit and you can end up borrowing it for the rest of your life. Also it doesn't matter if there is a time constraint to your borrow, you can still play through the whole game without paying a dime. And in most cases you can easily play through the whole game in the timespan that you borrow it.

[QUOTE=Antdawg;38296436]Dude, Adobe CS Design Premium has 7 major programs (Photoshop, Dreamweaver etc) and several smaller programs (Bridge, Media Encoder). You aren't paying $300 for a single program, you're getting a whole suite of tools that cover a wide range of multimedia. I probably would have been happy to pay twice as much for the suite than I did, even though my licence doesn't allow me to use the tools for commercial purposes.[/QUOTE] yeah nah fuck that for a joke nope

In my opinion pirating could easily affect the gaming community if it became more widespread (i.e: for more consoles, easier to access etc). However, if the demo scarcely resembles the game, maybe it's a tutorial, a very early version, or only 5 minutes of game play, I'd recommend finding a good 'let's play' or - as a last resort - pirate the game.

If I'm considering getting a game but don't know if it's going to be shitty or worth a buy, I'm not going to pirate the game, I'll usually see if the general Facepunch community likes it. So in that sense, I don't feel the need to try before I buy. If I really did want to try though, I'd hire it out from the nearest Video Rental. I saw this really cool one the other day and it still had GBA games, which was really cool. A pity that it's so far from where I live.

[QUOTE=dgg;38318340]There is literally no difference between borrowing something from a friend and pirating it. [/QUOTE] There's a huge difference. In one case he is temporarily transferring ownership/custody to you, giving up his ability to play the game so that you can. In the other case, you're unlawfully duplicating a copyrighted material, giving both of you the ability to play two separate copies independently. This is part of why a lot of games include CD checks, even though they're not effective as DRM. They reinforce that the disk is indicative of the individual license to play the game, and ensures that as long as everyone plays fair, one disk means one playable copy of the game at any given time.

[QUOTE=catbarf;38334826]There's a huge difference. In one case he is temporarily transferring ownership/custody to you, giving up his ability to play the game so that you can. In the other case, you're unlawfully duplicating a copyrighted material, giving both of you the ability to play two separate copies independently. This is part of why a lot of games include CD checks, even though they're not effective as DRM. They reinforce that the disk is indicative of the individual license to play the game, and ensures that as long as everyone plays fair, one disk means one playable copy of the game at any given time.[/QUOTE] That's not a huge difference at all. Nobody plays the one single game 24/7. And when you play it really does not matter, the whole point of piracy being bad is that people can obtain and play a game without paying for it. But whoop whoop, that's exactly what you are doing when borrowing games from others. And since pirated copies normally doesn't work with online multiplayer any argument about constant replayability is completely gone there. You'd need to be a huge nerd to play a singleplayer game so much that borrowing it would be any problem. And actually, one disk doesn't mean one playable copy, you can with almost every game install the same game to several PCs and play them at the same time without a hitch since there isn't all that many games anymore that relies on your CD to be in to play. (PC wise)

I think what everyone is trying to do here is strive for a totally black and white answer to the piracy question: It's not going to happen, and that's why we have the differences between manslaughter and murder. My opinion is that pirating is wrong. If you're torrenting from piratebay and you know that this is a singleplayer game that there is no advantage to buying legitimately, then that I would class as piracy. Just because you find $50 to be 'too much' for the latest EA game doesn't mean you have the right to just take it. The real problem here is people thinking that they can have an actual say in this. Yes, we can discuss it here, but it astounds me that there's actually a movement to try and get Gottfrid Svartholm out of prison when he's made millions upon millions for turning a blind eye to obviously pirated games. I honestly feel that the only appropriate response for people to make is to stop buying from publishers who price themselves too high. I know this is wayyy easier said than done, but none of us have the right to take the law into our own hands and steal (yes) games just because we can. I find the words 'DRM' and 'demo' to just be convenient excuses for cheap-asses now-a-days. [b]If you can't afford it then live without it.[/b]

Their are enough reasons to both Pirate a game and to buy it straight off, and to be honest both sides have pretty good excuses it really just comes down to opinion and how you feel about pirating.

[QUOTE=dgg;38338309]That's not a huge difference at all. Nobody plays the one single game 24/7.[/QUOTE] Doesn't matter. There's still only one physical copy. Nobody reads one single book 24/7, that doesn't mean you can print off a hundred copies and give them to everyone you want. [QUOTE=dgg;38338309]And when you play it really does not matter, the whole point of piracy being bad is that people can obtain and play a game without paying for it. But whoop whoop, that's exactly what you are doing when borrowing games from others.[/QUOTE] It's not about who gets to use it, it's about how many copies there exist. One copy exists. One copy has been paid for. [QUOTE=dgg;38338309]You'd need to be a huge nerd to play a singleplayer game so much that borrowing it would be any problem.[/QUOTE] The same exact argument could be applied to books, music, movies, anything. Just because you can loan it to someone else without undue inconvenience to yourself doesn't mean you have the right to freely duplicate the material. Reading a book and then giving it to a friend to read is legal. Photocopying the entire book and giving your friend the copy is illegal. It doesn't matter that you won't be reading the book 24/7, or that you've already read it and it'll just sit on your shelf. You don't have the right to make a copy, and doing so hurts the publisher and by extension the writer. It's exactly the same with games. What are you arguing here? That you have every right to print a hundred thousand copies of a book, CD, or game and distribute them, because of the trivial fact that you can not in fact be using the product all the time?

[QUOTE=catbarf;38348680]Doesn't matter. There's still only one physical copy. Nobody reads one single book 24/7, that doesn't mean you can print off a hundred copies and give them to everyone you want. It's not about who gets to use it, it's about how many copies there exist. One copy exists. One copy has been paid for. The same exact argument could be applied to books, music, movies, anything. Just because you can loan it to someone else without undue inconvenience to yourself doesn't mean you have the right to freely duplicate the material. Reading a book and then giving it to a friend to read is legal. Photocopying the entire book and giving your friend the copy is illegal. It doesn't matter that you won't be reading the book 24/7, or that you've already read it and it'll just sit on your shelf. You don't have the right to make a copy, and doing so hurts the publisher and by extension the writer. It's exactly the same with games. What are you arguing here? That you have every right to print a hundred thousand copies of a book, CD, or game and distribute them, because of the trivial fact that you can not in fact be using the product all the time?[/QUOTE] But you can easily borrow it to 100 people in turns causing the [B]exact[/B] same effect and so-called loss. I really don't see the point here, really, I do not. What does it matter if it's borrowed or pirated? It causes the exact same "damages", gives people the exact same experience and is identical in every way. The argument has been and always will be that pirates obtain a product they do not legally have access to and end up using the illegal copy as a substitute for a legal one, not paying a dime to the makers of the product. In no way is that changed by borrowing. This is also why borrowing re-usable products isn't actually legal. Your argument is also completely false and stupid if you think about it. It doesn't hurt a company that you borrow your game but it hurts them if you copy it and give it to your friend? So they are hurt because you spent money on a disc and copied the game on that disk, but they are completley unhurt by you borrowing the game instead? The borrower gets the exact same game, plays it the exact same way, and doesn't pay a dime for the game but got to play the whole game. Please, think this through thouroughly before you make a counter-argument. Accessability is a completely invalid argument, the damage is done when the experience is had without having paid for it, that's absolutely all there is to it.

[QUOTE=dgg;38349403]But you can easily borrow it to 100 people in turns causing the [B]exact[/B] same effect and so-called loss. I really don't see the point here, really, I do not. What does it matter if it's borrowed or pirated? It causes the exact same "damages", gives people the exact same experience and is identical in every way. The argument has been and always will be that pirates obtain a product they do not legally have access to and end up using the illegal copy as a substitute for a legal one, not paying a dime to the makers of the product. In no way is that changed by borrowing.[/QUOTE] It's not about giving people the experience without paying, it's about devaluing the work through unlawful reproduction. If there are so many copies that anyone who wants one can get it from a friend or extremely cheaply, then the publisher's ability to sell their own product has effectively been destroyed. I might buy a book, even after borrowing it from a friend, because even though he isn't reading it at this instant, he likes it and wants to keep it, and I would like a copy too. The same is for games. But if my friend gives me a perfect duplicate of his book and says I can keep it, I have no reason to go and actually buy the work. In a broader economic context, there are now two books, which are individually not as valuable as the one was before. If I print off ten thousand more of this book and give them away to anyone who wants one, it would clearly be undercutting sales of the book. [QUOTE=dgg;38349403]This is also why borrowing re-usable products isn't actually legal.[/QUOTE] Borrowing reusable products isn't legal? What? Since when? How? I guess I should tell my roommate that letting him borrow my vacuum cleaner is illegal now. Then I'll go tell the public library that they're in violation of the law. Maybe I'll bring it up with Blockbuster, if they're still around. I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. There is nothing illegal about borrowing a piece of physical media. [QUOTE=dgg;38349403]Your argument is also completely false and stupid if you think about it. It doesn't hurt a company that you borrow your game but it hurts them if you copy it and give it to your friend? So they are hurt because you spent money on a disc and copied the game on that disk, but they are completley unhurt by you borrowing the game instead? The borrower gets the exact same game, plays it the exact same way, and doesn't pay a dime for the game but got to play the whole game. Please, think this through thouroughly before you make a counter-argument. Accessability is a completely invalid argument, the damage is done when the experience is had without having paid for it, that's absolutely all there is to it.[/QUOTE] See above. It's not about people getting 'the experience' without paying. It's about people [i]owning[/i] the experience, permanently, without paying. It's the difference between a movie rental and a street vendor selling burned movies. There's a massive conceptual difference between transferring ownership and creating new ownership. I mean, think about it. By your reasoning, giving your friend a counterfeit $20 to keep is just as legitimate as letting him borrow $20. Doesn't that seem off?