Piracy? or Try before you buy? - General

[QUOTE=Wormy;38817718]I think this whole "try before you buy" argument is invalid and stupid. Isn't that what demos and trials are for? Are you telling me that if you would happen to pirate a game that costs around 50 bucks, would you actually buy the game later in the stores? I highly doubt it. If this does happen, it happens very [b]rarely[/b].[/QUOTE] It isn't invalid. How many games have demos and trials? I would love to have a Farcry 3 trial but it isn't there. Most people might not purchase the game they have stolen but take into account games people steal and just outright delete it or stop playing because it did not appeal to them. One cause of piracy(albeit a very small one) is legitimate owners using pirated versions of their games or cracks to bypass DRM. If one does not have internet and unknowingly purchases a game that doesn't require internet itself to play but requires it to prove you are a legitimate purchaser, one of the courses of action would be to pirate(or crack) the game. Very slow or poor quality internet can apply also. Another situation is when a game has issues and the solution is in the form of bypassing the copyright protections. No-CD cracks(or pre-patched games) are useful for this. [URL="http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/99770-Settlers-7-DRM-Problems-Still-Unresolved"]http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/99770-Settlers-7-DRM-Problems-Still-Unresolved[/URL] [URL="http://torrentfreak.com/ubisofts-no-cd-answer-to-drm-080718/"]http://torrentfreak.com/ubisofts-no-cd-answer-to-drm-080718/[/URL] I know the above link is from torrentfreak so take it or leave it. Also, the low price-to-content/re-playability of games can(and probably is) a symptom of piracy. Some think $60 for a game that has no real re-playability or lacks sufficient gameplay is worth purchasing.

Piracy might be made less prevalent if they reduced the price of their goods but just because you don't think paying $60 for a certain game is worth it doesn't mean you're entitled to pirating a copy.

[QUOTE=futahorse;39212935]It isn't invalid. How many games have demos and trials? I would love to have a Farcry 3 trial but it isn't there. Most people might not purchase the game they have stolen but take into account games people steal and just outright delete it or stop playing because it did not appeal to them. [/QUOTE] Absence of demos and trials does not make pirating right and game developers do not owe it to their customers to produce them. Demos are merely a marketing tool that gives the customer a better idea of what is involved in the game - no different from trailers. Would it be acceptable to steal a car for 3 weeks if you were refused a test drive? [QUOTE=futahorse;39212935]One cause of piracy(albeit a very small one) is legitimate owners using pirated versions of their games or cracks to bypass DRM. If one does not have internet and unknowingly purchases a game that doesn't require internet itself to play but requires it to prove you are a legitimate purchaser, one of the courses of action would be to pirate(or crack) the game. Very slow or poor quality internet can apply also. Another situation is when a game has issues and the solution is in the form of bypassing the copyright protections. No-CD cracks(or pre-patched games) are useful for this. [URL="http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/99770-Settlers-7-DRM-Problems-Still-Unresolved"]http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/99770-Settlers-7-DRM-Problems-Still-Unresolved[/URL] [URL="http://torrentfreak.com/ubisofts-no-cd-answer-to-drm-080718/"]http://torrentfreak.com/ubisofts-no-cd-answer-to-drm-080718/[/URL] I know the above link is from torrentfreak so take it or leave it. Also, the low price-to-content/re-playability of games can(and probably is) a symptom of piracy. Some think $60 for a game that has no real re-playability or lacks sufficient gameplay is worth purchasing.[/QUOTE] I agree with you here, though, and this is why I sit on the fence when it comes to piracy. I see piracy as wrong, and the argument of 'try before you buy' as a weak attempt at moral justification - but I also hate companies like EA and Ubisoft who care more about making money and securing their games from piracy to the extent that it hurts the loyal gamers more than the pirates.

I like the companies that offer full use of the software for a limited time. Makes you wanna keep it really bad. A good strategy (I think) would be to offer you 10% of the estimated play through time as a demo of the full game. Can't quit only 10% through!

I think that it's just fine installing games just to try them. I personally find it much easier to just torrent the game, rather than forking out my credit card information just to get a game.If you are going to make an awesome game, you have to accept the fact that people ARE going to try to get around the money part of it. It isn't piracy, as long as you are not selling it or giving it to anybody else.

[QUOTE=Squerl101;39506940]I think that it's just fine installing games just to try them. I personally find it much easier to just torrent the game, rather than forking out my credit card information just to get a game.If you are going to make an awesome game, you have to accept the fact that people ARE going to try to get around the money part of it. It isn't piracy, as long as you are not selling it or giving it to anybody else.[/QUOTE] Easiness is a poor justification for getting a game illegitimately. If you don't want to give credit card info (totally understandable) then there are other ways to pay for games. Whilst people getting games (or anything) illegally is a reality that companies need to accept, they don't need to do so happily or without resistance. It's their property and they have the right to try and protect it. How they do so may or may not sit well with you but it's up to the company to decide whether that matters to them. And it IS piracy even if you are only downloading. Besides, regardless of how you argue to semantics of "stealing" or "pirating" intellectual property, you are still breaking copyright law when you illegally download or use things.

[QUOTE=Squerl101;39506940]I think that it's just fine installing games just to try them. I personally find it much easier to just torrent the game, rather than forking out my credit card information just to get a game.[/QUOTE] I'm in a shop. I see a chocolate bar. It would be easier for me to take it and just walk out of the shop - but that is illegal. [QUOTE=Squerl101;39506940]If you are going to make an awesome game, you have to accept the fact that people ARE going to try to get around the money part of it.[/QUOTE] The fact that crime (regardless of what form it takes) cannot be prevented in it's entirity does not mean that a) it is acceptable, or b) it should be ignored. [QUOTE=Squerl101;39506940]It isn't piracy, as long as you are not selling it or giving it to anybody else.[/QUOTE] Er, yes it it.

[QUOTE=Wormy;38817718]I think this whole "try before you buy" argument is invalid and stupid. Isn't that what demos and trials are for? Are you telling me that if you would happen to pirate a game that costs around 50 bucks, would you actually buy the game later in the stores? I highly doubt it. If this does happen, it happens very [b]rarely[/b].[/QUOTE] Well, not all games have demos, not all demos are expansive enough to showcase the game. Overall this statement is extremely loaded. There's no real data on how often people buy after they pirate, you're pulling this out of your ass. I know a lot of people that pirate for the sake of convenience and then buy later for completionism or collector's sake.. I also know people who do the traditional try before buy, and I know people who just pirate and don't try to justify what they do, as well as people who pirate and try to justify it with numbers and statements and such.

literally a 3-10 minute gameplay video on youtube is enough to showcase a game, to judge whether you should pirate it or buy it, or neither. [editline]17th February 2013[/editline] and I trust my money for the big titles, like Grand Theft Auto. Some other lesser big titles I have resorted to piracy because I simply don't want to spend the little money that I have, unless really worth it. Enough games I have bought that turned out to be nothing. And gladly the best game ever just happens to be free, that is the Dota2.

Dota 2 isn't free, it's just that owning it is worthless. A lot of big titles have painful DRM and more extremely inconvenient to buy, and the developers and publishers behind them are infact not trustworthy. And gameplay footage is not enough to know whether or not you'd like a game, no. At least not in many cases.

To me it is enough, most of the times anyway. And Dota2 is free, or rather [i]will[/i] be free. And they recruited people to the beta randomly, freely, until they started handing out more free Dota2 invites to people beyond counting. And as for DRM, or DLC, I'm not a fan of those. I went ahead and bought the all-in-one Premium for BF3, which was alright, and even though I rocked the GTAIV thoroughly, I didn't bother buying the DLC for it. I was content with what it had to offer through other means, the original content plus some modding. I'm very picky about my purchases, and even then I have some game purchases that I wish I hadn't bought, and I wouldn't have probably pirated them either.

For devs/publishers being trustworthy it's a case-to-case basis, if you like most/all of the games a developer has made then it would make sense to buy their product outright, but it would be stupid to buy a game from an unworthy dev like bioware just on the chance that you'd like it. You wouldn't want to support a game/franchise that you don't like, right?

wait what am I even arguing for, or against?

That's what I meant when I said owning Dota 2 is worthless, because there are so many beta keys going around it might as well be free, but that doesn't mean it is. I'm not endorsing piracy either, but I don't think it's an unreasonable option I expected all of those posts to automerge, my bad

[QUOTE=Rammlied;39615888]For devs/publishers being trustworthy it's a case-to-case basis, if you like most/all of the games a developer has made then it would make sense to buy their product outright, but it would be stupid to buy a game from an unworthy dev like bioware just on the chance that you'd like it. You wouldn't want to support a game/franchise that you don't like, right?[/QUOTE] No, and I don't. I hardly even support Valve much (nothing ever from TF2/Dota2 store), but I'm a true die-hard fan of their games and an old-school Steam user, but still The Orange Box pre-order goes within my last 10 game purchases on Steam. :v:

I suppose I've been sticking to my guns for a while now (still doing so) in believing that the act of piracy is wrong, but developers most of the time are at least partially liable for it (notice most of the time, not all). Things like DRM which in every single implementation only disadvantage the player who actually supports the developer, not releasing any form of gameplay demo which prevents people from getting a feel for the game and inappropriate pricing strategies. I still don't believe piracy to be justifiable, but I want to discuss a bit about the freemium pricing strategy and tackling piracy. I installed Real Racing 3 on my iPad recently; and unlike Real Racing 1 and 2 which had an initial cost (I think both were around $10 on their respective launches), Real Racing 3 was released for free. That is not to say that it is inherently a bad game, in fact the graphics are far more realistic than Real Racing 2's which were amazing enough and the actual gameplay is much more realistic and competitive, making the overall experience really good. It also has actual real tracks in the game like the Hockenheimring and Mount Panorama, something its prequels lacked. There are two currencies in the game, cash and gold. When you win races you get cash, when you level up you get gold. Cash is used to buy new cars, buy upgrades for your cars, repair any damage you may get from racing and to service your car (eg change the oil or tires). When you use your cash for any of those, there is a time delay until you actually get the new car, get the upgrade, repair the damage or get it serviced. For example an oil change takes five minutes of real time to happen and in that time you can race in another car or even exit the app and it will perform the oil change in the background. You can use gold you earn to make any purchases happen instantly. This is where freemium comes in. What Firemonkey does to receive payment is have an in-app store where you can buy cash or gold. Buying cash let's you buy the cars and upgrades more easily of course, and buying gold lets you play without delay. I actually really like this system. The game is free so it would be ridiculous to pirate it, and the only way I can imagine that pirates can get something for free from the game is to somehow hack it to get free cash and gold, which I imagine is no small feat as the in-app store is handled through Apple themselves I believe. Anyways what the game does is that it gives you all the content that is has for free. Every car. Every race track. Every event. The system with purchases taking a while to accomplish is actually pretty decent because most damage can be repaired in a matter of minutes if not seconds, and it encourages players to be better drivers. Even with doing the oil changes, it's not even that bad as I said you can close the app and it will do it in the background, or you can even drive another car around while that other car is serviced. I believe that this kind of freemium model could really help to reduce the effects of piracy on the industry, and it still doesn't give any unfair advantage to players who purchase stuff on the in-app store. A free player has as much chance of winning a race as a paying player does. I'm hoping that more freemium games follow Real Racing 3's example. To be honest I actually really do like the waiting for repairs and upgrades, to me it gives my cars a greater value. They feel like something I've invested effort in and I avoid causing any unnecessary damage to them.

I grabbed a pirated copy of Far Cry 3 after finding it tucked away in the network on the computer's at my job. (It's computer based work and most of us are around the age of 18 to 25, so it makes sense.) I've enjoyed it greatly, only done like 4 missions. I plan to buy it via Steam with my next paycheck, as even having the game cracked and such, Uplay is still horrid. More so I can't deactivate the Uplay overlay, which like the Origin overlay, disables Steam's overlay. Personally I do believe in Try Before You Buy, especially if you're missing out on a lot of features with outdated offline only games. The only game I recently remember fully pirating was Postal 2: AWP, as the game is still banned in Australia, and can't have the physical copy shipped here or have the digital copy purchased and downloaded here. If I have pirated any other games I don't remember the names, but they'd be non-steam ones. It's usually some bullshit DRM that gets me. But overall I prefer buying games. The Try Before You Buy thing I'm still sorta on the fence about. A 12 hour download for a game you may or may not enjoy, let alone even work is quite an unappealing risk.

I don't believe in try before buy for games because it's sort of like eating at a restaurant and then deciding whether to pay or not. And those who justify it by buying it have no incentive not to wait for a massive discount, which also is unfair towards the devs. However piracy gives consumers power to defend themselves against things like detrimental DRM or high price, creating pressure for the product to be made improved and made more widely available. Also the fact that anyone can get tools like Photoshop is in my opinion good for society as a whole. What I wonder is why isn't piracy a bigger problem. If you can get any game for free why do people still spends hundreds on dollars on them? I wouldn't expect the masses to be so righteous that the only thing keeping them from doing it would be morals.

[QUOTE=Wormy;38817718]I think this whole "try before you buy" argument is invalid and stupid. Isn't that what demos and trials are for?[/QUOTE] A lot of games nowadays don't have demos or have very restrictive ones. [QUOTE=Wormy;38817718]Are you telling me that if you would happen to pirate a game that costs around 50 bucks, would you actually buy the game later in the stores? I highly doubt it. If this does happen, it happens very [b]rarely[/b].[/QUOTE] They wouldn't have bought it in the first place then. I, for one, wouldn't spend a large sum of money on a whim, piracy at least lets me try out the game and get a first impression. If I think it's worth it, I'll buy it. Surely someone rarely buying a game based on piracy is better than not buying it at all? [QUOTE=David29;39254125]Would it be acceptable to steal a car for 3 weeks if you were refused a test drive?[/QUOTE] Stealing a car means the car isn't there and the original owner doesn't have it. Pirating software means that the original software is still in the hands of the owner and it can still be bought by anyone else.

I bet piracy would go down if decent demos were released for games. Feels like that rarely happens.

[QUOTE=FunkyDarkKnight;39723038]Stealing a car means the car isn't there and the original owner doesn't have it. Pirating software means that the original software is still in the hands of the owner and it can still be bought by anyone else.[/QUOTE] The issue is less about the owner physically losing something and more about the developers losing a sale. Either way, what you are talking about is kind of irrelevant to the point of the analogy I was using.

[QUOTE=David29;39739061]The issue is less about the owner physically losing something and more about the developers losing a sale. Either way, what you are talking about is kind of irrelevant to the point of the analogy I was using.[/QUOTE] I agree with your viewpoint but perhaps there is a better analogy, which someone in the thread has mentioned before: Pirating media is like going to a cinema and walking in to watch a movie without buying a ticket. When you think about it, it would be pretty slack to do that and only decide if you would buy the ticket (buy the game) after the movie was finished. The producers don't have anything physically stolen from them but they have lost potential income, and that extends to the cinema as well (retailers) who also have lost potential income. I understand tickets to movies don't cost as much as most games, but games generally get much more promotional media prior to release. A movie might get one trailer, two trailers being a rare possibility. Games often get teasers / reveal trailers and lots of gameplay trailers. While demos would be nice we still get quite a bit of promotional media from the publishers anyways and no one can deny that.

One of the reasons I think piracy blows is that often the shit you get is a fucking hassle to get working. I downloaded a copy of District 9 last year, and the only functioning copy I could find was a 240p shitty audio compressed, watermarked piece of shit. It's even worse with games, as you guys know. I downloaded Spec Ops The Line late last year, and didn't even bother finishing it because of how often the audio straight up cut off for a solid hour. I got so fed up with my "free" copy that I ended up borrowing a PS3 copy from my mate and beating it there. In my opinion, you're hurting yourself and the developers when you pirate a game. You aren't giving them money, you aren't supporting them so they can make more kick-ass games, and you might have a shitty or fustrating experience due to almost unavoidable bugs that come with piracy. I played through a buggy pirated copy of Crysis 2 on my old computer, and it was terrible playing through because of how often it crashed or refused to run. When I bought a legit copy during the summer sale last year, I was amazed on how much I was missing out on. Bug fixes, the DX11 patch, multiplayer... My belief is that you should buy games you want to support, and ignore games that you don't want to support. That doesn't mean you should turn around and pirate it anyways, though. That's not how boycotting works.

[QUOTE=milkandcooki;39740159]One of the reasons I think piracy blows is that often the shit you get is a fucking hassle to get working. I downloaded a copy of District 9 last year, and the only functioning copy I could find was a 240p shitty audio compressed, watermarked piece of shit. It's even worse with games, as you guys know. I downloaded Spec Ops The Line late last year, and didn't even bother finishing it because of how often the audio straight up cut off for a solid hour. I got so fed up with my "free" copy that I ended up borrowing a PS3 copy from my mate and beating it there. In my opinion, you're hurting yourself and the developers when you pirate a game. You aren't giving them money, you aren't supporting them so they can make more kick-ass games, and you might have a shitty or fustrating experience due to almost unavoidable bugs that come with piracy. I played through a buggy pirated copy of Crysis 2 on my old computer, and it was terrible playing through because of how often it crashed or refused to run. When I bought a legit copy during the summer sale last year, I was amazed on how much I was missing out on. Bug fixes, the DX11 patch, multiplayer... My belief is that you should buy games you want to support, and ignore games that you don't want to support. That doesn't mean you should turn around and pirate it anyways, though. That's not how boycotting works.[/QUOTE] I agree. The biggest offset for me pirating material is uploaders tainting files with their shitty watermarks and techno installers, complex cracks, bugs and other things. Music and video now and again have bad sources or not in the format of choice. With games, the most effective way to get someone to buy the game (no, it's not a piracy deterrent because people still want to try before buying), which they pretty much sussed is to have some form of always online DRM for multiplayer aspects of the game / features within it.

[QUOTE=David29;39739061]The issue is less about the owner physically losing something and more about the developers losing a sale.[/QUOTE] Think about it, if someone went through the trouble to pirate something then they weren't going to buy it in the first place. There is only a very small minority who would legally buy something they would've pirated if stealing wasn't an option, but that minority is overshadowed by people who bought the product because they liked the 'taster' they got from downloading it illegally. [QUOTE=David29;39739061]Either way, what you are talking about is kind of irrelevant to the point of the analogy I was using.[/QUOTE] It's not irrelevant. You were comparing piracy to stealing a car when the context of whether it's digital or physical goods actually does matter. [QUOTE=Antdawg;39739941]Games often get teasers / reveal trailers and lots of gameplay trailers. While demos would be nice we still get quite a bit of promotional media from the publishers anyways and no one can deny that.[/QUOTE] Teasers and trailers don't always show the game for what it is, sometimes you need to play the game to know how good/bad it really is. Example: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lGXDM3LGnk[/url] [IMG]http://www.abload.de/img/abtxe3.gif[/IMG]

If I might say something? I've only pirated one game and it got off to a great start. I became really into it and had to stop myself. I bought the game (if you're wondering, it was VVVVVV) and absolutely love it. If you get a taste through pirating, and buy it, then you're supporting the developer, instead of buying it and not liking it. Now, for music and what not, I've pirated a lot of music, but mostly older stuff. Hell, I was looking for a classic album by King Crimson and iTunes didn't have it. So, I pirated it, after I bought the vinyl copy. Heck, I pirated the Pink Floyd discography but noticed how the audio was cutting off all the freaking time and got horribly annoyed with that (audionazi). Ended up buying the whole discography and haven't looked back since. If you're not sure about something that costs money, that is either music or programs, pirate it. If you like it, support the damn developer. Also, I lied a little bit about the no other games being pirated. I pirated Hotline Miami and absolutely love it, but will get it in a few weeks when I am able to afford it. Moral of the story? Pirate before you buy, "Try before you buy" as many companies put it.

[QUOTE=Polonium9;39753561]Moral of the story? Pirate before you buy, "Try before you buy" as many companies put it.[/QUOTE] Is it OK if I go to the movies, sneak in to watch a movie without buying a ticket and only deciding whether or not to buy a ticket after I've already watched and taken in the whole movie?

[QUOTE=FunkyDarkKnight;39748464]Think about it, if someone went through the trouble to pirate something then they weren't going to buy it in the first place. There is only a very small minority who would legally buy something they would've pirated if stealing wasn't an option, but that minority is overshadowed by people who bought the product because they liked the 'taster' they got from downloading it illegally.[/quote] People keep saying this in this thread but is there any actual proof of this besides some random Joe Shmuck's friend's one or two time anecdotal evidence? [quote=FunkyDarkKnight] Teasers and trailers don't always show the game for what it is, sometimes you need to play the game to know how good/bad it really is. Example: [url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lGXDM3LGnk[/url] [IMG]http://www.abload.de/img/abtxe3.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE] Promotional pictures of fast food never look like their actual product. Misleading and blatantly false advertisement is definitely something that should be cracked down on but it never makes it right for you to illegally download a copy of something to "try".

While out with my girlfriend and some friends we got onto a conversation about pirating films and game the other day, and we brought up a very good point. Lets say you buy a game or a film and the disk breaks. It's just out side of the warranty, so there's no chance of returning it. Is it then classed as piracy to download the game/film, or copy a friends disk? Remember you've already paid for the game once, but you're unable to play it. On one had it's a service you paid for, you wouldn't expect someone to refund a microwave if you fucked it up. But on the other hand, there's nothing really physically to hold as it's all data. With that said, when you buy a game are you just buying the disc and renting the data or are you buying a license to play the data on the disc? With a bunch of games today making you link them to accounts before you can use them. I really miss the days when you just used to borrow a game of your friend and play it. Back in my Secondary school my English teacher lent me her copy of Shawshank Redemption, after the class spent the entire lesson talking about films. It's safe to say I thought it was fucking amazing after I watched it and purchased a copy for myself. I think the whole "Piracy" thing is a huge grey area. As you do have some people who download things and never pay for them, but you do get people who buy the items. Me and Shawshank Redemption for instance.

[QUOTE=Jabberwocky;39759105]People keep saying this in this thread but is there any actual proof of this besides some random Joe Shmuck's friend's one or two time anecdotal evidence?[/QUOTE] If you've pirated a few things before, you'd know that you were either on the fence or weren't getting it anyway. Ask a few people who are guilty of illegally downloading something and you'll see what I mean. [QUOTE=Jabberwocky;39759105]Promotional pictures of fast food never look like their actual product. Misleading and blatantly false advertisement is definitely something that should be cracked down on but it never makes it right for you to illegally download a copy of something to "try".[/QUOTE] I never said it was "right"? If an advert is misleading or if the corporation is untrustworthy, then I'll understand your reasons for pirating something, but I would never call it right.