Piracy? or Try before you buy? - General

Not going to go through 18 pages and read all replies, but here is my opinion on things. Games cost too much to buy every single title that comes out. Here is how I would price games at launch. Multiplayer Only: $15 USD max Singleplayer Only: $30 USD max Singleplayer+Multiplayer: $40USD - $45 USD max And I emphasizes on the "max." I do not have that much money to spend on video games all of the time. I believe if companies really wanted any money from me, I assume they would just lower their prices. This is my attitude towards big companies who are already in the green 10 times over and are just trying to milking the lower class for everything they are worth. (I know games are optional purchase, but just bear with me.) I fully support smaller companies and indie developers. That being said, they usually have realistic prices anyways, so refer to what I posted before about having the willingness to buy affordable games. tl;dr If you want my money big companies, lower your prices. If not, na na na na boo boo, I will pirate from you.

[QUOTE=Ninja Pirate;40287464]Not going to go through 18 pages and read all replies, but here is my opinion on things. Games cost too much to buy every single title that comes out. Here is how I would price games at launch. Multiplayer Only: $15 USD max Singleplayer Only: $30 USD max Singleplayer+Multiplayer: $40USD - $45 USD max And I emphasizes on the "max." I do not have that much money to spend on video games all of the time. I believe if companies really wanted any money from me, I assume they would just lower their prices. This is my attitude towards big companies who are already in the green 10 times over and are just trying to milking the lower class for everything they are worth. (I know games are optional purchase, but just bear with me.) I fully support smaller companies and indie developers. That being said, they usually have realistic prices anyways, so refer to what I posted before about having the willingness to buy affordable games. tl;dr If you want my money big companies, lower your prices. If not, na na na na boo boo, I will pirate from you.[/QUOTE] Then don't buy every title that comes out? Games are a luxury item. If you can't afford it then you don't get it. If you're not happy with release prices then wait 2 months or for a sale or both. Games from small companies have lower prices because they cost less to make. Big triple A titles need to recoup the money it takes to make them. It makes sense to pay more for things that cost more to make. And it's weird to begruge a company (or anyone) for making money. They spend the money they make on new games. Isn't that what we want in the end? And even if games were priced beyond reasonable expectation (whether that's now, in the future, past or never) that is no reason why you should pirate something.

[QUOTE=Jabberwocky;40297789]Then don't buy every title that comes out? Games are a luxury item. If you can't afford it then you don't get it. If you're not happy with release prices then wait 2 months or for a sale or both. Games from small companies have lower prices because they cost less to make. Big triple A titles need to recoup the money it takes to make them. It makes sense to pay more for things that cost more to make. And it's weird to begruge a company (or anyone) for making money. They spend the money they make on new games. Isn't that what we want in the end? And even if games were priced beyond reasonable expectation (whether that's now, in the future, past or never) that is no reason why you should pirate something.[/QUOTE] Well that is all a matter of opinion. I pirate movies, games, music because it is impossible to afford them all. And yes, if I could, I would download a car, house, money, or anything else! All of these are luxuries, so I see no reason to spend $60+ on luxuries of this quantity. Big companies have more than enough money, so don't give them a sob story. They are making way more than what it takes to make it+decent profits. I guess that is where I differ from people.. if I made a product I would want to make money profit, but I would also want the average person to be able to purchase it and afford it. Because I know from my experience, as well as many others, that when the price for anything is too high (luxury or not) people will steal. But that goes into class war far, which is not the topic of this thread. tl;dr we have opposite opinions.

[QUOTE=Ninja Pirate;40298805]Well that is all a matter of opinion. I pirate movies, games, music because it is impossible to afford them all. And yes, if I could, I would download a car, house, money, or anything else! All of these are luxuries, so I see no reason to spend $60+ on luxuries of this quantity. Big companies have more than enough money, so don't give them a sob story. They are making way more than what it takes to make it+decent profits. I guess that is where I differ from people.. if I made a product I would want to make money profit, but I would also want the average person to be able to purchase it and afford it. Because I know from my experience, as well as many others, that when the price for anything is too high (luxury or not) people will steal. But that goes into class war far, which is not the topic of this thread. tl;dr we have opposite opinions.[/QUOTE] I don't really care whether or not you pirate and what you think is a reasonable price. What I don't understand is why people have this mentality that it's okay to pirate because companies make profits. How can you be so sure that they do? THQ filed for bankrupcy a few months ago. It may have had little to do with piracy but it challenges the notion that big companies always make big profits. Companies don't need our sympathy but I reckon they deserve it more than pirates.

[QUOTE=Jabberwocky;40298930]I don't really care whether or not you pirate and what you think is a reasonable price. What I don't understand is why people have this mentality that it's okay to pirate because companies make profits. How can you be so sure that they do? THQ filed for bankrupcy a few months ago. It may have had little to do with piracy but it challenges the notion that big companies always make big profits. Companies don't need our sympathy but I reckon they deserve it more than pirates.[/QUOTE] Well I do care whether or not I pirate and what I believe to be a reasonable price. That is why I said I pirate usually only from big companies. Every THQ game I have are all purchased, so can't blame me for that. But EA/Activation will always get minimal to no money from me, and no fuck will be given. I am on the side of the pirates, until I feel like things are suitable for me. Once again, these are [b]opinions.[/b]

First lets establish why people pirate. The main reason, in my opinion, revolves around money, or lack of access to it. People pirate because virtual files have become so easy to share that no one sees a point to walking to the store, paying 60 dollars plus tax for a game they'll beat in a couple of weeks when they could easily download it and play it. I think game companies letting people try an entire game before they buy it will be in-effective in them buying it, in fact, it'll be a lot easier to pirate and it will mainly be just finding a means of exploiting the game so you could play it for as long as you want.

[QUOTE=Ninja Pirate;40298983]Well I do care whether or not I pirate and what I believe to be a reasonable price. That is why I said I pirate usually only from big companies. Every THQ game I have are all purchased, so can't blame me for that. But EA/Activation will always get minimal to no money from me, and no fuck will be given.[/QUOTE] Not being able to afford something just not justify simply taking it. Believing something to be overpriced does not justify it. Stealing from a company that is rich does not justify it. I agree that games are overpriced and I loathe EA with a passion - but I have never pirated one of their games. If you can't afford something, don't buy it. It's as simple as that. [QUOTE=Ninja Pirate;40298983]I am on the side of the pirates, until I feel like things are suitable for me.[/QUOTE] What this screams to me is: "I will obey the law only as long as it is in my favour".

[QUOTE=David29;40325099]Not being able to afford something just not justify simply taking it. Believing something to be overpriced does not justify it. Stealing from a company that is rich does not justify it. I agree that games are overpriced and I loathe EA with a passion - but I have never pirated one of their games. If you can't afford something, don't buy it. It's as simple as that.[/QUOTE] If the only pirates were people who genuinely can't afford it, I'd be perfectly fine with that. People who can but choose not to buy are the problem though.

I would say pirating is sort of ok if you are in a position where you know you are not going to be able to afford stuff in the long-term or if you are in a location where legally obtaining something is impossible. If you're doing it because you're cheap then that isn't really a good reason imo. I would say there are other circumstances where it might be 'ok' too. For example I download or stream The Walking Dead, Game of Thrones and other American TV shows because I don't have sky in my house and I'm not in a position to pay for sky. With these shows I always buy the DVDs when they come out which sort of makes it ok. I think everyone should be able to access these things whether they have money or not but it is important to remember that the people that make the entertainment we enjoy need to make a living. Arguments of 'but these companies/people make huge profits' doesn't justify piracy when you could have paid for it anyway. However, poor people or people in regions where they can't access certain types of entertainment shouldn't have to worry about the morals of piracy when they aren't even in a position to legally get stuff. tl;dr I think if you can afford it (or will be able to in the near future) and have access to something then you should buy it, otherwise just download it. Pay for it in the future if you can. This is just a rule of thumb of course and will not cover all possible scenarios.

I really don't understand this idea that some people are having that it is 'ok' if you can't afford it. No, it is not 'ok'. The same basic moral principles that apply to physical goods also apply to that of electronic goods. If you can't afford something, then you go without. To think otherwise strikes me as actually being somewhat immature and irresponsible - immature because people can't seem to grasp that they can't have everything (in the same way a child would think) and irresponsible because you are not taking correct responsibility for your finances and accepting what you can and cannot afford. The only situation in which I think piracy [b]is[/b] acceptable is if the game is not for sale anywhere and thus is impossible to acquire through any other means.

Try before you buy srsly

I see Piracy only acceptable for games you can't get it any other way where the developer/publisher gets money. (i.e. System Shock 1). I still buy games second hand though even if the publisher/developer is long gone though, but usually it's a game I never heard of.

Not going through 18 pages as I'll pop a blood vessel by someone being dumb, but I've always heard pirates say "TRY BEFORE BUY" but go figure, Buy never happens and they always find some super shallow reason to say they didn't like it. Pirates steal shit then try to justify it, it's wrong and no matter how you spin it it doesn't work. You don't go into a store, open a bag of chips and tell people "No it's okay I'm trying it first!!"

There a multiple factors at play. Some people say pirating is stealing. That is not and probably never will be true. You just make a copy without ever touching or removing the original. Some say that downloading causes less sales. That is half true because it's impossible to give an exact percentage because of this for example: It takes a whole lot for me and many others to pay 60 euro's for a 10 hour singpleplayer campaign or pay 20 euro's for a 20 track CD. So if downloading wasn't possible, I would not be able to play the game or listen to the music because I wouldn't probably buy it because is simply impossible, I too require food and shelter unfortunately. That means that I don't affect the sales in that situation, with or without pirating. But I do add up the people that listen to them and also telling people I listen to them and going to concerts etc make publicity for them, so in my case they would be better off because they wouldn't get money in both ways, but do get publicity etc. Luckely downloading is legal in my country. Uploading is not, so with downloading torrents you often also upload of course so the rules are weird anyway. Dunno about the USA to be honest, maybe it's the same there, but we got alot more of those weird paradox rules as well as many tolerance policy's. Only multiplayer games (so NOT Simcity fu EA) I always buy and so should everyone. A Game I like and play alot (like Gmod) I have even bought as a present for some friends. So they sometimes earn more on just one copy bought by one individual, cause otherwhise those friends wouldn't have bought it. I think multiplayer games (SO not a singleplayer game that requires internet) should always been bought. Or through accounts like steam and origin. Because multiplayer affacts other people too. That's why you can cheat at singleplayer but never at multiplayer. You shouldn't see these messages as trying to justify. I'm aware of the fact certain companies lose some sells, but then again they get more fans and publicity because it comes available for people who otherwhise wouldn't have had the chance to experience it and I would find it wrong when a good company gets hurt by downloading, but then again when I saw that youtube video of that rapper throwing cash in a club to get attention, I would encourage downloading from him lol, I would honestly never feel bad.

[QUOTE=Rammelslakje;40399462]Some people say pirating is stealing. That is not and probably never will be true. You just make a copy without ever touching or removing the original.[/QUOTE] It is still stealing - just not in the exact same sense or manner that you would steal a physical object. That is why it is called 'pirating' and not 'stealing' - it is not exactly the same but still invokes the notion of illegally getting something for nothing. For example, you don't 'steal' a haircut - if I was to get my hair cut and then not pay for it I have not 'stole' anything or physically removed anything. However, the concept still exists that I have gained something and not provided expected compensation. People who say it isn't 'stealing' are technically right and thus trying to use that as justification to make themselves feel better. But ultimately you are still doing something that is morally and legally wrong.

[QUOTE=David29;40400173]It is still stealing - just not in the exact same sense or manner that you would steal a physical object. That is why it is called 'pirating' and not 'stealing' - it is not exactly the same but still invokes the notion of illegally getting something for nothing. For example, you don't 'steal' a haircut - if I was to get my hair cut and then not pay for it I have not 'stole' anything or physically removed anything. However, the concept still exists that I have gained something and not provided expected compensation. People who say it isn't 'stealing' are technically right and thus trying to use that as justification to make themselves feel better. But ultimately you are still doing something that is morally and legally wrong.[/QUOTE] But with running away after a haircut you have stolen work and time from somebody. By downloading you don't directly disobledge other people. They don't even notice it because t is half true they get less sells, otherwise people wouldn't have bought it in the first place, and they would sell just as much copies but get less publicity and fans. So it's rather positive than negative in that case. Moral isn't a fact but an opinion. So in that case charging 60 euro's for a 10 hour singleplayer campaign, or a singleplayer game which requires internet connection is way more morally wrong. Legally wrong is, where I live, also untrue and so should it be everywhere. When you've downloaded it it becomes your property. You can download only for personal use, but you can not upload/sell/distribute your own personal copy to others, that in fact is illegal. Why would you want to make yourself feel better about something like that? As i've said in my previous post I'm aware of the fact some companies might lose some customers, but then again they gain a lot more fans and publicity by downloading. I'm anonymous here, behind my computer, somewhere in the world, you don't feel shame there so you might as well just say yes what I do is wrong, but it just isn't (from a technical as well as my own moral point of view) in my situation. Unless I wanted to buy something in the first place, but then saw I could get it for free by pirating. Then it would be wrong. Not when I wasn't going to get it in the first place or it wasn't even available for me in my country. I don't think anyone anywhere can give the exact numbers or percentages about how bad pirating is for a company.

[QUOTE=Rammelslakje;40416348] Moral isn't a fact but an opinion. So in that case charging 60 euro's for a 10 hour singleplayer campaign, or a singleplayer game which requires internet connection is way more morally wrong. [/QUOTE] I keep seeing this point come up, that a company is being [i]immoral[/i] because they are charging a price that you think is inflated. It sounds like the company is forcing you to buy these games instead of the mutual understanding and agreement that it is.

[QUOTE=Rammelslakje;40416348]I don't think anyone anywhere can give the exact numbers or percentages about how bad pirating is for a company.[/QUOTE] [url="http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2008/11/acrying-shame-world-of-goo-piracy-rate-near-90/"]2D Boy, a development team which did nothing wrong and even went that extra mile for the customer (DRM free, released a demo) and received thanks through a 90% piracy rate.[/url] I'm not saying that DRM should be put on games, but it is pretty sad because what excuse can pirates give? If they paid for it they wouldn't be hindered in playing it, the game was made available through many different stores and services, it was reasonably priced and if pirates wanted to try it before buying it (fair enough) a demo was actually released for it.

[QUOTE=Rammelslakje;40416348]But with running away after a haircut you have stolen work and time from somebody. By downloading you don't directly disobledge other people.[/QUOTE] Likewise, you have stolen work and time from developers when you pirate a game. You have taken benefit of their work and not paid them. [QUOTE=Rammelslakje;40416348]They don't even notice it because t is half true they get less sells, otherwise people wouldn't have bought it in the first place, and they would sell just as much copies but get less publicity and fans. So it's rather positive than negative in that case.[/QUOTE] That is all pure speculation on your part. Unless you can provide statistics to back your claims up, it really does just sound like desperate attempts to justify pirating. [QUOTE=Rammelslakje;40416348]Moral isn't a fact but an opinion. So in that case charging 60 euro's for a 10 hour singleplayer campaign, or a singleplayer game which requires internet connection is way more morally wrong.[/QUOTE] Indeed, sometimes morality is a matter of opinion. But in this case, there is no argument that theft is immoral. However, publishers choosing to overprice their games is: a. Not immoral - just bad business. b. Not a reason for you to pirate their games - just don't buy it. [QUOTE=Rammelslakje;40416348]Legally wrong is, where I live, also untrue and so should it be everywhere. When you've downloaded it it becomes your property. You can download only for personal use, but you can not upload/sell/distribute your own personal copy to others, that in fact is illegal.[/QUOTE] Which country do you live in? [QUOTE=Rammelslakje;40416348]Why would you want to make yourself feel better about something like that? As i've said in my previous post I'm aware of the fact some companies might lose some customers, but then again they gain a lot more fans and publicity by downloading. I'm anonymous here, behind my computer, somewhere in the world, you don't feel shame there so you might as well just say yes what I do is wrong, but it just isn't (from a technical as well as my own moral point of view) in my situation.[/QUOTE] Because it allows people to avoid the moral consequences of their actions. Clearly you are governed by this, despite what you may claim, since you admit: [QUOTE=Rammelslakje;40416348]Unless I wanted to buy something in the first place, but then saw I could get it for free by pirating. Then it would be wrong.[/QUOTE] Therefore you can identify between what you consider to be right and wrong and act accordingly. [QUOTE=Rammelslakje;40416348]Not when I wasn't going to get it in the first place[/QUOTE] Simple solution to this: do without it. [QUOTE=Rammelslakje;40416348]I don't think anyone anywhere can give the exact numbers or percentages about how bad pirating is for a company.[/QUOTE] Probably not - because it is [b]extremely[/b] difficult to measure.

Well i dont pirate anything, music, movies, games whatever. But. The first thing pirated was a copy of GMod 11. I didn't have steam, nor knew about it at the time, so I didn't know GMod 9 existed. Either way I loved the game so much I got steam and bought the game in less than an hour. Now I got like 800 hours logged on gmod

I would buy all of my games. But if the prices wouldn't be 4 times more expensive in my country. (Yes the price if bigger because of the exchange rate for currency) Edit: Every one pirates in my country. Literally everyone.

Personally, I never understood the arguments in favor of piracy. Trying before buying seems to be a reason not supported with valid arguments, but with one own's satisfaction. Of course, many people are legitimately unable to purchase games and other merchandise because of their unaffordability, however, this does not mean you are entitled to them. This is the way the economy has always worked. Besides, don't most games already list the minimum required specs for them to run on?

If I ever pirate a game, it's usually for the sake of pirating a game; literally a try before you buy. I will play atleast two days worth of the game and actually seriously consider if I should pay its ridiculous buying price. What do you guys think?

It's their fault there's no demo. I'll pirate a game, play for around an hour, be like "This shit's pretty good/extremely awful." and decide to buy it or wipe it from my harddrive. One notable example is Terraria. I thought it was going to be a shitty Minecraft ripoff until I played it, and proceeded to buy it.

[QUOTE=gk99;40426588]It's their fault there's no demo. I'll pirate a game, play for around an hour, be like "This shit's pretty good/extremely awful." and decide to buy it or wipe it from my harddrive. One notable example is Terraria. I thought it was going to be a shitty Minecraft ripoff until I played it, and proceeded to buy it.[/QUOTE] What if the game did have a demo?

[QUOTE=Antdawg;40426703]What if the game did have a demo?[/QUOTE] Then I'd use the demo instead of torrenting it? That's a rather silly question. Not only would it be legal, but I wouldn't have to download a ton more than unnecessary to play. For instance, say TF2 was pay-to-play again and had a demo. Last time I checked, that game was 10 gig+. Would you rather download 3 gigs or 10?

Piracy is piracy, no matter what perspective you look at it. Technically it is also robbery, robbing the company of the funds they are entitled to. Want to try a game? Get the public demo.

[QUOTE=Ninja Pirate;40287464]Not going to go through 18 pages and read all replies, but here is my opinion on things. Games cost too much to buy every single title that comes out. Here is how I would price games at launch. Multiplayer Only: $15 USD max Singleplayer Only: $30 USD max Singleplayer+Multiplayer: $40USD - $45 USD max And I emphasizes on the "max." I do not have that much money to spend on video games all of the time. I believe if companies really wanted any money from me, I assume they would just lower their prices. This is my attitude towards big companies who are already in the green 10 times over and are just trying to milking the lower class for everything they are worth. (I know games are optional purchase, but just bear with me.) I fully support smaller companies and indie developers. That being said, they usually have realistic prices anyways, so refer to what I posted before about having the willingness to buy affordable games. tl;dr If you want my money big companies, lower your prices. If not, na na na na boo boo, I will pirate from you.[/QUOTE] I don't get it... why do you get to set the prices of luxury items that you do not need? Do I get to set the price of precious gems that I want in a golden necklace?

[QUOTE=gk99;40426930]Then I'd use the demo instead of torrenting it? That's a rather silly question. Not only would it be legal, but I wouldn't have to download a ton more than unnecessary to play. For instance, say TF2 was pay-to-play again and had a demo. Last time I checked, that game was 10 gig+. Would you rather download 3 gigs or 10?[/QUOTE] Did you check my link above your post? World of Goo had a 90% piracy rate yet it had a demo. Why is that? Just because you would try the demo doesn't mean all pirates would. It won't stop pirates from being cheap and still pirating the game anyways. Trying before buying is a stupid concept used by pirates to justify what they do, a game having a demo doesn't necessarily cause piracy rates to decrease.

[QUOTE=gk99;40426588]It's their fault there's no demo. I'll pirate a game, play for around an hour, be like "This shit's pretty good/extremely awful." and decide to buy it or wipe it from my harddrive. One notable example is Terraria. I thought it was going to be a shitty Minecraft ripoff until I played it, and proceeded to buy it.[/QUOTE] Newsflash: the ability to try a product before you buy it is a privilige - not a right.