[QUOTE=Simski;40463963]• We can't say it's a bad excuse because you're taking advantage of the supplier, because you can prove neither that the pirate would buy the product if they couldn't pirate it for free, or that the pirate didn't buy the product after pirating it and felt satisfied with its quality. A pirate is not the equivilent of a lost sale. Therefor, the number of people that pirate a product is not an accurate indicator for how many people would have bought it if they couldn't pirate it.[/QUOTE]
You are making the claim that people buy the game after pirating. Provide evidence please.
[QUOTE=David29;40400173]It is still stealing - just not in the exact same sense or manner that you would steal a physical object. That is why it is called 'pirating' and not 'stealing' - it is not exactly the same but still invokes the notion of illegally getting something for nothing. For example, you don't 'steal' a haircut - if I was to get my hair cut and then not pay for it I have not 'stole' anything or physically removed anything. However, the concept still exists that I have gained something and not provided expected compensation.
People who say it isn't 'stealing' are technically right and thus trying to use that as justification to make themselves feel better. But ultimately you are still doing something that is morally and legally wrong.[/QUOTE]
Not paying for a haircut is stealing the hairdresser's labor. If you pirate a video game you don't steal anything, you don't even steal somebody's labor. When software is created, because of its virtual nature, there are infinite copies of it. Unlike other businesses, whereby you must manufacture each "copy" to sell, which takes time, money, and labor, software doesn't work like that. Once you have the software you are free to sell it infinitely, so long as there are people willing to buy it.
Piracy is more like trespassing than it is stealing. Also you cannot lose something you never had. If you have ten apples, and I steal one, you now have 9 apples. I've taken something from you which you can no longer sell. With software, if I take one, you still have infinite copies to sell.
[QUOTE=Conna;40472382]Not paying for a haircut is stealing the hairdresser's labor. If you pirate a video game you don't steal anything, you don't even steal somebody's labor. When software is created, because of its virtual nature, there are infinite copies of it. Unlike other businesses, whereby you must manufacture each "copy" to sell, which takes time, money, and labor, software doesn't work like that. Once you have the software you are free to sell it infinitely, so long as there are people willing to buy it.
Piracy is more like trespassing than it is stealing. Also you cannot lose something you never had. If you have ten apples, and I steal one, you now have 9 apples. I've taken something from you which you can no longer sell. With software, if I take one, you still have infinite copies to sell.[/QUOTE]
So you don't have a problem with sneaking into a movie theater and watching a flick for free?
[editline]29th April 2013[/editline]
Or taking pictures of every page of a magazine and putting it back?
[QUOTE=Truckasaurus1;40471008]You are making the claim that people buy the game after pirating. Provide evidence please.[/QUOTE]
You missed the point. I made a pretty damn large argument that you can't prove either. You can't prove that the pirate didn't buy the game, and you can't prove that he did.
How the devil am I supposed to prove something true when I've been arguing that it's impossible to prove it neither true nor false?
[editline]30th April 2013[/editline]
[t]http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l189/Simski_2006/onlyifIlikeit_zps3285c7f6.png:original[/t]
I guess this is the closest you'll come to proof that some pirates to buy the game after trying it out. Just like how many don't buy it at all. The point is simply that the number of people who pirate a product is not a reliable number for how many sales you have lost, because a pirate can be both a lost sale and already one of your customers. (Also keep in mind that /v/ in general has a very negative attitude and are not the ideal representative of pirates everywhere, they were just the quickest test group I could find)
[editline]30th April 2013[/editline]
[t]http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l189/Simski_2006/poorpirates_zps48fdb855.png:original[/t]
Again, also poverty
[editline]30th April 2013[/editline]
[t]http://i96.photobucket.com/albums/l189/Simski_2006/onlyinsomalia_zpsd743110b.png:original[/t]
Gotta go to class now, bye guys
Demos are for trying and downloading a full game is piracy -.-
Ergo piracy is bad, because there are other ways of trying the game like watching gameplays on youtube, playing demos, reading about it or just checking few screenshots.
[QUOTE=Netheous;40476022]Demos are for trying and downloading a full game is piracy -.-
Ergo piracy is bad, because there are other ways of trying the game like watching gameplays on youtube, playing demos, reading about it or just checking few screenshots.[/QUOTE]
Everything you mentioned (except the demo) isn't trying the game, it's looking at someone else playing it. What might seem fun on paper doesn't always work out in reality.
Imo there's nothing wrong with downloading a game and trying a bit before buying - provided there isn't a demo available. I don't see how it's any different from borrowing a friend's game, playing it a bit then buying my own. A more dubious position I hold is with games that have such horrendous DRM/software tacked on it actively hinders my enjoyment. If a pirated copy doesn't have those issues I don't see the problem either. I should be able to play the game I paid for free from any troubles.
[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;40476079]Everything you mentioned isn't trying the game, it's looking at someone else playing it. What might seem fun on paper doesn't always work out in reality.
Imo there's nothing wrong with downloading a game and trying a bit before buying - provided there isn't a demo available. I don't see how it's any different from borrowing a friend's game, playing it a bit then buying my own. A more dubious position I hold is with games that have such horrendous DRM/software tacked on it actively hinders my enjoyment. If a pirated copy doesn't have those issues I don't see the problem either. I should be able to play the game I paid for free from any troubles.[/QUOTE]
So playing demos is watching someone else playing it ?
[QUOTE=Netheous;40476421]So playing demos is watching someone else playing it ?[/QUOTE]
Missed that bit, still stands for everything else.
[QUOTE=Simski;40474951]You missed the point. I made a pretty damn large argument that you can't prove either. You can't prove that the pirate didn't buy the game, and you can't prove that he did.
How the devil am I supposed to prove something true when I've been arguing that it's impossible to prove it neither true nor false?[/QUOTE]
Your argument hinges on the assertion that some pirates actually buy the game. Prove this now. The rules of the forum dictate that you must prove this. Your three little anecdotal (and very flawed) quotations don't count for anything here.
[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;40476079]Everything you mentioned (except the demo) isn't trying the game, it's looking at someone else playing it. What might seem fun on paper doesn't always work out in reality.
Imo there's nothing wrong with downloading a game and trying a bit before buying - provided there isn't a demo available. I don't see how it's any different from borrowing a friend's game, playing it a bit then buying my own. A more dubious position I hold is with games that have such horrendous DRM/software tacked on it actively hinders my enjoyment. If a pirated copy doesn't have those issues I don't see the problem either. I should be able to play the game I paid for free from any troubles.[/QUOTE]
Why should you be "free from troubles" (lol) if the very game you pay for has those elements in it? What you're saying is that you don't actually want to be free from anything, but you want to be playing a different game, or you don't actually want to be playing the game at all. This goes to the heart of the matter. That it's not your decision what makes it into the game or not because you didn't make it. It's not your product. Do I get to pirate a movie and watch it first to make sure the ending isn't bad? Then, if I liked the movie, I'll buy it?
[QUOTE=Truckasaurus1;40476702]
Why should you be "free from troubles" (lol) if the very game you pay for has those elements in it? What you're saying is that you don't actually want to be free from anything, but you want to be playing a different game, or you don't actually want to be playing the game at all. This goes to the heart of the matter. That it's not your decision what makes it into the game or not because you didn't make it. It's not your product. Do I get to pirate a movie and watch it first to make sure the ending isn't bad? Then, if I liked the movie, I'll buy it?[/QUOTE]
Argue about what I said, not about what you want to read. I'm not talking about the game itself, I'm talking about what's been added to it. Taking Assassin's Creed 2's DRM for example, I would be unable to play the game without a connection to their server. Whether the fault for the lack of connection was on my end or theirs was irrelevant - I simply had to be connected. Pirated copies did not have that. Legitimate customers get screwed over while the pirates sit back and laugh as they can enjoy the game without those issues.
[QUOTE=Truckasaurus1;40476702]Your argument hinges on the assertion that some pirates actually buy the game. Prove this now. The rules of the forum dictate that you must prove this.[/QUOTE]
Read my goddamn previous post smartass, it had fucking pictures I went through the effort just to disprove that pointless shit argument.
[editline]30th April 2013[/editline]
What fucking point are you even trying to make by challenging me on that?
[editline]30th April 2013[/editline]
How the flying fuck are those pictures not enough? I went and asked the pirates themselves if they ever pay for games... some said they do, some said they don't. Which was exactly my fucking point. How about YOU go ahead and fucking prove that no pirates ever buy the product they pirate, since that's what YOUR argument seems to rely on, and that's one hell of a lot more bold claim than mine.
[editline]30th April 2013[/editline]
Seriously, you're playing dirty as fuck here, and I reckon it's because you're shit at proving your own points. Get fucking to it.
[QUOTE=Simski;40467998]This is not true. Just because you download something does not mean you WOULD buy the product eventually if you couldn't pirate it. You express your interest in it, but just because you're interested in something doesn't mean you would be interested in it if the price isn't right or the product turns out to be shit or if the service is terrible.[/QUOTE]
But, again, as I said: there is no proof that the pirate wouldn't buy the product at some point if it couldn't be pirated. Unfortunately for you, the burden of proof is on you to prove that the pirates do buy the game after trying it.
[QUOTE=Simski;40467998]The product is already made. The developer doesn't redo all their hard work for every customer, they're only redistributing a digital copy.[/QUOTE]
Ok, I conceed - I did some research and indeed it is a bit of a stretch to easily compare to theft. Fair enough. It is, however, without dispute copyright infringement - and if you actually stop and think about what copyright infringement is (a person putting time and effort into producing an idea that is then used without consent), it is just as bad. The argument that you are just taking a copy of the code that has been produced is a crappy one - because what you are saying there is that people should be free to just copy a developers work without them receiving any compensation and distribute it as they see fit. With that in mind, we are also skirting into the realms of plagiarism.
Right, so it's only a matter of principle then? Fair enough. Good luck convincing pirates that they're bad people for not avoiding piracy out of principle though.
[QUOTE=Simski;40467998]Demos don't show the full game. They are often only one level, and many of the features have been limited and cut down. People like pirating the full game to get the real taste of the full experience, so they know that they won't just have fun the first level and then the game suddenly takes a turn for the worst.[/QUOTE]
Are you all there in the head? Remember that these are businesses we are talking about - they are in this to make money. Are you seriously proposing that they should offer [b]the full game[/b] just so people can decide if they like it or not? Yes - that's a fantastic idea, let's start bankrupting the game industry so there aren't even any games in the first place.
I went to the pub last night with a couple of friends. One of my friends saw an ale he hadn't tried before but wanted to give it a go. So he asked the barman if he could try it - he was given a small amount so that he could decide whether he liked it or not. If he had said to the barman "can I have a whole pint and then decide afterwards whether to pay you or not?" he would have been laughed at.
Demos usually do a fine job of giving a taste of the game. I played the demo for Game Dev Tycoon and it gave me an excellent idea of how the game will play out and I think I will probably buy it as a result.
[QUOTE=Simski;40467998]That doesn't prove shit, because it doesn't say how many of those pirates were among the people who bought it legally after trying the pirates version. Until you can prove that none of those pirates bought the game after trying it out, your argument doesn't mean squat.[/QUOTE]
Go back and re-read my post. There is a demo for that game, ergo people weren't pirating it to try it (and if they were, then - based on my previous comment - they are idiots). And once again, the burden of proof is on you to prove that pirates do buy the game after trying it. Why? Because:
"When debating any issue, there is an implicit burden of proof on the person asserting a claim."
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophical_burden_of_proof[/url]
You are asserting the claim that pirates will still buy the game, so go prove it.
[QUOTE=Simski;40467998]I personally hate people who pirate indie games, but still, people rather try the whole game than just a small limited version.[/QUOTE]
And I personally hate people who pirate games fullstop - so perhaps you can see where I am coming from?
[QUOTE=Simski;40467998]Pirates probably do know what they're doing is in a way wrong, but if you're being an asshole against an asshole you feel less like an asshole.[/QUOTE]
"Two wrongs don't make a right" (especially when it is a detriment to the honest customers in the grander scheme of things).
[QUOTE=Simski;40467998]DRM is a direct cause of pirates. Many people pirate BECAUSE of annoying DRM that pirates can circumvent. Developers are fucking themselves and their customers over by using DRM. Focusing on pirates is a really fucking sure-fire way of challenging pirates to fuck you over in return.[/QUOTE]
DRM obviously started out in the first place because of pirates. By trying to one-up developers and publishers by pirating more, things are just escalating. The sensible thing to do it just boycott the game and/or bitch about it until you are red in the face (which does work to a certain extent - see SimCity 5).
[QUOTE=Simski;40467998]The developers who'll do fine are the ones who WON'T plaster their games with shitty DRM and focus on combating pirates, and instead focus on pleasing their customers. Pirates are simply a lot less inclined to pirate games from developers who are loyal to their customers more than they're obsessed with hunting pirates.[/QUOTE]
Indeed, developers and publishers are as much responsible for encouraging reduced piracy as the pirates themselves. But pirates still have the wrong attitude nonetheless and many will still pirate regardless of what developers and publishers do.
[QUOTE=Simski;40467998]Now that I'm finally done with this bigass post... I'm gonna finish my goddamn icecream, which has now melted... you jerk[/QUOTE]
Tip of the week - eat the icecream before posting. I don't mind waiting.
[QUOTE=Simski;40477568]Read my goddamn previous post smartass, it had fucking pictures I went through the effort just to disprove that pointless shit argument.
[editline]30th April 2013[/editline]
What fucking point are you even trying to make by challenging me on that?
[editline]30th April 2013[/editline]
How the flying fuck are those pictures not enough? I went and asked the pirates themselves if they ever pay for games... some said they do, some said they don't. Which was exactly my fucking point. How about YOU go ahead and fucking prove that no pirates ever buy the product they pirate, since that's what YOUR argument seems to rely on, and that's one hell of a lot more bold claim than mine.
[editline]30th April 2013[/editline]
Seriously, you're playing dirty as fuck here, and I reckon it's because you're shit at proving your own points. Get fucking to it.[/QUOTE]
In fairness to him, what one or two people have claimed on a forum is dubious evidence at best.
And, seriously, chill out.
[QUOTE=David29;40477952]
In fairness to him, what one or two people have claimed on a forum is dubious evidence at best.
And, seriously, chill out.[/QUOTE]
Essentially what you'd be asking is to ask the majority of pirates whether they buy after pirating though. Plus, the point was that [b]some[/b] buy after pirating, not that all do.
[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;40478085]Essentially what you'd be asking is to ask the majority of pirates whether they buy after pirating though. Plus, the point was that [b]some[/b] buy after pirating, not that all do.[/QUOTE]
Not really, and I accept that some do. What I want are some sort of reliable statistics which show that a large enough portion of pirates still pay for the game to negate the lost sales.
[QUOTE=David29;40477952]And, seriously, chill out.[/QUOTE]
Sorry, I have been known to snap when pressured or agitated. I don't often get angry, but I lose control when I do.
[editline]30th April 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=David29;40478226] What I want are some sort of reliable statistics which show that a large enough portion of pirates still pay for the game to negate the lost sales.[/QUOTE]
I never made that claim. Only that you can never know for sure since there is no reliable way of knowing, as far as I'm concerned. If you could find some reliable statistics that prove that pirates cause more lost sales than not, then be my guest. I however can't find neither, and therefor I won't call pirates neither a gained nor a lost sale, because they can be both.
[editline]30th April 2013[/editline]
I don't really know how you usually do sources in this section and stuff but...
[url]http://www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-page/2013/3/21/study-claims-that-piracy-helps-the-music-industry.html[/url]
[quote]“It seems that the majority of the music that is consumed illegally by the individuals in our sample would not have been purchased if illegal downloading websites were not available to them,” claim the researchers in their report, Digital Music Consumption on the Internet: Evidence from Clickstream Data[/quote]
That's the closest I can find on short notice. I can't do more at the moment though, my step-brother will be over to pick me up in about 10 minutes.
[editline]30th April 2013[/editline]
also
[url]http://herocomplex.latimes.com/tv/game-of-thrones-director-piracy-helps-hbo-series-thrive/#/0[/url]
[quote]Director David Petrarca downplayed the series’ unusual distinction as the most pirated show on TV, suggesting that illegal downloads help create “cultural buzz” around shows and adds to their word-of-mouth cachet.[/quote]
Ok Simski, I am not making any claim. I am asking you to provide evidence to support the claim that pirates actually buy the game after pirating it. You seem to be under the impression that a large anount of pirates do this. I'm asking you to prove it with statistics. Unless you do this, it can be assumed that they are a small minority who actually purchase the game afterwards.
Posting pictures of an internet conversation means nothing.
[QUOTE=Truckasaurus1;40479114]Ok Simski, I am not making any claim. I am asking you to provide evidence to support the claim that pirates actually buy the game after pirating it. You seem to be under the impression that a large anount of pirates do this. I'm asking you to prove it with statistics. Unless you do this, it can be assumed that they are a small minority who actually purchase the game afterwards.
Posting pictures of an internet conversation means nothing.[/QUOTE]
As far as I can read back he never gave any indication that he was under the impression a "large amount" of pirates do it.
I've been doing a little researching lately, and have found some [i]interesting[/i] statistics. Which will really show how devastating piracy is to the game developers and the effects it has on the industry.
As you may have already heard, [url=http://www.greenheartgames.com/2013/04/29/what-happens-when-pirates-play-a-game-development-simulator-and-then-go-bankrupt-because-of-piracy/]Game Dev Tycoon had a [i]93% piracy rate[/i][/url], as did [url=http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2008/11/acrying-shame-world-of-goo-piracy-rate-near-90/]World of Goo with a [i]90% piracy rate[/i][/url]. You can argue that Greenheart [i]engineered[/i] the situation, but I rebut saying that it simulates the situation the vast majority of indie games are in. But World of Goo and Game Dev Tycoon are not isolated incidents!
I found [url=http://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/hs5y5/my_ios_app_is_being_pirated_to_the_point_where/]this (old) post on r/gamedev[/url], which was about someone's [url=http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/kick-ass-destroy-the-web/id436623109?mt=8]iOS app[/url] being pirated:
[quote]The goal of the game is to destroy websites. [b]To help users find fun sites to destroy I have a button which I call "Site of the day"[/b]. This redirects to a new site everyday, and [b]I am tracking how many people press that button[/b]. Normally I would have 8-12 clicks per day, but yesterday [b]I suddenly had about 700 clicks (around 500 unique users).[/b] Of course I was excited, and today [b]when I checked how many had bought it, it was not in the 1000s that I had expected, but 12. That's around 1% of the new users.[/b] (For an app that costs $1, that is not much at all)
[...]
[b]Many people say that the pirates will market it to people who are willing to buy it, but that clearly isn't the case hear. Those ~500 users who used it yesterday did in no way affect the sales. I really can't see anything positive about this.[/b]
I'm 18 years old, I've just graduated from highschool (Gymnasium in Swedish) and was hoping to be able to make some sort of living out of this app. Yesterday I was optimistic, today I'm pessimistic about my future. [b]Why should I maintain an app where only 10% (I'm guessing even less) of the users have payed for it. Is there anything at all I can do? I'm feeling so powerless, sick to my stomach and generally depressed.[/b][/quote]
One thing to take note of is the 99% piracy rate.
Now you can argue that this is just more anecdotal evidence, especially since it's [i]just[/i] a post on Reddit; except it isn't. [url=http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=17350]Reflexive reveals that one of their games has a [i]92% piracy rate[/i][/url] and [url=http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/169124/Sports_Interactive_reveals_Football_Managers_high_piracy_rate_on_Android.php]Sports Interactive reveals Football Manager's [i]9:1 piracy ratio[/i] on Android[/url].
[quote][b]“It looks like around 92% of the people playing the full version of Ricochet Infinity pirated it.”[/b] It’s moments like those that make people in the industry stop dead in their tracks. 92% is a huge number and though we were only measuring people who had gotten the game from Reflexive and gone online with it, [b]it seemed improbable that those who acquired the game elsewhere or didn’t go online were any more likely to have purchased it.[/b] As we sat and pondered the financial implications of such piracy, it was hard to get past the magnitude of the number itself: 92%.[/quote]
[quote][b]Sports Interactive studio director [url=http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-04-24-football-manager-dev-hopes-to-stick-with-android-despite-9-1-piracy-rate]Miles Jacobson said that[/url] [i]Football Manager Handheld[/i] has seen a piracy ratio of 9:1[/b], due in part to there being "no working copy protection on the platform currently."
He admitted to Eurogamer that if the game hasn't hit financial targets within a couple of months' time, Sports Interactive does not plan to bring the next edition of the game to the Android platform.
"It's really disappointing that there are so many people out there who love our work, and spend countless hours being entertained by it, but don't think we deserve to get paid for that entertainment," he said.[/quote]
Have you noticed a common trend? All those games share a >90% piracy rate, [i]with very little increase in sales[/i] despite their high piracy rate. It results in having a really taxing effects on developers too. But does this have further reaching effects? Yes it does!
Here's a little known fact about the Nintendo DS: piracy killed it. Flash cartridges are cartridges that resemble game cartridges and are used similar to them, but can store, load, and execute games off of a MicroUSB. This means that pirating a DS game is a simple as downloading a ROM and dragging it onto a MicroUSB. So what was the result of this? [url=http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201004190412.html]An astounding [i]50% drop in sales[/i] in Europe and similar results worldwide[/url]. (Note: the article refers to them as magicoms or magic computers.)
[quote][b]Nintendo Co. said magicom hardware was largely to blame for a nearly 50-percent drop in sales in Europe in recent months.
Globally, the company estimates that annual losses are in the region of trillions of yen.[/b]
The widespread use of magicom hardware, particularly in Europe and the United States, suggests that many users do not feel that their actions are illegal or wrong.
"If I were to buy the software through the regular channels, it would cost so much," said a 32-year-old Japanese student in Los Angeles.
She purchased a magicom which included about a dozen software titles for the DS console last summer for $80 (7,500 yen) from a friend.
"Everybody is using it (magicom), and I don't feel like I am doing something particularly wrong," she said.
[b]In June 2009, Nintendo monitored 10 websites based overseas that allowed people to illicitly download game software, and found that software had been pirated a total 238 million times.
Multiplied by the average unit price for software, the figure translates into 1 trillion yen ($10.7 billion) in lost sales.[/b]
[...]
Meanwhile, the scourge has spread to Europe.
According to a U.S. study last December, Italy leads Europe in the number of illegal downloads, followed by Spain and France.
[b]Nintendo said it saw sales of its DS software plummet in Europe and some other markets by 45 percent in April-December 2009, compared to the previous year.[/b]
The drop was significantly steeper than an 11 percent fall in the United States and a 7 percent drop in Japan during the same period.[/quote]
Piracy is such a massive problem that it is even beginning to affect the 3DS. A while back, [url=http://tinycartridge.com/post/39223984600/more-nintendo-3ds-hacking-progress-hackers-have]news broke out of a breakthrough in hacking the 3DS[/url]. This caused a ripple effect as now [url=http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/184284/As_hackers_tear_into_3DS_one_studio_considers_looking_elsewhere.php#.UO7UVHd2suc]one studio is looking to develop on other, more safer platforms[/url] and [url=http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/184609/3DS_piracy_is_a_problem__because_publishers_say_so.php]publishers are becoming ever the more hesitant to innovate with such rampant piracy[/url].
[quote]"We definitely found that piracy was a significant factor in our Nintendo DS development efforts," [Peter Ong] tells us. [b]"When we approached publishers to propose potential game projects with them, most of them brought up their concerns about piracy at some point.[/b]
[b]"Many publishers even cited the issue of piracy as a specific reason why they decided to back away from our game project, especially with it being an original intellectual property concept," he adds.[/b]
"The publishers' fear was that, in a climate where piracy is commonplace, original games and new mechanics are far less likely to be successful than games based on previously successful mechanics, established licenses, sequels, and sports."
[...]
"Whether or not you should take note of piracy on the Nintendo 3DS as a serious issue depends on who you are," he says. [b]"If you celebrate the decline of one of the last platforms where great games are rewarded and held up as shining examples, then there's no need to be alarmed here. Or if you wish upon yourself (and all other 3DS gamers) a market flooded with uninspired licensed/sequel/sports games over original ideas and mechanics, then by all means there's nothing to worry about."[/b]
He continues, "There are so many things that are unique about the 3DS right now as a platform, and to see it falter would be heartbreaking."[/quote]
Piracy has a massive effect on the gaming industry, and you're deluding yourself if you think otherwise. The argument that "piracy = lost sale" seems to hold true in the grand scale of things. Now it's almost impossible to accurately calculate the conversion of pirates-to-customers, but that number seems to be minority. Instead, you have a large number of people who played your hard work without rewarding you at all, which has a massive effect in stagnating innovation.
[QUOTE=Truckasaurus1;40479114]Ok Simski, I am not making any claim. I am asking you to provide evidence to support the claim that pirates actually buy the game after pirating it. You seem to be under the impression that a large anount of pirates do this. I'm asking you to prove it with statistics. Unless you do this, it can be assumed that they are a small minority who actually purchase the game afterwards.
Posting pictures of an internet conversation means nothing.[/QUOTE]
I never made any claim that they are a majority. I made the claim that they exist (which I did prove), and the number of them who buy the game afterwards is an unknown figure (which is simple fucking logic). Because of them being an unknown figure, you can impossibly say if a pirated game is a gained sale or a lost sale. So stop fucking asking for statistics, because I have made no claim that requires statistics to prove.
[QUOTE=Simski;40481457]I never made any claim that they are a majority. I made the claim that they exist (which I did prove), and the number of them who buy the game afterwards is an unknown figure (which is simple fucking logic). Because of them being an unknown figure, you can impossibly say if a pirated game is a gained sale or a lost sale. So stop fucking asking for statistics, because I have made no claim that requires statistics to prove.[/QUOTE]
I don't even understand why I entertained this topic of debate because it assumes that pirating the game is OK if you eventually pay for it. It is not OK. The game is not your product to take. Unless you pay for it, it is not yours and you do not get to use it. This is a universal among every single product ever made. I guess you just want to make an exception because you don't want to pay for this particular one.
[editline]30th April 2013[/editline]
Also, it'd be great for you to respond to KillerJaguar's post because he very clearly proved that for several games, the pirates did not buy the game afterward.
Why is it not okay to pirate a product if you pay for it eventually?
[editline]30th April 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Truckasaurus1;40481495]Also, it'd be great for you to respond to KillerJaguar's post because he very clearly proved that for several games, the pirates did not buy the game afterward.[/QUOTE]
Sorry dude. I'm too tired to bother with both of you at once right now, especially with a bigass post like that. Maybe some other time, but it's late and I'd rather tend to my icecream
[QUOTE=Simski;40481528]Why is it not okay to pirate a product if you pay for it eventually?[/quote]
Because it's not your to have? The makers of the game get to decide who gets their product when they want and how they want. It's their product.
[quote]Sorry dude. I'm too tired to bother with both of you at once right now, especially with a bigass post like that. Maybe some other time, but it's late and I'd rather tend to my icecream[/QUOTE]
More like you'd rather not have to face up to the fact that your argument makes no sense because he just proved that pirates do not pay for the game afterwards.
[QUOTE=Truckasaurus1;40481577]Because it's not your to have? The makers of the game get to decide who gets their product when they want and how they want. It's their product.[/QUOTE]
Why should pirates give a fuck?
[QUOTE=Truckasaurus1;40481577]More like you'd rather not have to face up to the fact that your argument makes no sense because he just proved that pirates do not pay for the game afterwards.[/QUOTE]
It's a bigass wall of text with a bunch of numbers and shifty articles. Fuck that. Some other time, but it's 23.24 pm here and I'm not up for deciphering that shit right now.
[QUOTE=Simski;40481662]Why should pirates give a fuck?[/QUOTE]
Because it's not their property? What is this even supposed to mean? "A man kills another man. Why should the murderer give a fuck?" We live in a world where there is a standard set of rules that we all must abide by. If not, then there is no point in following any rule or moral in any case. Earlier you claimed that "morals are subjective and mean nothing" or something like that. Why can that not be applied to all situations, such as my example of a murderer? Why should anyone give a fuck? I mean hey, morals are subjective, and the murderer doesn't agree with the value set that murder is wrong, so why should he give a fuck? Why is it wrong to kill people if the murderer doesn't think it's wrong? Do you see how this is a useless mindset to follow?
[quote]It's a bigass wall of text with a bunch of numbers and shifty articles. Fuck that. Some other time, but it's 23.24 pm here and I'm not up for deciphering that shit right now.[/QUOTE]
This is laughable avoidance. Next time I find something I can't counter, "Oh it's too late and I can't be bothered to decipher you shitty post."
[QUOTE=Simski;40481662]It's a bigass wall of text with a bunch of numbers and shifty articles. Fuck that. Some other time, but it's 23.24 pm here and I'm not up for deciphering that shit right now.[/QUOTE]
They're not shifty articles. The majority of my sources were from Gamasutra, which is a highly reputable game development website. The odd [url=http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201004190412.html]Japanese[/url] source is Asashi Shimbun, Japan's second largest newspaper; and I'd rather cite directly from them rather than anyone who parrots them.
[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;40480366]I've been doing a little researching lately, and have found some [i]interesting[/i] statistics. Which will really show how devastating piracy is to the game developers and the effects it has on the industry.
..(snipped for length)
Piracy has a massive effect on the gaming industry, and you're deluding yourself if you think otherwise. The argument that "piracy = lost sale" seems to hold true in the grand scale of things. Now it's almost impossible to accurately calculate the conversion of pirates-to-customers, but that number seems to be minority. Instead, you have a large number of people who played your hard work without rewarding you at all, which has a massive effect in stagnating innovation.[/QUOTE]
I gotta say that this is a brilliant post and I'm glad you went to the effort to assemble it. Good to see this kind of debating done in MD.
I "tried before i bought" Counter Strike Source. When i bought that game i was introduced to steam and spent loads of money on steam games from there on out.
[QUOTE=CeeLapse;40482999]I "tried before i bought" Counter Strike Source. When i bought that game i was introduced to steam and spent loads of money on steam games from there on out.[/QUOTE]
Cool.
You still stole something.
[QUOTE=CeeLapse;40482999]I "tried before i bought" Counter Strike Source. When i bought that game i was introduced to steam and spent loads of money on steam games from there on out.[/QUOTE]
Just because you did doesn't mean everyone has. Your statement kind of relates to the fallacy of composition (what is true for a part is not true for the whole).
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
