[QUOTE=KillerJaguar;40480366]I've been doing a little researching lately, and have found some [i]interesting[/i] statistics. Which will really show how devastating piracy is to the game developers and the effects it has on the industry.
As you may have already heard, [url=http://www.greenheartgames.com/2013/04/29/what-happens-when-pirates-play-a-game-development-simulator-and-then-go-bankrupt-because-of-piracy/]Game Dev Tycoon had a [i]93% piracy rate[/i][/url], as did [url=http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2008/11/acrying-shame-world-of-goo-piracy-rate-near-90/]World of Goo with a [i]90% piracy rate[/i][/url]. You can argue that Greenheart [i]engineered[/i] the situation, but I rebut saying that it simulates the situation the vast majority of indie games are in. But World of Goo and Game Dev Tycoon are not isolated incidents!
I found [url=http://www.reddit.com/r/gamedev/comments/hs5y5/my_ios_app_is_being_pirated_to_the_point_where/]this (old) post on r/gamedev[/url], which was about someone's [url=http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/kick-ass-destroy-the-web/id436623109?mt=8]iOS app[/url] being pirated:
One thing to take note of is the 99% piracy rate.
Now you can argue that this is just more anecdotal evidence, especially since it's [i]just[/i] a post on Reddit; except it isn't. [url=http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=17350]Reflexive reveals that one of their games has a [i]92% piracy rate[/i][/url] and [url=http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/169124/Sports_Interactive_reveals_Football_Managers_high_piracy_rate_on_Android.php]Sports Interactive reveals Football Manager's [i]9:1 piracy ratio[/i] on Android[/url].
Have you noticed a common trend? All those games share a >90% piracy rate, [i]with very little increase in sales[/i] despite their high piracy rate. It results in having a really taxing effects on developers too. But does this have further reaching effects? Yes it does!
Here's a little known fact about the Nintendo DS: piracy killed it. Flash cartridges are cartridges that resemble game cartridges and are used similar to them, but can store, load, and execute games off of a MicroUSB. This means that pirating a DS game is a simple as downloading a ROM and dragging it onto a MicroUSB. So what was the result of this? [url=http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201004190412.html]An astounding [i]50% drop in sales[/i] in Europe and similar results worldwide[/url]. (Note: the article refers to them as magicoms or magic computers.)
Piracy is such a massive problem that it is even beginning to affect the 3DS. A while back, [url=http://tinycartridge.com/post/39223984600/more-nintendo-3ds-hacking-progress-hackers-have]news broke out of a breakthrough in hacking the 3DS[/url]. This caused a ripple effect as now [url=http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/184284/As_hackers_tear_into_3DS_one_studio_considers_looking_elsewhere.php#.UO7UVHd2suc]one studio is looking to develop on other, more safer platforms[/url] and [url=http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/184609/3DS_piracy_is_a_problem__because_publishers_say_so.php]publishers are becoming ever the more hesitant to innovate with such rampant piracy[/url].
Piracy has a massive effect on the gaming industry, and you're deluding yourself if you think otherwise. The argument that "piracy = lost sale" seems to hold true in the grand scale of things. Now it's almost impossible to accurately calculate the conversion of pirates-to-customers, but that number seems to be minority. Instead, you have a large number of people who played your hard work without rewarding you at all, which has a massive effect in stagnating innovation.[/QUOTE]
To add on to this, the development of custom firmware fairly early into the PSP lifespan doomed it [url=http://torrentfreak.com/psp-piracy-is-trending-up-despite-sonys-claims-081222/][Torrentfreak: PSP piracy is trending up][/url]. Developers jumped ship pretty quickly once CFW was out as it made piracy as simple as "download ROM, install, play". The Vita is having trouble attracting developers because of the same risks I believe, amongst other issues such as the price putting consumers off.
Nintendo have issues with piracy, Sony have possibly bigger issues as it is actually killing consoles in their prime, where the DS was already peaking around the time piracy became common place.
Question for people on the side of piracy:
[B]What entitles you to illegally download a game, even if you feel is unfairly priced?[/B]
[QUOTE=hexpunK;40483817]To add on to this, the development of custom firmware fairly early into the PSP lifespan doomed it [url=http://torrentfreak.com/psp-piracy-is-trending-up-despite-sonys-claims-081222/][Torrentfreak: PSP piracy is trending up][/url]. Developers jumped ship pretty quickly once CFW was out as it made piracy as simple as "download ROM, install, play". The Vita is having trouble attracting developers because of the same risks I believe, amongst other issues such as the price putting consumers off.
Nintendo have issues with piracy, Sony have possibly bigger issues as it is actually killing consoles in their prime, where the DS was already peaking around the time piracy became common place.[/QUOTE]
I did come across [url=http://gamasutra.com/view/news/128502/PS_Vita_Hopes_To_Prevent_Piracy_With_Closed_Memory_Format.php]a rather old article[/url] about the PS Vita's proprietary memory format, before it came out. It specifically mentioned they went with a closed format to help prevent piracy. I didn't mention it because I don't know enough about PSP and PS Vita, much less their piracy problems; and because the PS Vita came out.
Also, it's funny seeing a [i]TorrentFreak[/i] article proving how rampant portable hardware piracy is.
[QUOTE]Get the public demo[/QUOTE]
A very small amount of games actually still have demos and a video was posted on it here not to long ago.
If it was not for piracy I wold not own half of the games I own today.
[QUOTE=Truckasaurus1;40481926]This is laughable avoidance. Next time I find something I can't counter, "Oh it's too late and I can't be bothered to decipher you shitty post."[/QUOTE][QUOTE=KillerJaguar;40482810]They're not shifty articles. The majority of my sources were from Gamasutra, which is a highly reputable game development website. The odd [url=http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201004190412.html]Japanese[/url] source is Asashi Shimbun, Japan's second largest newspaper; and I'd rather cite directly from them rather than anyone who parrots them.[/QUOTE]
I apologize for my language but I get this way when frustrated, and furthermore I am going to apologize for ignoring that post. It might not be obvious from the length of my own posts, but I do have ADHD. I am not good at handling large amount of information all at once, I simply don't have the attention and comprehension needed to read all that and respond to it. This is why I try to keep the discussion on an logical abstract level and (despite what you seem to believe) make no solid claims of matters as fact rather than what makes the most sense logically and from observation. I do not have the attention span to research information from articles and research whether the sources are reliable, simply to have an online argument on my free time. I have made no claim as my views as solid fact, I speak only from my own observation and understanding of how things work.
Furthermore I find it hard to view those articles as more than separate incidents rather than as the evidence of piracy ruining the game industry.
[editline]1st May 2013[/editline]
I like to have discussions, but since this isn't something I get payed for I don't want to go through the effort of keeping it on an academic level.
I like to reason and be reasoned with, if this is not advanced enough for this section then I can leave if you prefer.
[QUOTE=Agoat;40484939]Question for people on the side of piracy:
[B]What entitles you to illegally download a game, even if you feel is unfairly priced?[/B][/QUOTE]
Nothing. Yet I'll keep doing it under certain circumstances. I'm not buying a game if I can't try it first unless it's a sequel, and with more and more games nowadays not having demos that means I'll download it, try it and then decide whether I'm getting it or not. It's not a lost sale if I don't buy it, because I wouldn't have bought it in the first place. The only reason I pirate it is to see whether I like it or not which I'll know after the first 1-2 levels/stages.
[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;40486806]Nothing. Yet I'll keep doing it under certain circumstances. I'm not buying a game if I can't try it first unless it's a sequel, and with more and more games nowadays not having demos that means I'll download it, try it and then decide whether I'm getting it or not. It's not a lost sale if I don't buy it, because I wouldn't have bought it in the first place. The only reason I pirate it is to see whether I like it or not which I'll know after the first 1-2 levels/stages.[/QUOTE]
The argument of "it's not a lost sale if I wouldn't buy it anyway!", because that's impossible to say in hindsight. As I've stated previously, the interest in the game already exists otherwise you wouldn't go to the effort to pirate it. There is nothing to prove that, if you hadn't have pirated the game, you wouldn't have bought it at some point in the future - perhaps when you had a greater disposable income and/or it was available as part of a really good deal.
I had no interest in Call of Duty Black Ops - but I didn't pirate it. Eventually, I got it as part of the bundle when I bought my Xbox 360. I never had much particular interest in the Hitman series - again, I didn't pirate it. But then one day I had some spare money and they were going at a really cheap price, so I thought "what the hell" and bought them. This wouldn't have happened if I had pirated them at an earlier date.
[QUOTE=David29;40487602]The argument of "it's not a lost sale if I wouldn't buy it anyway!", because that's impossible to say in hindsight. As I've stated previously, the interest in the game already exists otherwise you wouldn't go to the effort to pirate it. There is nothing to prove that, if you hadn't have pirated the game, you wouldn't have bought it at some point in the future - perhaps when you had a greater disposable income and/or it was available as part of a really good deal.
I had no interest in Call of Duty Black Ops - but I didn't pirate it. Eventually, I got it as part of the bundle when I bought my Xbox 360. I never had much particular interest in the Hitman series - again, I didn't pirate it. But then one day I had some spare money and they were going at a really cheap price, so I thought "what the hell" and bought them. This wouldn't have happened if I had pirated them at an earlier date.[/QUOTE]
Interest does not equal a sale, and whether I buy it or not is not influenced solely by the price or my available funds. If I can't try it beforehand I'm not buying it. Period. Ofcourse this varies for others but it holds true for me. Hence I do not have any problems with downloading-before-you-buy. Don't get me wrong I completely agree pirating a game and never buying it is wrong, but when it's basically being used as a game demo I think it's acceptable because of the intent behind it.
Sidenote: Your title is incredibly obnoxious.
[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;40487652]Interest does not equal a sale, and whether I buy it or not is not influenced solely by the price or my available funds. If I can't try it beforehand I'm not buying it. Period. Ofcourse this varies for others but it holds true for me. Hence I do not have any problems with downloading-before-you-buy[/QUOTE]
But interest equals a potential sale.
And if you don't want to buy a game - fine, that's great. I don't take issue with that. [b]Bust don't pirate it[/b]. If you have the desire to pirate the game, then clearly you want it and therefore you should pay for it. If you do not think that the game is worth the price, or you do not want to take the risk of buying because you are unsure if you will enjoy it, then just do without it.
Piracy is not the acceptable alternative. Not owning the game is the acceptable alternative.
[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;40487652]Sidenote: Your title is incredibly obnoxious.[/QUOTE]
How is that relevant in any way?
[QUOTE=David29;40487681]But interest equals a potential sale.
And if you don't want to buy a game - fine, that's great. I don't take issue with that. [b]Bust don't pirate it[/b]. If you have the desire to pirate the game, then clearly you want it and therefore you should pay for it. If you do not think that the game is worth the price, or you do not want to take the risk of buying because you are unsure if you will enjoy it, then just do without it.
Piracy is not the acceptable alternative. Not owning the game is the acceptable alternative.[/quote]
Keyword: [b]potential[/b]. Wouldn't buy it at the moment but I'm not opposed to buying it if the demo can persuade me otherwise. Pirating the game doesn't mean I want it (For me at least) . It means I want to try it before paying for it - just like playing the demo doesn't mean I want it. Any games I pirate I do literally because I use it as a demo - and nothing else. If I enjoy the first 1-2 levels, I'm deleting the pirated copy and buy a legit version. If I don't enjoy it, I don't buy it - just like I would've done if I hadn't pirated it.
[QUOTE=David29;40487681]
How is that relevant in any way?[/QUOTE]
It is not.
Frankly I am of the opinion that I should enjoy myself before I die, couldn't possibly afford all the games I play. If there's literally no penalty for doing something illegal, and no one will hunt you down, then I'll do it. Morals? They don't exist. If companies want to ensure their profits, they have to figure it out, or get the government to be more stringent.
[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;40487739]Keyword: [b]potential[/b]. Wouldn't buy it at the moment but I'm not opposed to buying it if the demo can persuade me otherwise. Pirating the game doesn't mean I want it (For me at least) . It means I want to try it before paying for it - just like playing the demo doesn't mean I want it. Any games I pirate I do literally because I use it as a demo - and nothing else. If I enjoy the first 1-2 levels, I'm deleting the pirated copy and buy a legit version. If I don't enjoy it, I don't buy it - just like I would've done if I hadn't pirated it.[/QUOTE]
I don't understand where people are getting this wild notion from that they are entitled to try the whole game before deciding whether to part with their money or not.
1. You not entitiled to a demo. It is not a right. It is down to you to make a calculated assessment on whether you think a game is worth your money or not - and there are plenty of ways to do this (reviews, videos, etc).
2. You are barking mad if you think it is reasonable for you to have access to the full game and then decide not to pay for it. You experienced the full game - you should pay for that experience.
3. Developers and publishers are not going to accept your word that you only played a small portion of the game and then deleted it. Again, you are barking mad if you think everything you are doing is ok because you have given your word.
[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;40487739]It is not.[/QUOTE]
Then why say that? It just sounds like you are trying to be an arse towards me for no reason.
[QUOTE=Rampage147;40487990]Frankly I am of the opinion that I should enjoy myself before I die, couldn't possibly afford all the games I play. If there's literally no penalty for doing something illegal, and no one will hunt you down, then I'll do it. Morals? They don't exist. If companies want to ensure their profits, they have to figure it out, or get the government to be more stringent.[/QUOTE]
To be honest, I have less of an issue with your train of thought because at least you aren't trying to morally justify it.
[QUOTE=David29;40488017]I don't understand where people are getting this wild notion from that they are entitled to try the whole game before deciding whether to part with their money or not.
1. You not entitiled to a demo. It is not a right. It is down to you to make a calculated assessment on whether you think a game is worth your money or not - and there are plenty of ways to do this (reviews, videos, etc).
2. You are barking mad if you think it is reasonable for you to have access to the full game and then decide not to pay for it. You experienced the full game - you should pay for that experience.
3. Developers and publishers are not going to accept your word that you only played a small portion of the game and then deleted it. Again, you are barking mad if you think everything you are doing is ok because you have given your word.[/quote]
It would help if you would actually [b]read[/b] before replying. I specifically stated I play the first 1-2 levels, not the whole game. Reviews/videos don't mean shit. There's been plenty of games that looked interesting from videos yet when actually playing it they were boring as hell. The only way to properly decide whether a game is for you or not is to try it.
Points 2 and 3 are not applicable to my argument because they refer to playing the whole game - which I already said multiple times I don't.
[QUOTE=David29;40488017]
Then why say that? It just sounds like you are trying to be an arse towards me for no reason.[/QUOTE]
It would also help if you didn't take everything personal. It was a light remark intended to brighten the mood.
[QUOTE=Rampage147;40487990] Morals? They don't exist.[/QUOTE]
Whoa. Whoa whoa whoa whoa. Are you serious? So the only barrier from you killing someone because you think their vest would look good on you is that you'll probably get caught by the authorities and punished?
I sure hope not. It's an absurd argument to justify piracy by saying that morality doesn't exist. If the reason you use to justify piracy is that you just don't give a shit about what's right or wrong or about the people affected (including players/consumers who have to deal with DRM) then I understand your rationale perfectly. I'll just think that you're a bit of a douche.
[editline]1st May 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;40488059]It would help if you would actually [b]read[/b] before replying. I specifically stated I play the first 1-2 levels, not the whole game. Reviews/videos don't mean shit. There's been plenty of games that looked interesting from videos yet when actually playing it they were boring as hell. The only way to properly decide whether a game is for you or not is to try it.
Points 2 and 3 are not applicable to my argument because they either refer to playing the whole game - which I already said multiple times I don't.
[/QUOTE]
It's still a poor excuse. If you want to play it safe and don't feel like risking your money then don't buy it. What if the ending completely lets down the game or the gameplay changes drastically later? What if you just bored bored after a few hours? You're always going to take risks when buying anything.
BuffaloBill is continuously stating that he finds it fine to steal something and use and and then decide later if he wants to pay. He keeps asserting this without explaining himself. Why is it OK to use a product first and then pay at your own whim. I mean, can this logic not be applied to all purchases? "I don't know if I will like the meal so I'll eat first and then pay if I enjoy it." "I'm going to read the entire book first and then pay later because I might not like it."
Also, you claim that you need to actually play a game to know if you'll like it or not. I'm betting that you'd claim that "I can't just play the demo because it leaves things out!" (Not all demos do this so that's invalid, but we'll go with it for a second) In order for this to be true, you must actually play through the entire game to the very end in order to know if it's "good" or not. If not, you'd never know because "the demo might leave something out!" So you actually have to expend every option in the game to know whether to pay for it. I've sunk many an hour into Skyrim and I've still yet to complete everything. By your logic, it would be O.K. for me to not pay for it yet because, who knows, it might turn out bad at the end. And for some strange reason it is up to me whether the developers get money. This is ridiculous logic that seems to only apply to digital media. You can probably guess why: because it's easy to steal.
[QUOTE=Truckasaurus1;40488575]BuffaloBill is continuously stating that he finds it fine to steal something and use and and then decide later if he wants to pay. He keeps asserting this without explaining himself. Why is it OK to use a product first and then pay at your own whim. I mean, can this logic not be applied to all purchases? "I don't know if I will like the meal so I'll eat first and then pay if I enjoy it." "I'm going to read the entire book first and then pay later because I might not like it."
Also, you claim that you need to actually play a game to know if you'll like it or not. I'm betting that you'd claim that "I can't just play the demo because it leaves things out!" (Not all demos do this so that's invalid, but we'll go with it for a second) In order for this to be true, you must actually play through the entire game to the very end in order to know if it's "good" or not. If not, you'd never know because "the demo might leave something out!" So you actually have to expend every option in the game to know whether to pay for it. I've sunk many an hour into Skyrim and I've still yet to complete everything. By your logic, it would be O.K. for me to not pay for it yet because, who knows, it might turn out bad at the end. And for some strange reason it is up to me whether the developers get money. This is ridiculous logic that seems to only apply to digital media. You can probably guess why: because it's easy to steal.[/QUOTE]
You really are blind. I'm stating it's ok to download a game, [b]try 1 or 2 levels[/b] and then decide if you want the full product or not [b]if there's no official demo available[/b].
The rest is complete and utter unfounded bullshit full of strawman arguments. It's like you completely ignored [url=http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1197218&p=40487652&viewfull=1#post40487652] an earlier post of mine[/url].
[QUOTE=Jabberwocky;40488060]It's still a poor excuse. If you want to play it safe and don't feel like risking your money then don't buy it.[/QUOTE]
Shit reasoning IMO. Why should you avoid testing something before you buy it because of some dumbass principle? Why "avoid risking your money by not buying it", when you can try it out to eliminate the risk of it being shit so you can be certain it's worth your money? This is one of the ways piracy can be a gained sale, because the customer would not have considered buying the product if he had not felt pleased trying out the pirated version first and being reassured it was worth spending money on.
I don't pirate games or software, but I understand why people do. Sony Vegas for example. Vegas Pro 12 suite costs nearly £600! That's ridiculous. Why pay such a huge amount when you can click a few buttons and get it for free. If Sony didn't charge such a stupid price for their software people might buy it
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/W4SxSJ0.jpg[/IMG]
[editline]1st May 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Truckasaurus1;40483175]Cool.
You still stole something.[/QUOTE]
[IMG]http://jeremygohblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/wpid-tumblr_l9z3t8oCbJ1qzl2uzo1_500.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;40488059]It would help if you would actually [b]read[/b] before replying. I specifically stated I play the first 1-2 levels, not the whole game. Reviews/videos don't mean shit. There's been plenty of games that looked interesting from videos yet when actually playing it they were boring as hell. The only way to properly decide whether a game is for you or not is to try it.
Points 2 and 3 are not applicable to my argument because they refer to playing the whole game - which I already said multiple times I don't.[/QUOTE]
I find it annoying when people accuse me of not reading their posts, when actually I did and it is themselves who can't read. Case in point:
"3. Developers and publishers are not going to accept your word that [b]you only played a small portion of the game and then deleted it[/b]. Again, you are barking mad if you think everything you are doing is ok because you have given your word."
And also, on reflection, I would like to make an addendum to the first sentance of that point:
"3. Developers and publishers are not going to accept your word that you only played a small portion of the game and then deleted it - [i]and neither will I[/i]."
Since it makes no logical sense to admit that you play the full game and then don't delete it as this would destroy your argument - of course you would say that you only try a portion on the game and then delete it if you don't like it. Admittedly, I cannot prove you don't do this - but likewise you cannot prove you do and since the burden of proof is on you, I call 'bollocks'.
[QUOTE=Leestons;40489116][IMG]http://jeremygohblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/wpid-tumblr_l9z3t8oCbJ1qzl2uzo1_500.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
"It's ok because I am only copying it!"
There is this fallacy that just because it's a copy, it's all fine and dandy. Wrong. Let's say a company makes a game, and sells one copy. Then that copy get's copied. Then the copy's copy gets copied. Then the copy's copy's copy gets copied - and so on. There could be, in the end, a million copies of the game in existance - but the company would have only made one sale. How is that fair at all?
[QUOTE=Agoat;40484939]Question for people on the side of piracy:
[B]What entitles you to illegally download a game, even if you feel is unfairly priced?[/B][/QUOTE]
well is there a real diference betwen pirating a game and boycotting a game from a developer's point?
you still get 0 money out of it, and if people werent planning on buying it, and they pirate it, they probably wont enjoy it as much as the people who bought it, and if they boycott it well you still dont get any fucking money, so what's the diference? listen to your consumers and price accordingly.
I speak from experience that when i pirate a game I either buy it later, because asking for a demo is too much apparently, or I don't finish it because i knew it was shit.
[QUOTE=David29;40489629]I find it annoying when people accuse me of not reading their posts, when actually I did and it is themselves who can't read. Case in point:
"3. Developers and publishers are not going to accept your word that [b]you only played a small portion of the game and then deleted it[/b]. Again, you are barking mad if you think everything you are doing is ok because you have given your word."
And also, on reflection, I would like to make an addendum to the first sentance of that point:
"3. Developers and publishers are not going to accept your word that you only played a small portion of the game and then deleted it - [i]and neither will I[/i]."
Since it makes no logical sense to admit that you play the full game and then don't delete it as this would destroy your argument - of course you would say that you only try a portion on the game and then delete it if you don't like it. Admittedly, I cannot prove you don't do this - but likewise you cannot prove you do and since the burden of proof is on you, I call 'bollocks'.
[/QUOTE]
I read that, and my point still stands. The rest of your post was about playing the full game then deciding not to buy it. I don't give 2 shits whether you believe that I don't do that as that is utterly irrelevant. My argument is that if you do that I have no problems with piracy -you're using the pirated copy as a demo and delete it again quickly.
Basically your post boils down to "I don't believe you thus you have no argument".
[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;40489741]I read that, and my point still stands.[/QUOTE]
Well, clearly you didn't, otherwise you wouldn't have accused me of not reading your post.
[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;40489741]The rest of your post was about playing the full game then deciding not to buy it. I don't give 2 shits whether you believe that I don't do that as that is utterly irrelevant. My argument is that if you do that I have no problems with piracy -you're using the pirated copy as a demo and delete it again quickly.
Basically your post boils down to "I don't believe you thus you have no argument".[/QUOTE]
Essentially yes - without proof that pirates (that is, other pirates as well as yourself) only play a portion of the game and delete it afterwards, you don't have an argument. Otherwise you are basically saying "x is true because I said so".
And it because of this that piracy can never be used to try a game. There is no control over how much of the game the pirate actually experiences. I have found videos to work as a perfectly good substitute - especially 'Let's Play' videos. They fully show off gameplay and give a good impression of the game plays - with commentary by the video creator giving his thought on good and bad points. Developers and Publishers should not lose sales just because pirates think they are entitled (when they aren't) to a full playable demonstration.
[QUOTE=David29;40490271]Well, clearly you didn't, otherwise you wouldn't have accused me of not reading your post.
Essentially yes - without proof that pirates (that is, other pirates as well as yourself) only play a portion of the game and delete it afterwards, you don't have an argument. Otherwise you are basically saying "x is true because I said so".
And it because of this that piracy can never be used to try a game. There is no control over how much of the game the pirate actually experiences. I have found videos to work as a perfectly good substitute - especially 'Let's Play' videos. They fully show off gameplay and give a good impression of the game plays - with commentary by the video creator giving his thought on good and bad points. Developers and Publishers should not lose sales just because pirates think they are entitled (when they aren't) to a full playable demonstration.[/QUOTE]
Holy fuck you really aren't reading. I said under those circumstances I have no problems with it. I did not claim anything other than that: if there's no demo and it's only used as a substitute demo, ok. Other than that, piracy is bad. Who said anything about pirates being entitled to a full playable demonstration?
[QUOTE=Leestons;40489116]I don't pirate games or software, but I understand why people do. Sony Vegas for example. Vegas Pro 12 suite costs nearly £600! That's ridiculous. Why pay such a huge amount when you can click a few buttons and get it for free. If Sony didn't charge such a stupid price for their software people might buy it
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/W4SxSJ0.jpg[/IMG]
[editline]1st May 2013[/editline]
[IMG]http://jeremygohblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/wpid-tumblr_l9z3t8oCbJ1qzl2uzo1_500.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
Cute. Image Macros. These aren't arguments just so you know, these make you look like a fool.
Just because you are copying something does not mean it is not a form of theft. You are taking something you have no right, no entitlement to. Just because it is a copy does not mean it does not harm anyone. The fact it is a copy is totally irrelevant, you are still obtaining the property of another person (the IP) without their consent, or knowledge. It is a form of theft, the only difference is the name you chose to give it.
Nothing really justifies it unless the thing you are pirating is completely unavailable through legal means, and then it's pretty grey area to me, yeah you can't get it any other way, but it's an entertainment media, you don't [B]need[/B] to obtain it to survive. You can live without it and attempt to get legal methods of distribution organised by contacting the seller/ developers.
[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;40490310]Holy fuck you really aren't reading.[/QUOTE]
Stop this, you're starting to get annoying.
[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;40490310]I said under those circumstances I have no problems with it. I did not claim anything other than that: if there's no demo and it's only used as a substitute demo, ok. Other than that, piracy is bad. Who said anything about pirates being entitled to a full playable demonstration?[/QUOTE]
"(that is, other pirates as well as yourself)"
I'm not just talking about you. I'm talking other pirates as well. Read my posts carefully. Furthermore, I am explaining why using piracy for a trial basis is bad under all circumstances - which is directly addressing your issue that you think it is ok.
All you are doing is accusing me of being unable to read - when actually I read your points and addressed them.
[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;40488701]You really are blind. I'm stating it's ok to download a game, [b]try 1 or 2 levels[/b] and then decide if you want the full product or not [b]if there's no official demo available[/b].
The rest is complete and utter unfounded bullshit full of strawman arguments. It's like you completely ignored [url=http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1197218&p=40487652&viewfull=1#post40487652] an earlier post of mine[/url].[/QUOTE]
Well to be honest I was actually replying to other pirates in this thread who had posted before. I apologize for targeting you. However, there remains the fact that you believe yourself to be entitled to a demo. A demo is not a right. Why does the producer of a product have to provide a demo?
[QUOTE=Simski;40488869]Shit reasoning IMO. Why should you avoid testing something before you buy it because of some dumbass principle?[/QUOTE]
Just to be clear, is that 'dumbass principle' the guaranteed right of the creator to control his own work? Is that the 'dumbass principle' we're talking about, the right to decide who can do what with the things you create and sell?
I take it you're one of those people who starts a fuss at the bookstore because you expect to be able to read the whole book before deciding whether to purchase it?
[QUOTE=Rockeiro123;40489723]well is there a real diference betwen pirating a game and boycotting a game from a developer's point?
you still get 0 money out of it, and if people werent planning on buying it, and they pirate it, they probably wont enjoy it as much as the people who bought it, and if they boycott it well you still dont get any fucking money, so what's the diference? listen to your consumers and price accordingly.
I speak from experience that when i pirate a game I either buy it later, because asking for a demo is too much apparently, or I don't finish it because i knew it was shit.[/QUOTE]
If the developer won't provide a demo, what gives you the right to steal it to see if you deem it worthy of your hard-earned money? We live in a world where everything is filmed and put on YouTube, you should be able to (at the very least) get a general idea of what a game will be like through previews and gameplay demonstrations online. Even if you can't figure it out, it demonstrates a huge amount of self-entitlement to take from the developers, who worked very hard to make their product a reality. So, I repeat my question, [B]what entitles you to illegally download a game?[/B]
[QUOTE=David29;40490271]Essentially yes - without proof that pirates (that is, other pirates as well as yourself) only play a portion of the game and delete it afterwards, you don't have an argument. Otherwise you are basically saying "x is true because I said so".[/QUOTE]
Doesn't that work both ways. He has no proof that pirates only play a portion of the game and delete it afterwards, and you have no proof that they don't. Absence of evidence is after all not evidence of absence.
[QUOTE=catbarf;40496875]I take it you're one of those people who starts a fuss at the bookstore because you expect to be able to read the whole book before deciding whether to purchase it?[/QUOTE]
I'm the kind of guy that borrows the book from a friend if I'm uncertain I'll like it, and buy it later if I consider is good enough to add to my collection :3
(Which is actually kind of amusing since personally I never pirate games, haha. Man, you couldn't have picked a worse metaphor for me).
[QUOTE=Truckasaurus1;40496783]Well to be honest I was actually replying to other pirates in this thread who had posted before. I apologize for targeting you. However, there remains the fact that you believe yourself to be entitled to a demo. A demo is not a right. Why does the producer of a product have to provide a demo?[/QUOTE]
Kudos for apologising.
I don't think I am entitled to a demo, however I do think it's weird that developers can make a game and expect me to buy it based on nothing but looks/what other people say without letting me try it out myself (a bit of it I mean).
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
