Piracy? or Try before you buy? - General

[QUOTE=Simski;40497993]Doesn't that work both ways. He has no proof that pirates only play a portion of the game and delete it afterwards, and you have no proof that they don't. Absence of evidence is after all not evidence of absence.[/QUOTE] But, as I pointed out earlier, the burden of proof is with you guys. Even then, evidence has been posted to show that piracy is damaging to the industry and that therefore pirates aren't buying the games. But it seems that this evidence has been ignored...

[QUOTE=Agoat;40497812]If the developer won't provide a demo, what gives you the right to steal it to see if you deem it worthy of your hard-earned money? We live in a world where everything is filmed and put on YouTube, you should be able to (at the very least) get a general idea of what a game will be like through previews and gameplay demonstrations online. Even if you can't figure it out, it demonstrates a huge amount of self-entitlement to take from the developers, who worked very hard to make their product a reality. So, I repeat my question, [B]what entitles you to illegally download a game?[/B][/QUOTE] If I can test drive a car before i buy it, why can't I do the same with games? What makes the games industry so diferent that there's no try before you buy method? Also Previews and gameplay demonstrations are put by people I don't know and arent me, you don't get a feel for the games mechanics and atmospher by watching people play this isnt a movie, it's a fucking game if you aren't interacting with it you're doing it wrong.

[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;40498901]Kudos for apologising. I don't think I am entitled to a demo, however I do think it's weird that developers can make a game and expect me to buy it based on nothing but looks/what other people say without letting me try it out myself (a bit of it I mean).[/QUOTE] This is literally the exact case that exists for every product ever made. Why is digital media exempt? [editline]2nd May 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Rockeiro123;40500598]If I can test drive a car before i buy it, why can't I do the same with games? What makes the games industry so diferent that there's no try before you buy method? Also Previews and gameplay demonstrations are put by people I don't know and arent me, you don't get a feel for the games mechanics and atmospher by watching people play this isnt a movie, it's a fucking game if you aren't interacting with it you're doing it wrong.[/QUOTE] You don't always get to test drive cars though. Do that give you the right to steal the keys and take it for a spin without permission?

[QUOTE=Truckasaurus1;40500787] You don't always get to test drive cars though. Do that give you the right to steal the keys and take it for a spin without permission?[/QUOTE] No I'd simply not buy the car because the dealer obviously doesnt want my money.

[QUOTE=Rockeiro123;40500878]No I'd simply not buy the car because the dealer obviously doesnt want my money.[/QUOTE] Don't pirate games then because that's displaying an interest in them and is why legitimate users are plagued with DRM.

[QUOTE=Antdawg;40500979]Don't pirate games then because that's displaying an interest in them and is why legitimate users are plagued with DRM.[/QUOTE] Then how do I tell a publisher their busines practices are shit? because clearly they care about about what their customers think.

[QUOTE=Rockeiro123;40500997]Then how do I tell a publisher their busines practices are shit? because clearly they care about about what their customers think.[/QUOTE] How about not showing any interest in the game at all, especially not even buying it? Vote with you wallet, because that's the clearest way for consumers to communicate to businesses. If you live in a market economy you may as well make best use of the privileges given to you.

[QUOTE=Rockeiro123;40500997]Then how do I tell a publisher their busines practices are shit? because clearly they care about about what their customers think.[/QUOTE] Don't buy their games? And if you're not buying their games, don't play them? The point of boycotting is to sacrifice something in order to make a point. "I'd really like to buy your game but because I think that you're doing x, y and z, actions which I strongly oppose, I won't buy it." When you pirate things, it doesn't say "change your ways", it just says "I'm unfairly taking your services for free." How would you respond? A normal person would try to make it harder, preferably impossible, for piracy to occur.

[QUOTE=Truckasaurus1;40500787]This is literally the exact case that exists for every product ever made. Why is digital media exempt?[/quote] Not at all. Most products have demonstration models available (at least over here @ NL) so you can see for yourself how it works and interact with it. [QUOTE=Truckasaurus1;40500787] You don't always get to test drive cars though. Do that give you the right to steal the keys and take it for a spin without permission?[/QUOTE] Fairly certain over here I can test-drive any car I want if I ask for it. [QUOTE=Jabberwocky;40501140]Don't buy their games? And if you're not buying their games, don't play them? The point of boycotting is to sacrifice something in order to make a point. "I'd really like to buy your game but because I think that you're doing x, y and z, actions which I strongly oppose, I won't buy it." When you pirate things, it doesn't say "change your ways", it just says "I'm unfairly taking your services for free." How would you respond? A normal person would try to make it harder, preferably impossible, for piracy to occur.[/QUOTE] Most developers simply don't care, as long as they sell. And if it doesn't sell enough, it's usually blamed on either not enough marketing or too much piracy. Extremely rarely will developers/publishers admit they simply made a bland, uninspired product and instead blame it on other factors.

[QUOTE=Rockeiro123;40500598]If I can test drive a car before i buy it, why can't I do the same with games? What makes the games industry so diferent that there's no try before you buy method?[/QUOTE] A car is not consumer entertainment. No movie theater will let you watch a movie and then decide afterwards if it's worth paying for. Bookstores generally don't let you read an entire book, then decide whether or not to buy it. And yet, there are demos. But if a game doesn't have a demo, and watching a Let's Play or something on Youtube isn't good enough to give you a feel for the game, then don't buy it I guess? It doesn't justify pirating it.

[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;40501307]Fairly certain over here I can test-drive any car I want if I ask for it.[/QUOTE] But the car salesman doesn't say "here you go, take the car and return it when you want. Seriously, keep it for 10 years if you want - I have complete faith that you will return it someday. And then, when you have returned it as you have promised, you can then decide whether to purchase it or not". [QUOTE=BuffaloBill;40501307]Most developers simply don't care, as long as they sell. And if it doesn't sell enough, it's usually blamed on either not enough marketing or too much piracy. Extremely rarely will developers/publishers admit they simply made a bland, uninspired product and instead blame it on other factors.[/QUOTE] So a business making a "bland, uninspired product" justifies piracy? Surely if it was that bad you would just not have anything to do with it.

[QUOTE=David29;40501396]But the car salesman doesn't say "here you go, take the car and return it when you want. Seriously, keep it for 10 years if you want - I have complete faith that you will return it someday. And then, when you have returned it as you have promised, you can then decide whether to purchase it or not".[/quote] Exactly how is this comparison relevant? [QUOTE=David29;40501396] So a business making a "bland, uninspired product" justifies piracy? Surely if it was that bad you would just not have anything to do with it.[/QUOTE] Don't put words in my mouth, I never said it justifies piracy. I was responding Jabberwocky's statement that a good way to protest is to not buy it at all. People not buying the game will not get the developer to realise that he made a faulty product most of the time.

[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;40501899]Exactly how is this comparison relevant?[/QUOTE] Because it shows that trying the use the 'test drive' analogy to support try-before-you-buy piracy doesn't work. [QUOTE=BuffaloBill;40501899]Don't put words in my mouth, I never said it justifies piracy. I was responding Jabberwocky's statement that a good way to protest is to not buy it at all. People not buying the game will not get the developer to realise that he made a faulty product most of the time.[/QUOTE] It was a logical deduction. Allow me to explain. You see a game and there are three simple options: 1. You buy the game. Clearly you aren't going to do this because in this scenario you want to protest the publisher/developer. 2. You don't buy the game/boycott the game. Again, not an option since apparantly you think it wont work. 3. You pirate the game. This is your only remaining option - yet you claim that you aren't going to pirate it either. So, a game exists and you're not going to buy it, you're not [b]not[/b] going to buy it, and you also aren't going to pirate it either. You already weren't going to buy it or boycott it, so - although admittedly, no, you didn't say "it justifies piracy" - your only remaining position would be to pirate the game. From here, you can either admit that you are wrongly pirating the game - or try to justify it. Hence, the reason behind the comments in my last post.

Piracy vs Quality. Most pirates buy content they enjoy and find to be at high-quality\standard. Most stuff is junk these days so piracy has increased due to people pissed off at being swindled with "rubbish".

[QUOTE=Sword and Paint;40502115]Piracy vs Quality. Most pirates buy content they enjoy and find to be at high-quality\standard. Most stuff is junk these days so piracy has increased due to people pissed off at being swindled with "rubbish".[/QUOTE] Ah, the fallacy of entitlement.

[QUOTE=Rockeiro123;40500598]If I can test drive a car before i buy it, why can't I do the same with games?[/QUOTE] Except the dealer [i]allows[/i] you to test drive a car. A developer chooses whether or not they let you "test drive" it with a demo. [url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/122056-Game-Dev-Claims-Demos-Hurt-Game-Sales]Which they often choose not to do because it hurts game sales[/url]. You can't decide what [i]you[/i] think is best for them.

[QUOTE=David29;40502093]Because it shows that trying the use the 'test drive' analogy to support try-before-you-buy piracy doesn't work.[/quote] What When did a test drive become "as long as you like"? [QUOTE=David29;40502093] It was a logical deduction. Allow me to explain. You see a game and there are three simple options: 1. You buy the game. Clearly you aren't going to do this because in this scenario you want to protest the publisher/developer. 2. You don't buy the game/boycott the game. Again, not an option since apparantly you think it wont work. 3. You pirate the game. This is your only remaining option - yet you claim that you aren't going to pirate it either. So, a game exists and you're not going to buy it, you're not [b]not[/b] going to buy it, and you also aren't going to pirate it either. You already weren't going to buy it or boycott it, so - although admittedly, no, you didn't say "it justifies piracy" - your only remaining position would be to pirate the game. From here, you can either admit that you are wrongly pirating the game - or try to justify it. Hence, the reason behind the comments in my last post.[/QUOTE] Your 'logic' makes no sense. Just because I think not buying it isn't an effective way to show my dislike, that means it's not an option and I will not 'not buy it'? The fuck are you even trying to prove/say/argue here? [QUOTE=David29;40502154]Ah, the fallacy of entitlement.[/QUOTE] It's pretty fucking fair for people to want value for their money. [QUOTE=KillerJaguar;40502755]Except the dealer [i]allows[/i] you to test drive a car. A developer chooses whether or not they let you "test drive" it with a demo. [url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/122056-Game-Dev-Claims-Demos-Hurt-Game-Sales]Which they often choose not to do because it hurts game sales[/url]. You can't decide what [i]you[/i] think is best for them.[/QUOTE] This always amused me. Isn't the demo's whole point to showcase your game, to give people that little extra nudge that makes them decide "yeah I'm getting this"? If a gamer's interest in your game is gone after playing the demo, doesn't that (generally) mean your demo (or game as a whole) simply isn't interesting for that person?

[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;40502810]What When did a test drive become "as long as you like"? [/QUOTE] In the same way "pirating it to try it" involves you now having a fully functional version of the media you have pirated. That's how the analogy fails to work, if you can't see that, then I think you're done here. When you test drive a car, you don't keep a working duplicate, when you demo a game, you don't get the full thing. When you pirate you do, so comparing piracy as "a demo" to a test drive is fucking stupid. [QUOTE=BuffaloBill;40502810] It's pretty fucking fair for people to want value for their money. [/quote] Yeah whatever, if people want value for money they should either not buy the game, or boycott it. Not pirate it. Developers use the piracy numbers to gauge interest in a series, along with sales numbers, the publishers use sales numbers. If a developer sees high piracy rates, they know there is some interest in the game, so they will make another one. If you want "quality" games, stop being a fucking moron and actually take a stand against the "bad" games by just totally ignoring them. This seems to be the one thing pirates don't understand in the slightest. Pirating does not stop awful games, if anything it encourages them to a similar degree as buying them. [QUOTE=BuffaloBill;40502810]This always amused me. Isn't the demo's whole point to showcase your game, to give people that little extra nudge that makes them decide "yeah I'm getting this"? If a gamer's interest in your game is gone after playing the demo, doesn't that (generally) mean your demo (or game as a whole) simply isn't interesting for that person?[/QUOTE] Demos aren't exactly great. They can lie as much as any reviewer, they cost a lot in terms of time and money to produce and distribute (despite what you may think, a demo isn't just a part lifted from a finished game, they need to program constraints into it, distribute it, etc). Yeah demos are nice, but you aren't entitled to them. The video game industry seems to be the only media/ consumable industry where the customers actually think they are entitled to try something out for extended periods of time before buying it. Do you demand a demo of an album before you purchase it? What about a demo of a film? A demo of a three course meal? A demo of the clothes you are wearing (as in, more than just seeing if they fit)? If you answered yes to any of these, then I want to know what world you are living on. Yeah it'd be nice if we could have some of these things, but they aren't economically feasible.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;40502953]In the same way "pirating it to try it" involves you now having a fully functional version of the media you have pirated. That's how the analogy fails to work, if you can't see that, then I think you're done here. When you test drive a car, you don't keep a working duplicate, when you demo a game, you don't get the full thing. When you pirate you do, so comparing piracy as "a demo" to a test drive is fucking stupid.[/quote] I never compared those 2 directly, I said that's how I use it if they don't give out a full demo. [QUOTE=hexpunK;40502953] Yeah whatever, if people want value for money they should either not buy the game, or boycott it. Not pirate it. Developers use the piracy numbers to gauge interest in a series, along with sales numbers, the publishers use sales numbers. If a developer sees high piracy rates, they know there is some interest in the game, so they will make another one.[/quote] Never said people should pirate it if they want value for money, just that value for money is a more than reasonable demand. [QUOTE=hexpunK;40502953] If you want "quality" games, stop being a fucking moron and actually take a stand against the "bad" games by just totally ignoring them. This seems to be the one thing pirates don't understand in the slightest. Pirating does not stop awful games, if anything it encourages them to a similar degree as buying them.[/quote] Chill, no need to get aggressive. [QUOTE=hexpunK;40502953] Demos aren't exactly great. They can lie as much as any reviewer, they cost a lot in terms of time and money to produce and distribute (despite what you may think, a demo isn't just a part lifted from a finished game, they need to program constraints into it, distribute it, etc). [/QUOTE] Yep, they can. Doesn't change the fact that at least they give people a chance to try a part of the game themselves.

Let's be honest, it's all about the piracy. Then you discover how you cant play online and you buy the game :p.

[QUOTE=BuffaloBill;40502810]What When did a test drive become "as long as you like"?[/QUOTE] It didn't. That's the exact point. Test drives are [b]limited[/b] and [b]controlled[/b] demonstrations - the fact that you seem perplexed at the idea of anything different in the case of cars makes me wonder why the hell you think that it should be any different for games. [QUOTE=BuffaloBill;40502810]Your 'logic' makes no sense. Just because I think not buying it isn't an effective way to show my dislike, that means it's not an option and I will not 'not buy it'? The fuck are you even trying to prove/say/argue here?[/QUOTE] Oh, good, so we are in agreement then that it's not right to pirate a game just because the game is bad? [QUOTE=BuffaloBill;40502810]It's pretty fucking fair for people to want value for their money.[/QUOTE] First: Game developers owe nothing to their customers - from a basic transactional point of view. Yes, custom loyalty is important to some companies, but unless you have pre-ordered the game then they are not required to deliver the game. Even if they do, and you have pre-ordered, there is no legal requirement of it to be of a set quality - except if it was defective to the point of being unplayable. If you had preordered the game then yes, that would be unfair. If you hadn't, though, then no - it isn't unfair. It is down to you to make a judgement on whether a game is good or not. If I got a restaurant and say "I want a refund - I didn't like my food and I think it was unfair" I would be laughed at. 'Fairness' does not exist in business. Second: Pirates are no bloody position to dictate on 'fairness'.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;40502953]Developers use the piracy numbers to gauge interest in a series, along with sales numbers, the publishers use sales numbers. If a developer sees high piracy rates, they know there is some interest in the game, so they will make another one.[/QUOTE] A lot of people pirate to try a product out. If your product has a high rate of pirates and sales, many of those pirates are probably people that are now part of your sales number because they liked your product. If your product has a high rate of pirates but low amount of sales, then yes that shows that pirates are interested in your product, but the low amount of sales compared to pirates show that the product does not pass their test (price/availability/service/quality) and therefor their interest in buying the product has been lost. [QUOTE=hexpunK;40502953]]Yeah whatever, if people want value for money they should either not buy the game, or boycott it. Not pirate it.[/quote] Problem here is that many pirates usually do have some interest in the product if they pirate it. Interest enough to try it out, but not interest enough to buy a pig in a poke. People don't want to waste money on a product that turns out to be bad, but they can't know if it's good until they try it out. By not buying or by boycotting the product you do show that you're not interested in the product, but by pirating the product you can show that you're interested IF the product lives up to your expectations, alternatively you show that you actually have tried the product and that you were disappointed. [editline]4th May 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=David29;40512728]First: Game developers owe nothing to their customers - from a basic transactional point of view. Yes, custom loyalty is important to some companies, but unless you have pre-ordered the game then they are not required to deliver the game. Even if they do, and you have pre-ordered, there is no legal requirement of it to be of a set quality - except if it was defective to the point of being unplayable. If you had preordered the game then yes, that would be unfair. If you hadn't, though, then no - it isn't unfair. It is down to you to make a judgement on whether a game is good or not. If I got a restaurant and say "I want a refund - I didn't like my food and I think it was unfair" I would be laughed at. 'Fairness' does not exist in business.[/QUOTE] Pirates are good examples of how you will catch more bees with honey than with vinegar. If you can't guarantee your customer a good quality product, then you should not be surprised when the customer is skeptic about buying anything from you.

[QUOTE=Simski;40523423]Pirates are good examples of how you will catch more bees with honey than with vinegar. If you can't guarantee your customer a good quality product, [b]then you should not be surprised when the customer is skeptic about buying anything from you.[/b][/QUOTE] I completely agree with you 100%. And I am by no means defending the methods of developers and publishers (I hate EA with a passion). However, not buying something is not the same as pirating something.

[QUOTE=David29;40524730]I completely agree with you 100%. And I am by no means defending the methods of developers and publishers (I hate EA with a passion). However, not buying something is not the same as pirating something.[/QUOTE] Thank you for listening. Still though... I don't think pirates are the kind of people that would decide to not buy a product because they're insecure about it, when the alternative of trying out the product for free is always available to them. It's a simple free option that will allow you to make the right decision on buying the product or not, sure it's illegal but in many countries there's hardly anyone enforcing laws against it. Most people don't feel guilty pirating it because they feel that they were either not going to buy it at all before trying it out, or they'll buy it if they like it. There are exceptions of course. There will always be some people who always prefer to not pay for something even though they could afford it if they wanted to. These are the bad side of pirates, the true lost sales. However, they don't make up the entirety of pirates, and there still many ways piracy can gain you sales because of customer satisfaction and free advertisement in terms of high popularity and word of mouth of your product. (I'm however still lenient on people who pirate because they genuinely can't afford things. My family was poor growing up and this was sometimes my only way of playing new games with my friends, also because the price of most creative development tools are simply not reasonable for most private users)

[QUOTE=Leestons;40489116] [IMG]http://jeremygohblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/wpid-tumblr_l9z3t8oCbJ1qzl2uzo1_500.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE] So if I break into your computer and email myself back a copy of your hard drive, that's not theft? Point being, the line gets super super fine when you throw computers into the mix.

[QUOTE=Leestons;40489116][IMG]http://jeremygohblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/wpid-tumblr_l9z3t8oCbJ1qzl2uzo1_500.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE] I don't think using image macros is a good way of putting an argument across. But also think of that macro in this way... what if my car had a personal value to me? What if I invested much time, effort, and money into personalising my car towards me? What if it was also a restored classic? I would probably not be very happy with someone taking advantage of the fruits of my labour, even if it doesn't physically disadvantage me. To me it is a threat to my identity. Would this concept not be similar for pirated software?

[QUOTE=Leestons;40489116] [editline]1st May 2013[/editline] [IMG]http://jeremygohblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/wpid-tumblr_l9z3t8oCbJ1qzl2uzo1_500.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE] nononononononononnonono nonono no nooooooooooo This actually happens, they take your number plate and use it for selling stolen cars with your name. Also selling a game (on steam or marketplaces etc.) is still copying, except the people who worked for it actually got paid.

[QUOTE=Amokov;40533738]So if I break into your computer and email myself back a copy of your hard drive, that's not theft?[/QUOTE] In most cases piracy does not involve breaching the company, unless it's a leak someone had to buy the game, crack out DRM and distribute it. You're only breaking into the software, not the developer. I guess you could say that "Piracy = Lost Sales" and use that as a way of breaching the developer indirectly but then that brings us back to the "People would buy the game if piracy didn't exist" topic, which is difficult to argue as there aren't really any statistics or means to gauge how likely someone is to buy the game if piracy wasn't an option.

[QUOTE=FunkyDarkKnight;40545301]In most cases piracy does not involve breaching the company, unless it's a leak someone had to buy the game, crack out DRM and distribute it. You're only breaking into the software, not the developer. I guess you could say that "Piracy = Lost Sales" and use that as a way of breaching the developer indirectly but then that brings us back to the "People would buy the game if piracy didn't exist" topic, which is difficult to argue as there aren't really any statistics or means to gauge how likely someone is to buy the game if piracy wasn't an option.[/QUOTE] So what about buying a magazine and photocopying all the pages and redistributing it for free?

It's completely wrong to pirate shit but I am going to be completely honest I pirate shit anyways because I am a loser teenager who doesn't give a fuck about anything and can't afford anything. It's as straight as that, however I don't pirate new things, that's too risky. I only pirate old software and music the creators probably don't give a fuck if I pirate. Their publishers might though. There is no justifying it at all though, at least I admit that. If I get banned for this shit, go fuck yourself admin because this is purely for argumentative purposes.