[QUOTE=HK_Rage;41365121]How I see the internet is that pretty much everything on the internet is free. Piracy is just a method of making things free on the internet.[/QUOTE]
Obtaining videogames, which hundreds of people have put thousands of hours and millions of dollars into, for free is not part of the "movement for free information. If nobody's going to pay for SERVICES and PRODUCTS that people put money and energy into, why the fuck should they keep making them?
[QUOTE=Talishmar;41334009]I think piracy is justified to circumvent detrimental DRM. Nobody, paying customers in particular should have to deal with that shit.[/QUOTE]
technically it's not piracy because you purchased a license
unless you start pirating other games to 'ugh i have to teach these publishers a lesson!!' which is dumb as hell
Piracy is not theft, because if you pirate it, the original is still there.
[QUOTE=hmmfery;41450180]Piracy is not theft, because if you pirate it, the original is still there.[/QUOTE]
piracy is not defined as theft, but does that justify it at all?
[QUOTE=hmmfery;41450180]Piracy is not theft, because if you pirate it, the original is still there.[/QUOTE]
That statement has likely been said a few times before in this thread.
This is a common reply to such a statement: "that's how I justify printing money."
[QUOTE=hmmfery;41450180]Piracy is not theft, because if you pirate it, the original is still there.[/QUOTE]
So, like. Does reading elude your kind or something? We've debunked this throughout the thread. Yes, Piracy is not theft in the classical sense, but things need redefining for the modern age. You are still receiving a product you are not entitled to (due to not reimbursing the producer), you are stealing their work.
I mean, $60 games are ridiculous. Especially in this economy? I wouldn't blame a man if he pirated a game, but I mean a game like Garry's Mod is kind of hard to believe.
[editline]14th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=eirexe;41179284]I pirate games, software and stuff, I finish it / use it a lot, if I really liked it I buy it (unless it's overpriced)[/QUOTE]
Agreed.
[QUOTE='[EHG-O] Isaac;41456896']I mean, $60 games are ridiculous. Especially in this economy? I wouldn't blame a man if he pirated a game, but I mean a game like Garry's Mod is kind of hard to believe.[/QUOTE]
$60 is relatively cheap. The pricing of games hasn't fluctuated much when adjusted for inflation. Hell, the $60 "overpriced" games of today provide more content and entertainment than the $120 games of the NES/ SNES era. If anything, games are cheaper today than they could be.
Well, I only pirate crappy games that are not worth to buy.
The only time I even consider pirating is if the software or game I am considering purchasing does not have a trial or demo. I am not going to put down money on a product that I cant test. And getting a refund for digital goods I dont like has ALWAYS been a pain in the ass.
I either delete the software if I dont like it or buy the full retail version. I dont have any games or software on my machine that I have kept over piracy. Either buy or delete.
[QUOTE=OutLawed Blade;41458070]The only time I even consider pirating is if the software or game I am considering purchasing does not have a trial or demo. I am not going to put down money on a product that I cant test. And getting a refund for digital goods I dont like has ALWAYS been a pain in the ass.[/QUOTE]
You don't get this chance with almost every other product on the market. Film, music, food, plays, etc. Why should you be entitled to it for games and software? Pirating "just because there isn't a demo" is still not excusable, it's more solid reasoning than "lol overpriced", but it doesn't stop you contributing to the problem.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;41458160]You don't get this chance with almost every other product on the market. Film, music, food, plays, etc. Why should you be entitled to it for games and software? Pirating "just because there isn't a demo" is still not excusable, it's more solid reasoning than "lol overpriced", but it doesn't stop you contributing to the problem.[/QUOTE]
Maybe companies should start giving that chance since they are dealing with a market that makes it so easy to duplicate their product. Instead of blaming and finger pointing they should adapt.
I also dont want to throw my money everywhere. If the software is something I like then I will fund the people who made it. I dont make a lot, so I try and get what I feel will be worth my money.
And like I said, Im not keeping the stuff I pirate, I see if its what I want and go from there.
[QUOTE=OutLawed Blade;41458239]Maybe companies should start giving that chance since they are dealing with a market that makes it so easy to duplicate their product. Instead of blaming and finger pointing they should adapt.
I also dont want to throw my money everywhere. If the software is something I like then I will fund the people who made it. I dont make a lot, so I try and get what I feel will be worth my money.
And like I said, Im not keeping the stuff I pirate, I see if its what I want and go from there.[/QUOTE]
I don't make anything. And I still don't pirate. I actually put effort in to researching software and games so I can make educated purchases without fuelling the publishers hardon for DRM.
The mere action of pirating contributes to the problem whether you keep it or not. Yeah companies should adapt their strategies to modern markets, but at the same time you should actually show companies you want more from them. When they see the numbers for piracy they can assume "oh, x people had interest in the product". That's no incentive to release demos or anything resembling a trial.
[QUOTE=hexpunK;41458271]I don't make anything. And I still don't pirate. I actually put effort in to researching software and games so I can make educated purchases without fuelling the publishers hardon for DRM.
The mere action of pirating contributes to the problem whether you keep it or not. Yeah companies should adapt their strategies to modern markets, but at the same time you should actually show companies you want more from them. When they see the numbers for piracy they can assume "oh, x people had interest in the product". That's no incentive to release demos or anything resembling a trial.[/QUOTE]
I dont trust reviews with games. No matter how many articles you read you wont get the full experience until you actually played it. I have gone by many review sites in the past and most have let me down due to their opinion making it seem greater than what I thought it was. That is not something to gamble 60 dollars with.
And how would people go about telling companies to change their ways? Unless there is some sort of community dedicated to telling companies to put out trials and demos I dont see that working. There are just too many companies out there and Im not going to stop purchasing products until they all adopt that policy.
And what problem are you referring to?
[QUOTE=OutLawed Blade;41458427]And what problem are you referring to?[/QUOTE]
User experience, DRM, publishers not being shits. Companies implement more and more restrictive DRM as a response to greater piracy numbers, but as things like the Humble Bundle have shown, even without DRM people are going to try their hardest to get whatever is being offered for free.
Pirating media just encourages companies to either increase the DRM, negatively impacting legitimate users, or to just pull out of the area/ market altogether (a few Eastern entertainment studios refuse to release here due to piracy for example).
[QUOTE=hmmfery;41457409]Well, I only pirate crappy games that are not worth to buy.[/QUOTE]
Then why bother wasting time playing them?
[QUOTE=hmmfery;41457409]Well, I only pirate crappy games that are not worth to buy.[/QUOTE]
If they're not worth buying, then why are they worth playing? If they're fun enough for you to spend time torrenting and playing, surely they're worth something.
[IMG]http://oi41.tinypic.com/690vuh.jpg[/IMG]
Piracy cannot be justified, it seems silly the amount of people I see trying to convince themselves that pirating is okay because of 'X' reason.
However, there's no reason why people can't accept that it's not justifiable and continue to do it anyway, as much as we'd like to think we're all lovely human beings doing the right thing, it's perfectly natural that when a guy (especially a younger guy without much spare cash) has the choice of paying full price for every game, or downloading every game for free with very little chance of negative repercussions, they will choose the latter.
It's all well and good playing the 'it's to avoid bad DRM' or 'it's just to try before buying' card, but at the end of the day if pirating a game had just a high a chance of getting caught as say, walking into a shop, picking up said game and walking out again (I know the discs are stored behind the counters now but just as an example) then I'm pretty sure the same people wouldn't be pirating still.
I'm not saying 'bad DRM' and 'try before buying' aren't real reasons and that people are lying or anything, but people seem to try and hide the fact that the main reason people pirate games is because it's free, and naturally humans like getting free things when there aren't really any consequences.
Whilst I would like to see piracy gone so developers can get the full rewards for their work, and to better fuel the industry overall, I don't think the answer to getting rid of it lies purely in releasing demos, and using non-restrictive DRM since that doesn't change the fact that pirating a game is free, and people want things for free. They are all minor solutions to a much bigger problem.
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I bought it.
Pirates don't care if the company they pirate from thinks what they're doing is wrong, because most likely the pirates feel that the company has failed to convince that their product is worth the price they've put on it. Pirates especially do not care what some random person in a debate forum thinks is morally wrong, because opinions are like assholes.
If you want people to not pirate, then make your product and service worth paying for.
The case with pirates is that you'll catch more bees with honey than with vinegar, and that pissing customers off is not a good way to build company trust.
[editline]17th July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=milkandcooki;41467057]If they're not worth buying, then why are they worth playing? If they're fun enough for you to spend time torrenting and playing, surely they're worth something.[/QUOTE]
That's your opinion. Sadly, it only dictates your feelings and actions, and not the feelings and actions of every pirate. Not meaning to sound like an ass, but people are rarely convinced or even interested by other peoples moral views, and you are unlikely to guilt trip a pirate with morals that is not his own.
[QUOTE=Simski;41492115]Pirates don't care if the company they pirate from thinks what they're doing is wrong, because most likely the pirates feel that the company has failed to convince that their product is worth the price they've put on it. Pirates especially do not care what some random person in a debate forum thinks is morally wrong, because opinions are like assholes.
If you want people to not pirate, then make your product and service worth paying for.
The case with pirates is that you'll catch more bees with honey than with vinegar, and that pissing customers off is not a good way to build company trust.
[editline]17th July 2013[/editline]
That's your opinion. Sadly, it only dictates your feelings and actions, and not the feelings and actions of every pirate. Not meaning to sound like an ass, but people are rarely convinced or even interested by other peoples moral views, and you are unlikely to guilt trip a pirate with morals that is not his own.[/QUOTE]
You do realise we are debating here, right? We're not here to eradicate piracy through some sort of moral crusade. We are simply debating the morality behind it - specifically (if we follow the title) if it is acceptable to pirate a game to try it. Saying "that's your opinion" sounds rather childish to me and is rather counter-productive to the whole idea of having a debate - where people's differing opinions are pitted against each other to see which stands up the best.
In other words - don't effectively try to declare the debate as over because people have differing views.
I use pirate games a lot, but this was because I didn't have any access to a credit card that I was allowed to freely use to purchase games on Steam. But after the introduction of Steam Wallet and vouchers for that in Australia, I've stopped pirating games and started buying them (especially with the summer sale atm). But software on the other hand, things like Sony Vegas and Photoshop are just way too expensive for me to even think of investing that kind of money in, so those software I usually pirate.
[QUOTE=David29;41492346]You do realise we are debating here, right? We're not here to eradicate piracy through some sort of moral crusade. We are simply debating the morality behind it - specifically (if we follow the title) if it is acceptable to pirate a game to try it. Saying "that's your opinion" sounds rather childish to me and is rather counter-productive to the whole idea of having a debate - where people's differing opinions are pitted against each other to see which stands up the best.
In other words - don't effectively try to declare the debate as over because people have differing views.[/QUOTE]
I'm saying that in a constructive sense, it doesn't matter what's right or what's wrong. What matters is why people pirate, not why they should not. People don't care about why people think they should not pirate, and thus any means of convincing people why they should not pirate is moot. What is important is why people choose to pirate rather than to buy, because that's the source of the real problem.
[editline]17th July 2013[/editline]
In other words - I'm not really declaring the debate over, I'm declaring the moral arguments against piracy unimportant and irrelevant.
[editline]17th July 2013[/editline]
I mean sure go on if you must... but honestly it seems all we're doing right now is blurting out opinions and neither side is getting through to the other.
It's pointless, and not as constructive as a discussing why piracy exists and what can be done to prevent it.
[QUOTE=Simski;41492618]I'm saying that in a constructive sense, it doesn't matter what's right or what's wrong. What matters is why people pirate, not why they should not. People don't care about why people think they should not pirate, and thus any means of convincing people why they should not pirate is moot. What is important is why people choose to pirate rather than to buy, because that's the source of the real problem.
[editline]17th July 2013[/editline]
In other words - I'm not really declaring the debate over, I'm declaring the moral arguments against piracy unimportant and irrelevant.
[editline]17th July 2013[/editline]
I mean sure go on if you must... but honestly it seems all we're doing right now is blurting out opinions and neither side is getting through to the other.
It's pointless, and not as constructive as a discussing why piracy exists and what can be done to prevent it.[/QUOTE]
Oooor if you want another viewpoint, maybe pirates pirate because its free and "why not"?
Unless you're talking about online video games, any service that's "worth paying for" can be taken by a pirate and distributed for free with relatively minimal effort
In other words, any service that's good to buy is even greater when its free, and when its so very easy to do, the choice is very clear (unless, of course, you look at it from a moral perspective. But if thats not what you want to do then w.e)
And yeah, obviously this entire thread is going to be opinions and anecdotes because nobody here has enough sizable data to make such a massive statement. Granted some people in the industry do but nobody here believes them anyway so lol
[QUOTE=Simski;41492618]People don't care about why people think they should not pirate, and thus any means of convincing people why they should not pirate is moot.[/QUOTE]
Based on some of the arguments I have seen put forward in this thread, I beg to differ.
[QUOTE=Simski;41492618]What is important is why people choose to pirate rather than to buy, because that's the source of the real problem.[/QUOTE]
I would have thought that was amazingly simple. Mainly it is because free.
[QUOTE=Simski;41492618]In other words - I'm not really declaring the debate over, I'm declaring the moral arguments against piracy unimportant and irrelevant.[/QUOTE]
Why? A number of arguments have been put forward which show that piracy is detrimental to the gaming industry and gamers as a whole - yet you are insisting that morality doesn't come into it? It's like arguing that slavery is all fine and dandy because it's beneficial to me and that the fact that it is morally wrong is irrelevant because it's just 'your opinion'.
[QUOTE=Simski;41492618]I mean sure go on if you must... but honestly it seems all we're doing right now is blurting out opinions and neither side is getting through to the other.[/QUOTE]
Welcome to the world of debating.
[QUOTE=Simski;41492618]It's pointless, and not as constructive as a discussing why piracy exists and what can be done to prevent it.[/QUOTE]
Fine? No one is forcing you to debate this 'pointless' issue. You're the one coming here and telling everyone that they are wasting their time for discussing the ethics and morality of piracy - even though that has more to do with the original debate topic than what you are proposing.
The reason I think moral arguments are useless are because even if you're right, pirates don't care. You're not going to stop pirates with morals, at best you might stop someone who doesn't pirate to start pirating. Pirates already know you're right by law, and they don't care. Pirates don't feel very guilty about their actions, because their actions don't have as damaging effects as more serious crimes, and at times they're doing it against what they'd think of as an asshole victim.
The pirates who pirate only because it's free, well I admit they are a lost cause. However they do not constitute every pirate, and there's plenty of people who pirate due to being unsatisfied with the product, the service, or the price.
Also... saying that "if you don't want to buy something, don't pirate it", to most people only sound like "if you don't think you'll like something, don't try it".
[QUOTE=Simski;41502936]The reason I think moral arguments are useless are because even if you're right, pirates don't care. You're not going to stop pirates with morals, at best you might stop someone who doesn't pirate to start pirating. Pirates already know you're right by law, and they don't care. Pirates don't feel very guilty about their actions, because their actions don't have as damaging effects as more serious crimes, and at times they're doing it against what they'd think of as an asshole victim.
The pirates who pirate only because it's free, well I admit they are a lost cause. However they do not constitute every pirate, and there's plenty of people who pirate due to being unsatisfied with the product, the service, or the price.[/QUOTE]
Well that's all irrelevant - because that's just your opinion (sound familiar?).
Also, you seem to have a very in-depth knowledge of what people who pirate games feel. Please, tell me how you managed to gather all the evidence which led you to the definitive conclusion that pirates have no moral compass and do not let right or wrong influence their decisions. Because based on some of the arguments I have seen, some pirates genuinely believe what they are doing is a-ok.
[QUOTE=Simski;41502936]Also... saying that "if you don't want to buy something, don't pirate it", to most people only sound like "if you don't think you'll like something, don't try it".[/QUOTE]
No, because there is a distinct difference - chiefly that piracy is illegal and detrimental to gamers and the game industry alike, whereas to 'try' something is very context sensitive. Beyond that, there's also an element of common sense - why would you try something if you don't think you would like it? Thus I also ask the question: why pirate it if you wouldn't buy it?
I personally avoid doing such things, though it's sad that piracy is the closest thing to a proper demo.
Here's how I see it.
If you like the game, buy it. It's a way of thanking the developers and coders for their time put into the game. However, if you don't know if you like the game or not, sure, pirate it.
ONLY for a feel of the game. If you feel like you're going to be playing this game, hop on and spend the money as a thank you to the developers. As a developer myself, I'd think this is how all game developers would treat this topic.
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