Piracy? or Try before you buy? - General

[QUOTE=Im Crimson;36767389]It might look like a question of morals but that isn't necessarily the case; supporting a developer can be justified for selfish reasons. For example, you could say I bought Portal 2 because I liked the game because contributing towards making the game a commercial success will increase the chances of another great game like it being made by the same developers, which is beneficial for me personally as I will get another great game to play. The commercial success of Portal 2, which I helped contribute towards, also advances Valve's position in the global market which results in the other developers (that I by extent think can not satisfy me as well as Valve can) declining.[/QUOTE] That sounds exactly like a moral justification to me, none of that actually happens the only thing that happens is that you lose $60 with which you could have fed yourself for three weeks. [editline]14th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=dgg;36767434] Also, what? The creators deserving your money IS THE BIGGEST REASON TO BUY SOMETHING[/QUOTE] It really isn't.

[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;36768751]That sounds exactly like a moral justification to me, none of that actually happens the only thing that happens is that you lose $60 with which you could have fed yourself for three weeks. [/QUOTE] What do you mean "none of that happens"? If I pay Valve 50 bucks that will have the direct and absolute consequence of Valve being $50 richer. It's not a moral-driven action, just a want for further personal enjoyment. A moral justification would be "I was entertained by this game so I'm obliged to pay the devs for the pleasure had", this is "I want to see the devs more of this, so I'll invest in them to make more of this thing I personally enjoy". The only way that DOESN'T work out is if you pretend developing games doesn't cost money, or whatever.

[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;36768751]It really isn't.[/QUOTE] It really is. How the flying fuck can you say it isn't? The developers are the ones that made the game, they had the idea, they made the mechanics, art, everything. The developers is the sole reason the game exist and why it's fun. By buying the game you support the developers and tell them "hey this was a good game, make more".

I'm not going to continue arguing that point you think your entertainment has some sort of monetary value attached to it and I can't convince you otherwise.

[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;36767201]I am saying just pirate it, because I think entertainment has no real value[/QUOTE] This is a fucking awful justification for piracy. If you go by this logic, then nothing on this earth has an real value so you might as well go take all of that as well! Because hey! If it has no value to me then it must have none to every other person on the planet! Entertainment has a value, it provides you something, a service, an item, something consumable for you to experience emotions. Sure it isn't something you need to sustain yourself, but it's a big help for your mental health. It has a value, assigned to it by the people who provide the entertainment, the developers who create it, the publishers who sell it. It has this value as they need something to reimburse them for the time spent working on it, and to fund future endeavours. Seriously, you just seem like an awful human being though. Your justification for that is awful, and the fact you can't see it is awful is pretty, well, awful.

That's wonderful the reality is they make huge profits and will continue to do so without your "support" and call me whatever you want but it makes sense to me to spend the money on something of greater importance than an intangible expression of ideas to keep yourself amused for a few hours.

[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;36771058]That's wonderful the reality is they make huge profits and will continue to do so without your "support" and call me whatever you want but it makes sense to me to spend the money on something of greater importance than an intangible expression of ideas to keep yourself amused for a few hours.[/QUOTE] You could just like, I dunno, not buy it then? It isn't something you are entitled to like food, water and shelter are, so if you don't think it's worth buying, just don't get it. It's not going to deprive you of something as clearly you don't give a shit about whatever you are taking anyway.

But that's what I already do? I don't buy it.

[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;36771265]But that's what I already do? I don't buy it.[/QUOTE] I also said "don't get it". Stop trying to be clever.

[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;36770944]I'm not going to continue arguing that point you think your entertainment has some sort of monetary value attached to it and I can't convince you otherwise.[/QUOTE] Yes, I think entertainment is worth money because people had to work for years to get that piece of entertainment made and needs money to keep making it. Everything in this world costs money to make and I am happy to support the hard workers that makes good products.

[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;36771058]That's wonderful the reality is they make huge profits and will continue to do so without your "support".[/QUOTE] Well they surely wouldn't if everyone thought like you, if you really consider entertainment to be unworthy of your money. It's an interesting standpoint you have and with that in mind I'd agree there's no point in trying to convince one another. I'd be interested in hearing where you do actually draw the line under what you believe has monetary value but if I had to take a guess I'd wager you don't really have that worked out.

[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;36771058]That's wonderful the reality is they make huge profits and will continue to do so without your "support" [/QUOTE] Explains why so many companies have crashed and burned and companies like THQ has extreme economical problems.

[QUOTE=dgg;36771765]Explains why so many companies have crashed and burned and companies like THQ has extreme economical problems.[/QUOTE] You know you're absolutely right it has nothing to do with the money they spent publishing and advertising bad games that don't sell. [editline]14th July 2012[/editline] [QUOTE=hexpunK;36771339]I also said "don't get it". Stop trying to be clever.[/QUOTE] Well I might as well if you're going to ask questions with really obvious answers, why wouldn't I get it? It's free entertainment.

Personally I don't feel that piracy is really kosher in my Torah, though you often need to get an impression of the game before you buy; something that gameplay videos don't always do, even though sometimes vids are enough for impressions. Nonetheless, it helps to get some hands-on touchy-feely experience with the game before you get it. Back in the old days, we had demos, which were small bits of the game that we could play through as a taster of the main game; if done well they could draw you in and make you more sure about whether or not to buy the game. However, there was also another similar method; shareware. The most prominent example of shareware I can think of is the original Doom; the first episode, "Knee-Deep In The Dead", was free to download, and if they wanted to continue their Doom adventure, gamers could get buy the second and third episodes, "Shores of Hell" and "Inferno". This system seems to work well with episodic games, since they were usually in multiple pieces, allowing gamers to play the first few bits of the game, then buy the rest of the game if they liked it. If Telltale did it so that Sam & Max S1E1 was free, rather than S1E4, this system would've worked rather well, though instead they chose a bad place for free-players to start, right in the middle of the storyline; it's usually a good thing to make the first episode free, so potential customers start at the beginning, rather than get caught up in medias res and be confused. Another shareware-ish kind of example which affected me was Minecraft; I remember spending a fair few hours with the free creative version on the site, and enjoyed my time, so I was more willing to buy the full version when I heard it was entering Beta. Nowadays I don't play Minecraft as much anymore, but in those earlier years I did quite enjoy it; I still sometimes play it when the mood takes me, but not as much as I used to. All in all, I think we should bring back demos and shareware as an industry standard; giving people a free sample of the game can make them more likely to buy it if the game is up their alley. Binding of Isaac I think has a free Flash version on newgrounds, and BioWare did a Mass Effect 3 Demo with both singleplayer AND multiplayer. Sure the singleplayer part didn't simulate the RPG aspects too much; I would have liked at least to have been on the Normandy and had a jolly jaunt on Mars in addition to the Vancouver intro level and the Sur'Kesh mission with Eve, but the multiplayer demo succeeded in delivering an accurate and substantial simulation of the full multiplayer experience. To round up this current tirade, I believe that to ensure people don't pirate your games as much, send out demos and substantial shareware slices to give an accurate and filling simulation of how the game will play, making them more likely to buy the rest. Even though there'll still be pirates, there probably won't be as many, PLUS with demos and the like giving an informative impression of the game, gamers may be less likely to buy the game, dislike it, and trade it in at GameStop. Also, one last thought; would it be kosher for playing a demo/shareware version of a game to grant the player special stuff in the main game? You'd be rewarded for checking it out beforehand, and it's essentially free stuff that anyone can get, so it doesn't seem too shady; it worked for Amalur and ME3, didn't it? [B]As always, voice how you feel about this; feedback is a good thing, especially when constructive.[/B]

[QUOTE=Im Crimson;36771618]Well they surely wouldn't if everyone thought like you[/QUOTE] This is the best part, they don't.

[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;36771994]This is the best part, they don't.[/QUOTE] Indeed, it would be utterly unsustainable. The best part about that is; It shows your philosophy is objectively and empirically bad and wrong. Badong. So for the sake of all entertainment we can only hope the rest of the world will continue to disagree with you. And occasionally fork out some dosh for a previously pirated game.

[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;36771935]You know you're absolutely right it has nothing to do with the money they spent publishing and advertising bad games that don't sell.[/QUOTE] You wouldn't know if it sells or not before the game is released. The publishers have to fork out a shitload of money to get noticed instead of being drowned in the crowd.

[QUOTE=Im Crimson;36772622]Indeed, it would be utterly unsustainable. The best part about that is; It shows your philosophy is objectively and empirically bad and wrong. Badong. So for the sake of all entertainment we can only hope the rest of the world will continue to disagree with you. And occasionally fork out some dosh for a previously pirated game.[/QUOTE] More people buy than pirate so my philosophy is wrong ok

I believe that demos should be previous versions of the game; such as, say, the old Zomboid tech demo they've released for free, or build 22/23 of Cortex Command. They both are irrelevant versions of the games or are soon to be in a few updates. So if Cc released build 22/23 after the next few updates, like 34 when they get to it, I believe that they should both keep the 6 minute trial, but to counteract and show a solid version of the game for free aswell they could persuade more of the masses to buy it/donate. Sorry for my confusing structure and phrasings.

[QUOTE=POLOPOZOZO;36771058]That's wonderful the reality is they make huge profits and will continue to do so without your "support" and call me whatever you want but it makes sense to me to spend the money on something of greater importance than an intangible expression of ideas to keep yourself amused for a few hours.[/QUOTE] You're justifying it right now. It seems people have an extremely hard time admitting that they are stealing, even when they are patronizing others for doing the same.

[QUOTE=King Tiger;36775670]You're justifying it right now. It seems people have an extremely hard time admitting that they are stealing, even when they are patronizing others for doing the same.[/QUOTE] Whoa whoa whoa, back the fuck down there buddy. Go read up his other posts. That is the biggest and most wrong statement you could ever make. I also believe you completely and utterly managed to misunderstand the whole quote. He said they would keep making games even if you don't buy them and pirate them instead. He said he doesn't think entertainment is worth money and as such he doesn't buy games.

2 years ago, when Minecraft was first getting popular, I pirated it for a couple of weeks. I then bought it for full price. I think it's fine, as long as you buy said item.

[QUOTE=PuppetSeagull;36778150]2 years ago, when Minecraft was first getting popular, I pirated it for a couple of weeks. I then bought it for full price. I think it's fine, as long as you buy said item.[/QUOTE] I think it's fine even if you don't. Because there is no guarantee you will buy it and you did pirate it. It's silly to say it's fine if you buy it but if you don't then it isn't. Why would you pirate it in the first place if you're going to force yourself to buy it no matter what because otherwise you think it's wrong?

I much prefer having my games on Steam, so if I pirate a game to try it and it's good, I'll almost always buy it on Steam when it's on sale.

[QUOTE=dgg;36778093]Whoa whoa whoa, back the fuck down there buddy. Go read up his other posts. That is the biggest and most wrong statement you could ever make. I also believe you completely and utterly managed to misunderstand the whole quote. He said they would keep making games even if you don't buy them and pirate them instead. He said he doesn't think entertainment is worth money and as such he doesn't buy games.[/QUOTE] I understand exactly what he said. Before that quote though, he said h found it funny that people tried to distinguish between "types of pirates" and try to justify themselves. He then went on to give an explanation of why his pirating was OK. He's a hypocrite.

First off, I don't think piracy is stealing in the traditional sense. It's a copy of information that makes the company lose no money whatsoever. They might lose money in "potential sales", but that's assuming that everybody who pirates is going to buy the game if the option to pirate wasn't there, which I think is a bit silly to say. Some people pirate because of a lack of money (not a loss), some people pirate because of a lack of demo (some may purchase later, some don't. Possibly a "potential loss" depending on how you look at it. If there was no way to pirate it, doesn't assume that they would have bought it.), and some people pirate because it's easier to (a loss on the dev's part). The thing is, I don't pirate. I think it's wrong. I don't feel obligated to play a game that a developer put money and work into, and I want to go into the industry and am putting work into achieving that end, so piracy just feels off. The thing is, you know something's wrong when people are pirating your game because the service can be insane. Instead of harming the customer, driving them to piracy, people need to begin to innovate. Obtaining a movie wasn't a very easy method. People had to go down to the movie store, see if they had a movie that they wanted in stock, purchase it, bring it home, watch it, and return it before their rental expired. Netflix had an idea. Let's use the internet to stream people any movie they want, any time, for a subscription price. This ensures that the movie will work and you won't be caught getting any icky viruses. Netflix is currently making tons of money, and I would say that they helped put a stop to pirating. I don't really have any evidence for that besides anecdotal ones, but let me ask you this, how many times have you attempted to watch a movie/show online legally and found no legal ways to do so (the Game of Thrones comes to mind), and there was an illegal solution? This is the same thing with gaming. People are finding it's much easier to pirate a game than have to put up with shoddy DRM, and as such are resorting to illegal means. If a developer would just provide a better service for the customer than the pirates can, they would be losing by pirating instead of getting the same or better product/experience.

[QUOTE=Zally13;36780737]First off, I don't think piracy is stealing in the traditional sense. It's a copy of information that makes the company lose no money whatsoever. They might lose money in "potential sales", but that's assuming that everybody who pirates is going to buy the game if the option to pirate wasn't there, which I think is a bit silly to say. Some people pirate because of a lack of money (not a loss), some people pirate because of a lack of demo (some may purchase later, some don't. Possibly a "potential loss" depending on how you look at it. If there was no way to pirate it, doesn't assume that they would have bought it.), and some people pirate because it's easier to (a loss on the dev's part). The thing is, I don't pirate. I think it's wrong. I don't feel obligated to play a game that a developer put money and work into, and I want to go into the industry and am putting work into achieving that end, so piracy just feels off. The thing is, you know something's wrong when people are pirating your game because the service can be insane. Instead of harming the customer, driving them to piracy, people need to begin to innovate. Obtaining a movie wasn't a very easy method. People had to go down to the movie store, see if they had a movie that they wanted in stock, purchase it, bring it home, watch it, and return it before their rental expired. Netflix had an idea. Let's use the internet to stream people any movie they want, any time, for a subscription price. This ensures that the movie will work and you won't be caught getting any icky viruses. Netflix is currently making tons of money, and I would say that they helped put a stop to pirating. I don't really have any evidence for that besides anecdotal ones, but let me ask you this, how many times have you attempted to watch a movie/show online legally and found no legal ways to do so (the Game of Thrones comes to mind), and there was an illegal solution? This is the same thing with gaming. People are finding it's much easier to pirate a game than have to put up with shoddy DRM, and as such are resorting to illegal means. If a developer would just provide a better service for the customer than the pirates can, they would be losing by pirating instead of getting the same or better product/experience.[/QUOTE] Pirating is stealing. Stealing is taking something you don't own. Whether that thing is an object or a copy of something, you still are taking something that is not yours. Also, can you give some examples of this "shoddy DRM" you mentioned? And explain how developers need to "provide a better service"?

[QUOTE=King Tiger;36780828]Pirating is stealing. Stealing is taking something you don't own. Whether that thing is an object or a copy of something, you still are taking something that is not yours. Also, can you give some examples of this "shoddy DRM" you mentioned? And explain how developers need to "provide a better service"?[/QUOTE] I said in the traditional sense. When you're taking somebody from somebody, they're losing something. With a software copy, they don't lose anything except "potential sales", which I went over. Shoddy DRM? Sure. "Ubisoft's servers failed around 8 am GMT yesterday and were reportedly down for more than ten hours, during which time owners of Silent Hunter 5 and Assassin's Creed 2, released in Europe last week, were unable to access their games"[url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/98935-Ubisoft-Blames-DRM-Outage-on-Server-Attack]*[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassin's_Creed_II#DRM-related_criticism[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Hunter_5#Server_downtime[/url] Developers need to provide a better service by giving people a reason to buy their game instead of pirate it. Steam does it well, as you get achievements, community support, the ability to download at any time (I can't count the number of times I've lost CD Keys or scratched the CDs too much), and various other reasons to use Steam instead of pirate.

[QUOTE=Zally13;36780895]I said in the traditional sense. When you're taking somebody from somebody, they're losing something. With a software copy, they don't lose anything except "potential sales", which I went over.[/quote] You sound like a smart person. You should know that gaming companies barely lose any money in the actual manufacture of their games. Especially with online purchases, their entire revenue is based off of "potential sales". [quote]Shoddy DRM? Sure. "Ubisoft's servers failed around 8 am GMT yesterday and were reportedly down for more than ten hours, during which time owners of Silent Hunter 5 and Assassin's Creed 2, released in Europe last week, were unable to access their games"[url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/98935-Ubisoft-Blames-DRM-Outage-on-Server-Attack]*[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassin's_Creed_II#DRM-related_criticism[/url] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silent_Hunter_5#Server_downtime[/url] Developers need to provide a better service by giving people a reason to buy their game instead of pirate it. Steam does it well, as you get achievements, community support, the ability to download at any time (I can't count the number of times I've lost CD Keys or scratched the CDs too much), and various other reasons to use Steam instead of pirate.[/QUOTE] OK, so I count one instance of a bad DRM service. This isn't the epidemic which pirates claim to be infecting the gaming industry. What I was asking for was some type of proof that there is huge, widespread "shoddy DRM" services which warrants piracy on almost every game. I know ab out Ubisoft's shitty service. But that's just Ubisoft. Also, you are unable to play a game on Steam, even offline, unless you have activated it while online first. So if you lose access to your internet connection before activation, you're unable to play the game. That sounds like "shoddy DRM" to me.

[QUOTE=King Tiger;36781027] OK, so I count one instance of a bad DRM service. This isn't the epidemic which pirates claim to be infecting the gaming industry. [/QUOTE] Oh there's no shortage of those, got a few more here: [B]Tages [/B]- Obscure DRM which I encountered after buying STALKER: Clear Sky. Online activation was required to play, and the Tages activation servers were down for 48 hours. When it failed to activate it just handed me a generic error meaning I had to contact Steam support to find out why I couldn't play my game. It also has an activation limit, meaning I can only install it a few times before I need to buy a new copy. [B]Games for Windows Live[/B] - DRM client that, like Steam, manages your games and acts like a store. It launches the game for you, handles updates and work through an in-game overlay. It's cumbersome to run and prone to deliver confusing error messages, often locking you out of your games thanks to an update that won't install or because it doesn't like your router. You're forced to constantly download big client updates in order to log in, and you need to stay logged in in order to save your singleplayer progress, even. [B]SecuROM[/B] - DRM software that imposes activation limits. There has been reports of lots of software- and hardware incompatibility that requires work-arounds, and the program even goes as far in violating your personal integrity as stopping you from launching the game if it detect you have certain software installed that could potentially be used in copyright infringement (such as drive emulation tools). This whole approach of piracy prevention reeks of anti-consumerism and it's not hard to imagine why some people just don't want to deal with this.