[QUOTE=Freeze;47625332]I doubt they'd fuck with work in Westminster - they clearly want what's best for all countries, not just Scotland (even if Scotland is their main priority).[/QUOTE]
The SNP's end game is independence, it might not be what they are peddling right now but it is what they are all about and are merely biding their time. That's why no one outside Scotland wants them in any form of power over the UK. Get in, mess it up, call for a referendum ASAP and get out leaving the rest of the UK in a mess.
Now it's highly unlikely that's how it'd go down but people outside Scotland don't trust the SNP for fears along that spectrum, so it's not in the interest of any UK party to align with them in anyway because they'll just lose votes.
There seems to be a lot of labour support here, so as somebody who thinks a labour government would be a disaster, let me explain my main reason for this. I would be interested in hearing what you think on this.
To my knowledge, three of Labour's major points are as follows -
- Up the minimum wage
- End zero hour contracts
- Up corporation tax
All of this sounds great for the working man right? Except I think it will screw over a lot of people. I know in my area especially there are a huge number of small businesses and startups. You are hitting them from 3 sides with each one of the above listed policies.
Let's take a small bar / bakery / cafe as an example. You are paying minimum wage to a reasonable number of employees, some of which are on zero hour contracts - because you only need them when you need them and you are just getting off the ground so you can't afford to give them guaranteed hours. Maybe in a few years you'll grow and create more jobs, with more hours and more security.
Now, Labour get in. You now have to pay each employee more. You now have to give them guaranteed hours. Oh, and you now have to pay additional corporation tax.
What do you do? You let people go. You cannot afford to keep them.
So yeah, a higher wage is nice for the working man. Guaranteed hours are nice too. But it's not just smaller businesses who will cut people off to reduce costs. Costs will go up for bigger businesses too and I predict a horrible wave of redundancies across the country.
And don't even get me started on the change to corporation tax screwing over freelance / contract professionals...
I really think a Labour government would be a disaster. I know a lot of people dislike conservatives, but I believe they are the best shot our economy has - for businesses and the working man. If the businesses get fucked, the working man gets fucked.
Ashcroft poll today has Nick Clegg as losing his seat :v:
[QUOTE=Drakehawke;47625524]Ashcroft poll today has Nick Clegg as losing his seat :v:[/QUOTE]
and Farage losing South Thanet... :v:
As someone in England the SNP scare the shit out of me to be honest, they haven't ruled out another Independence referendum in the near future and I really think that they could potentially threaten the stability of the UK as a whole in order to get it.
[QUOTE=Genericenemy;47626434]As someone in England the SNP scare the shit out of me to be honest, they haven't ruled out another Independence referendum in the near future and I really think that they could potentially threaten the stability of the UK as a whole in order to get it.[/QUOTE]
A future referendum may well be on the table but they're not going to fuck over the UK to get there. Sure they're a progressive party so things are gonna change but that's not necessarily a bad thing, they're not here to shit up the UK to benefit Scotland.
[editline]29th April 2015[/editline]
Not finished watching so don't have anything to say, but I thought I'd share this.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDZm9_uKtyo[/media]
[QUOTE=Wickerman123;47627073]A future referendum may well be on the table but they're not going to fuck over the UK to get there. Sure they're a progressive party so things are gonna change but that's not necessarily a bad thing, they're not here to shit up the UK to benefit Scotland.[/QUOTE]
I don't believe that at all. The way SNP were talking about independence around the referendum was absolutely ridiculous. Everything they said lead me to believe that they felt entitled to a disproportionately large slice of the pie in separation.
Regardless of whether that's true though, we, along with a lot of Europe, aren't in a great financial position right now. We are doing better than many but that doesn't mean we are doing well. The actual effort and funds required to successfully split a country are astronomical, and we have a lot of urgent issues that need to be dealt with without the colossal overhead of splitting hundreds of physical and digital systems.
Here's how I see it -
SNP want independence, that is obvious. Independence will fuck over the UK. Until they have obtained independence, they'll be doing what they can to get the absolute best deal for Scotland, even if that's disproportionate - again, not good for the rest of the UK.
So the Sun is officially backing the Conservatives:
[IMG_thumb]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CDyYcbmUsAA72a_.png[/IMG_thumb]
Big Surprise right?
But the Scottish Sun is backing the SNP:
[IMG_thumb]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CDyX_XRUEAIXyFl.png[/IMG_thumb]
Either Murdoch really hates Labour or he really hates the Union, or both.
[QUOTE=The mouse;47627299]
Either Murdoch really hates Labour[/QUOTE]
He will do everything he can to prevent a Labour Government. Funny covers, though:
"STOP SNP!"
"VOTE SNP!"
[QUOTE]Latest YouGov poll (28 - 29 Apr):
CON - 35% (+1)
LAB - 34% (-1)
UKIP - 12% (-)
LDEM - 9% (-)
GRN - 4% (-)[/QUOTE]
This stalemate s rather boring. The SNP/Scotland debate is the most interesting thing about this election.
To be honest if I walked past the first one and didn't read beyond the headline I'd think they were calling Cameron a baby.
[QUOTE=Drakehawke;47625524]Ashcroft poll today has Nick Clegg as losing his seat :v:[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=The mouse;47625720]and Farage losing South Thanet... :v:[/QUOTE]
Let's not get tabloidy, both polls were extremely close so the results are really too close to call
[img]http://i.imgur.com/AByguxi.png[/img]
So STupid if UKIP wins.... the UK is really going down the shitter...
Either way we are going down the shitter. That's pretty much guaranteed regardless of the result.
[QUOTE=Wickerman123;47629376]Either way we are going down the shitter. That's pretty much guaranteed regardless of the result.[/QUOTE]
Just like every election ever in every country then
[QUOTE=smurfy;47629520]Just like every election ever in every country then[/QUOTE]
[I]Tories... Labour.... Lib Dems.... they're all just spokes on a wheel. This one's on top, then that one's on top, and on and on it spins....[/I]
If I could vote it'd be for UKIP but I'm [I]just[/I] too young. In my opinion (prepared for dumbs) their party isn't racist, but contains racist people. All parties have them but in UKIP the proportion is higher. I agree on almost all of their policies.
I'd like to prefix this post by saying I don't support UKIP and won't be voting UKIP.
As much as people love to demonise Farage, a lot of what he says is actually quite reasonable and I haven't ever seen him say anything racist, nor do I believe him to be so.
It is that demonisation of Farage and UKIP which has basically allowed their rise in popularity - because nobody really actually addresses what Farage says.
Imagine a typical British guy, Dave. Dave is watching Farage speak on TV, and he comes out with something which makes Dave think "hmm actually that sounds about right" and then the person he's saying it to goes on some self-righteous rant of which the gist is "you obviously hate foreigners". Dave listens to what they've said to Farage and thinks "but that doesn't address what he said at all...".
Dave is talking to his friends the next day and they end up talking about politics. UKIP is mentioned dismissively, the word "racist" is thrown in there. Dave doesn't understand what's racist about UKIP, but nothing in this conversation has changed his opinion of what he's heard Farage saying.
When Dave goes online later that day, he sees discussions on politics which echo the sentiment of his friends. UKIP is discussed off hand, with no real substance to rival his support of what he's heard Farage say.
On election day, Dave goes to the polls. He's never been presented with a reasonable argument as to why UKIP is a bad choice. He votes UKIP.
So I guess my message is this - To everybody who has just dismissively labelled UKIP / Farage as racist, xenophobic, anti-foreigner, stupid, or whatever - You have helped UKIP's rise in popularity.
I do think that Farage/UKIP in general are racist but I also agree that sometimes people dismiss their points because of that, even if they had nothing to do that.
I've always said that it's a shame Farage stands for horrible policies because he's a good leader.
[IMG]http://i.gyazo.com/741f5f1b33846202052839db8460c6c3.png[/IMG]
So have the polls finally broken toward the Conservatives because they're certainly starting to show some consistency on 35%?
I'd like to prefix this post by saying I support UKIP, am a member of UKIP and will be voting UKIP. I'm not scared to say this.
UKIP is not racist. Wanting to tighten our borders is not racist. Thinking Nigel/UKIP is racist because their main policies are harsh on immigration OR because a few of their candidates said something racist makes you pretty ignorant, try looking up 'tory candidate racism' or 'labour candidate racism' and you'll be surprised!
Have any of you actually read their manifesto? If you haven't, you can't say anything negative about the party itself because you don't know [I]shit[/I] about what they want to do.
[QUOTE=The mouse;47631360][IMG]http://i.gyazo.com/741f5f1b33846202052839db8460c6c3.png[/IMG]
So have the polls finally broken toward the Conservatives because they're certainly starting to show some consistency on 35%?[/QUOTE]
Well within the margin of error, as Smurfy pointed out you can't really rely on them too much, all it really means is it's too close to call.
BBC Daily Politics did an interesting piece on how similar this election was to the 1992 election. Most opinion polls had Labour 1-2% ahead and then the Conservatives actually won a majority, they got it completely wrong.
There's a phenomena called "shy tories" where basically Conservative voters tend to be shy about it (traditionally a 'selfish' vote if you pay tax because it means you'll get tax cuts at the expense of those who rely on public services/welfare much more). AFAIK opinion polls don't take this into account in their weighting.
In this election they suspect something similar may be happening in Scotland with "shy unionists". Because the whole unionist/nationalist thing is so divisive and the unionists are doing well, people are shy about saying they wont vote SNP.
Also worth pointing out that whilst polling companies have got really good at doing it, they're still scaling up the views of 1000 people to the views of 50,000,000...
[QUOTE=Lord Xenoyia;47632108]I'd like to prefix this post by saying I support UKIP, am a member of UKIP and will be voting UKIP. I'm not scared to say this.
UKIP is not racist. Wanting to tighten our borders is not racist. Thinking Nigel/UKIP is racist because their main policies are harsh on immigration OR because a few of their candidates said something racist makes you pretty ignorant, try looking up 'tory candidate racism' or 'labour candidate racism' and you'll be surprised!
Have any of you actually read their manifesto? If you haven't, you can't say anything negative about the party itself because you don't know [I]shit[/I] about what they want to do.[/QUOTE]
Ukip aren't a racist party but a lot of their rhetoric is seen as inflammatory and negative relative to other parties which certainly doesn't give them a good impression to most people.
There's nothing unreasonable about wanting to reduce immigration but the way in which Ukip argues it makes it seem unreasonable, for example what Farage said about people with HIV and health tourism on one of the leaders debates or what he said about Romanians before the 2014 European elections.
Moreso many Ukip supporters who I've talked to are much more unreasonably zealous and malicious than those of other parties. They think that everyone is in some conspiracy against them, that their party can do no wrong and that all the pollsters are lying and underestimating their support on purpose. They think they're making some big principled stand in politics when really they're just a side show which indisputably helps Labour win(which most Ukip supporters preffer less to a Conservative victory) but they either don't listen or don't care when this is pointed out to them.
As a Eurosceptic Conservative I have a lot of sympathies with Ukip and some of their policies but I find their rhetoric repugnant and their supporters intolerable.
[QUOTE=Lord Xenoyia;47632108]I'd like to prefix this post by saying I support UKIP, am a member of UKIP and will be voting UKIP. I'm not scared to say this.
UKIP is not racist. Wanting to tighten our borders is not racist. Thinking Nigel/UKIP is racist because their main policies are harsh on immigration OR because a few of their candidates said something racist makes you pretty ignorant, try looking up 'tory candidate racism' or 'labour candidate racism' and you'll be surprised!
Have any of you actually read their manifesto? If you haven't, you can't say anything negative about the party itself because you don't know [I]shit[/I] about what they want to do.[/QUOTE]I dunno, maybe I'm just a little prejudice against a dude who is openly against people coming to this country to get help with HIV.
It's not just about tightening our borders. It's about wanting to leave the EU for no apparent reason other than wanting to control our borders even though immigrants bring a net profit to the country. It's about wanting to drastically cut the foreign aid budget by over 71%. It's about wanting to restrict immigrants even more than they already are. It's about wanting to take away the NHS from immigrants until they're here for five years. They want to let businesses give born-British people jobs instead of immigrants, even if the immigrant is more suited for the job. It's about how, according to YouGov polls, over half of UKIP supports consider [I]themselves[/I] at least a little racially prejudiced.
All of these things put together along with the racist comments from many of their supporters, for me, make me think they're racist.
And you know what? It's not even just that that makes UKIP an awful party.
It's that also that they want to remove sex education from primary schools. They want to stop paying teachers based on how well they teach. They want to stop the mansion tax, meaning people that are already rich get richer. They want to get rid of funding for wind and solar energy companies even though those are literally the future of energy. They want to stop anyone with a criminal record voting, even if it's for something extremely small and happened a year ago. They want to drastically lower the BBC's budget. They want to keep trident as it is even though it's 100% stored in Scotland and Scotland doesn't want it.
I'm sure (in fact, I know) UKIP have some great policies - but all of this shit I've just listed? It's awful. Even if a lot of people disagree that [I]all[/I] of it is bad I'm sure most can agree [I]a lot of it[/I] is bad. Do the other parties also have their fair share of stupid policies? Probably. Do any of them have as long of a list as UKIP does? Nowhere close.
UKIP is a horrible party.
[QUOTE=The mouse;47632308]Ukip aren't a racist party but a lot of their rhetoric is seen as inflammatory and negative relative to other parties which certainly doesn't give them a good impression to most people.
There's nothing unreasonable about wanting to reduce immigration but the way in which Ukip argues it makes it seem unreasonable, for example what Farage said about people with HIV and health tourism on one of the leaders debates or what he said about Romanians before the 2014 European elections.
Moreso many Ukip supporters who I've talked to are much more unreasonably zealous and malicious than those of other parties. They think that everyone is in some conspiracy against them, that their party can do no wrong and that all the pollsters are lying and underestimating their support on purpose. They think they're making some big principled stand in politics when really they're just a side show which indisputably helps Labour win(which most Ukip supporters preffer less to a Conservative victory) but they either don't listen or don't care when this is pointed out to them.
As a Eurosceptic Conservative I have a lot of sympathies with Ukip and some of their policies but I find their rhetoric repugnant and their supporters intolerable.[/QUOTE]
Despite how the HIV comment blew up an outrage against Farage / UKIP, I can't actually say that what he said was unreasonable. I mean at the end of the day someone has to pay for it - and if the UK is paying for it, the taxpayer is paying for it. I mean they have a really bad disease and I feel for them on an individual level, and I don't blame them at all for coming here to get treatment, but that doesn't mean I think that the country should pay for it.
The same is true of what he said about foreign aid. We could save a lot of money there. I realise that the aid helps out a lot of people in dire circumstances across the world, but when we've got our own financial issues that should be #1.
I don't think the points Farage made on either of these subjects in the debate were abhorrent. I don't feel that it is the government's right to essentially give away tax payer money to charitable causes outside of the UK - if individuals have such strong feelings about it then they can contribute to these causes privately. I don't see why either should be funded by UK tax payer money.
I don't support UKIP and I'm on the fence with regards to EU membership as I don't know enough (and neither do the majority of the population, MP's included I think), but I think a lot of the things Farage said that have blown up in the media aren't really as terrible as many make them out to be.
[QUOTE=Jallen;47632426]I don't see why either should be funded by UK tax payer money.[/QUOTE]Probably because most people have compassion for others.
I'm not voting UKIP either but like a lot of people I do agree with some of their policies, the main one being immigration. I've said many times before that I want the Australian point system and with it the the ability to say no to people, but unfortunately being part of the EU means that will never happen and while I'm not Pro Euro I'm not Anti Euro enough to vote out of it, at my age and life circumstances it's a major risk to take.
[QUOTE=Freeze;47632442]Probably because most people have compassion for others.[/QUOTE]
Then give privately to charity - if it's such a big deal to you and "most people" then they won't have an issue with funding now will they? I don't see how you can justify this as a responsibility of the UK government.
[QUOTE=Jallen;47632446]Then give privately to charity - if it's such a big deal to you and "most people" then they won't have an issue with funding now will they? I don't see how you can justify this as a responsibility of the UK government.[/QUOTE]Because us not giving that tax money to foreign aid doesn't mean we don't have to pay tax. Us not paying tax money doesn't suddenly mean we have an extra 20% or whatever income to give to charity - the money goes to other places and in UKIP's manifesto it would go to things like keeping trident up and increasing our defence budget.
[QUOTE=Freeze;47632471]Because us not giving that tax money to foreign aid doesn't mean we don't have to pay tax. Us not paying tax money doesn't suddenly mean we have an extra 20% or whatever income to give to charity - the money goes to other places and in UKIP's manifesto it would go to things like keeping trident up and increasing our defence budget.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, don't get me wrong, I'm not a UKIP supporter and I don't necessarily agree with what they'd do with the money instead. I just think that with the current financial situation, it's not unreasonable to stop or at least reduce giving away tax payer money which has been collected from UK citizens for the UK government.
My point was that what Farage said on those particular points wasn't the terrible crime against humanity that many seemed to make them out to be, but instead just points of view on the responsibilities of the UK government and their right to give away money in a time of our own financial need.
con/snp coalition, calling it now
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