Totalbiscuit - The Framerate Police - General

[QUOTE=The Kins;48220091]No, please, you have to understand. A turn-based sprite-based 2D game from ten years ago not updating the screen a specific, arbitrary number of times harms my [I]gamer identity[/I].[/quote] Or you know, if a 30fps lock on a turn-based sprite-based 2D game from ten years ago doesn't bother you then just play it and mind your own business??? [quote]Well, you have to keep in mind, this is a guy who a.) [url=http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2634792]claims to have an IQ of 155[/url] and b.) thought the fact he was pooping blood wasn't a sign of serious medical problems (which it was!), but because he was grumpy about internet forum comments. We're dealing with someone who has a lot to say, but nothing to say. If that makes sense.[/QUOTE] Look, someone discrediting what somebody says for completely irrelevant reasons.

[QUOTE=The Kins;48220091]No, please, you have to understand. A turn-based sprite-based 2D game from ten years ago not updating the screen a specific, arbitrary number of times harms my [I]gamer identity[/I]. Well, you have to keep in mind, this is a guy who a.) [url=http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2634792]claims to have an IQ of 155[/url] and b.) thought the fact he was pooping blood wasn't a sign of serious medical problems (which it was!), but because he was grumpy about internet forum comments. We're dealing with someone who has a lot to say, but nothing to say. If that makes sense.[/QUOTE] A) He has said numerous times that that SA post was among the dumbest thing's hes ever said and regrets it. B)Didn't think that pooping blood was bad? You must be remembering it wrong since he did a video and Sound cloud urging people to check themselves if they have similar problems and C)Why do people feel the need to post those two specific things as some ultimate trump card when TB is mentioned. It has nothing to do on the subject and all you're accomplishing is looking like a jackass.

What the fuck is wrong with you people? If you think 30 fps is okay then good for you, go away instead of trying to find moronic excuses on why is TB devil incarnate for making something as harmless and useful as this. No developer is hurt by this outside of the shits who rely on lack of information to get their sales, aka scammers.

[QUOTE=Eric95;48220005]Because it makes a big deal about something that very few people would notice anyway. It puts a negative light on things. Most people wouldn't have noticed if a game was in 30fps, but now because Totalbiscuit, the PC gaming authority marked it as a 30fps game it's automatically bad and they shouldn't buy it[/QUOTE] [url]http://30vs60.com/[/url] How can you even say this "most people wouldn't have noticed" shit. I INSTANTLY notice 60 fps everywhere.

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;48215557]"Undermining opinions as if they are nothing" well if that's the case arent you undermining the opinion of people who don't particularly care? It's a two way street with opinions of things, and as much as you wanna spout that 60 is "required" and deva are the incarnation of video game Satan for not fixing their game logic you have to understand that for a lot of these games the people just arent given the budget to completely rework those systems. And people dislike the curator system because 90 percent of the time it's pointless and people mod the store page to not show it anyway.[/QUOTE] If you don't care, by definition you have no opinion.

What I want to know is why there seems to be this sentiment that you need a super expensive, beastly computer to run everything at 60fps. My computer is above average I would say (GTX960 and an i5-4460) but nowhere near super high end, and I manage 60fps on games released this year, even on high.

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;48215498]Another reason to not care about curators 30fps locks can be shitty, especially when it's a western company that does simultaneous release. Do I think you need to go out of your way to inform people of a fps lock? Maybe, depends really, I expect that his fanbase will push it to the top when in reality its a super small subset of people that actually get angry about fps locks.[/QUOTE] Considering the main draw of pc gaming is [B]choice[/B] I can absolutely support this argument. Does every game need to run 60 fps or bust? Not necessarily, but as a consumer I'd like to be made aware of any performance limitations before I buy. We have hardware that can support 120 fps and higher, but developers consistently go for the low hanging fruit that is 30 fps. I probably wouldn't mind this if they were at least honest about it. No, you don't want it to be "cinematic" you just want to make the game prettier when decent art direction is usually sufficient. Nintendo's games are beautiful and run 1080p/60fps pretty consistently. It's very disappointing that this SOMEHOW can't be accomplished on pc which has hardware that the consoles can only dream of. I think ideally, 60 fps needs to become a standard. There is no arguing about it, 60 fps is objectively better than 30 fps. I can stand 30 fps but in every case when offered the choice I will go for 60 fps. If devs want to keep doing 30 fps I guess that's fine, but don't screw over the people who have the hardware to achieve 60+ fps by hard locking your game to 30 fps. I guess what I'm trying to say is, at least leave the games uncapped. That way certain people can enjoy using the hardware they paid good money for.

I really don't get the complaints that the "devs are lazy" when it comes to capping a game at 30 FPS. Some may be, yes, especially if it's a shitty port job. In some cases though, there are just some decisions you have to make during game development to make sure that the game you're making has as little issues as possible and is as optimized as possible for the target platform. Sometimes, that target platform isn't PC, and sometimes it's issues you can't help. And while it isn't wise to "tie everything to the framerate" some mechanics absolutely require it for consistency and stability. Things like frame data in fighting games, and yes, even physics, especially if it's realtime in some cases. Just look at what happens to physics in Bethesda games if you bypass the cap of 60 FPS in their games. There are more reasons why some games are locked to 30/60 FPS than just incompetence.

[QUOTE=Rahu X;48221182]I really don't get the complaints that the "devs are lazy" when it comes to capping a game at 30 FPS. Some may be, yes, especially if it's a shitty port job. In some cases though, there are just some decisions you have to make during game development to make sure that the game you're making has as little issues as possible and is as optimized as possible for the target platform. Sometimes, that target platform isn't PC, and sometimes it's issues you can't help. And while it isn't wise to "tie everything to the framerate" some mechanics absolutely require it for consistency and stability. Things like frame data in fighting games, and yes, even physics, especially if it's realtime in some cases. Just look at what happens to physics in Bethesda games if you bypass the cap of 60 FPS in their games. There are more reasons why some games are locked to 30/60 FPS than just incompetence.[/QUOTE] That's true but if they all went the same route as your Bethesda example, it would be a lot more acceptable. If you're releasing it as a multi-platform game, there's not much reason to cap it to 30fps rather than 60fps or just no cap at all.

[QUOTE=sparky28000;48219905]It isn't about being able to deal with 30fps. The games that are locked at 30fps have no business being locked at any frame rate at all.[/QUOTE] Some actually have because they were programmed and optimized around 30fps and glitch out if you unlock the framerate.

I run Counter Strike: Source at 300 FPS - if you guys want some extra frames, just let me know, you can borrow mine.

[QUOTE=Rahu X;48221182]I really don't get the complaints that the "devs are lazy" when it comes to capping a game at 30 FPS. Some may be, yes, especially if it's a shitty port job. In some cases though, there are just some decisions you have to make during game development to make sure that the game you're making has as little issues as possible and is as optimized as possible for the target platform. Sometimes, that target platform isn't PC, and sometimes it's issues you can't help. And while it isn't wise to "tie everything to the framerate" some mechanics absolutely require it for consistency and stability. Things like frame data in fighting games, and yes, even physics, especially if it's realtime in some cases. Just look at what happens to physics in Bethesda games if you bypass the cap of 60 FPS in their games. There are more reasons why some games are locked to 30/60 FPS than just incompetence.[/QUOTE] All good games that require hitbox precision are locked at 60. Note that in cases like that, input is also frame dependent which means with a 30 fps lock you can only read inputs 30 times per second. For any action oriented game that's far too little, be it a fighter or character action game. As for beth case, they're known for being shit at software development. In well made games physics does not spazz out if it goes over a certain fps limit. When it comes to beth though, you can see that most systems in their games are rather half assed and held together by snot. If you absolutely have to lock fps, do it for 60. Hell, I personally turn down the graphics to get more fps as smooth game to me is more important than good looking one. I am on PC, I want a choice to pick whatever I want, be it 60 fps or 90 fov. Just like consoles have their design principles, so does PC. A good pc game allows you to choose and customize settings to your liking. What's next, we lock resolution too (a thing in some games)? Don't be ridiculous. If you make a game for PC you either explicitly state that it's fps locked or you make it work at variable framerate. It's very anti-consumer to hide technical information. Thankfully we have steam refunds now.

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;48221529]But DMG, that makes the game bad no matter what and we should send those developers to hell![/QUOTE] For fast-paced 3D games, +60fps is a standard we should have kept from the beginning and you can't argue about it, 60fps IS better than 30fps. It's nothing unachievable, almost all of the WiiU games run at 60fps and we had many great PS2 or Gamecube games running at a very high and stable +60 framerate back in the days. But as utopic as it sounds, it's not so simple to develop a 60fps game because of project given restrictions... (console optimization) Many AAA games are made with a specific setup in mind and they get optimized to run with the best effect at a stable framerate on all consoles. A game that you guarantee to look outstanding on 30fps on the PS4 wont look the same if it would run with 60fps, because of downgrades you have to do to keep a stable high framerate, so many publishers decide to go with the graphics instead of 60fps (because this also promotes the hardware) So why can't these AAA games have 60fps on PC and 30fps on consoles? Well, a lot of the game logic will be bound to the framerate during development once they decide to go with a 30fps optimized game and there is a LOT of stuff that depends on the framerate. Particle Systems, Hit detection, Hitboxes, Gameloops, Animations, Input, Trigger events... etc etc. Of course[B] this does not apply to every engine and every game[/B] but this is why some developers cap the FPS to 30, because they cannot guarantee you the same glitch free experience with 60fps.

[QUOTE=DMGaina;48221793] [B]Well, a lot of the game logic will be bound to the framerate during development once they decide to go with a 30fps optimized game and there is a LOT of stuff that depends on the framerate.[/B] [/QUOTE] This is bad. Nobody should ever do this.

as an arma player I am used to 30 fps but it's still awful to play with and I'd love to reach a constant 60fps during a busy arma game.

[QUOTE=IrishBandit;48221802]This is bad. Nobody should ever do this.[/QUOTE] I got disagrees for no good reason even if I said that not every game does this. :v: Here is a small list of games I remember with issues that only happen when you unlock the framerate: [B]Batman Arkham Knight[/B] - Particle System was creating too many particles when the game was uncapped to 60fps and that killed the framerate; animations were broken; it becomes highly unstable [B]Killer is Dead [/B]- Quick time events are not working properly anymore [B]Dark Souls[/B] - You had a good chance of falling trough the floor when you're sliding down the ladder [B]Call of Duty Advanced Warfare[/B] - The EM1 laser rifle killed online players FASTER if you had a higher framerate [url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiTF6jdmfOA[/url] [B]Need for Speed: Rivals [/B]- game ran insanely fast; it was absolutely unplayable Also I have heard of games where ragdolls spaz out because they don't update their position accordingly to the framerate, in-game time doesn't run properly anymore, lip sync problems, animation bugs and more if you uncap the framerate

[QUOTE=DMGaina;48221511]Some actually have because they were programmed and optimized around 30fps and glitch out if you unlock the framerate.[/QUOTE] That's what I meant. I get that games for older consoles like the GameCube were developed around 30fps but that is something that modern games shouldn't do.

[QUOTE=sparky28000;48221975]That's what I meant. I get that games for older consoles like the GameCube were developed around 30fps but that is something that modern games shouldn't do.[/QUOTE] A publisher would rather see an oustanding looking stable 30fps game instead of a "good" looking 60fps game on a newer console. Because every step you do to get stable 60fps, you have to scrap shaders, polygons, particles and post effects and you loose quality (on the consoles) That's why they decide to work on a high quality and stable 30fps game. And the step from 30fps console to +60fps PC can be hard if you never plan the PC plattform into the development. What's even more sad is that there were many games on the Gamecube, Dreamcast and PS2 running on 60fps. Burnout 2 - 4, FZero GX, Soul Calibur, Vanishing Point, Tekken Tag Tournament...

[QUOTE=DMGaina;48222043]A publisher would rather see an oustanding looking stable 30fps game instead of a "good" looking 60fps game on a newer console. Because every step you do to get stable 60fps, you have to scrap shaders, polygons, particles and post effects and you loose quality (on the consoles) That's why they decide to work on a high quality and stable 30fps game. And the step from 30fps console to +60fps PC can be hard if you never plan the PC plattform into the development.[/QUOTE] Yeah you're spot on, that's why they do it. And its still a bad thing that sucks.

[QUOTE=DMGaina;48222043]A publisher would rather see an oustanding looking stable 30fps game instead of a "good" looking 60fps game on a newer console. Because every step you do to get stable 60fps, you have to scrap shaders, polygons, particles and post effects and you loose quality (on the consoles) That's why they decide to work on a high quality and stable 30fps game. And the step from 30fps console to +60fps PC can be hard if you never plan the PC plattform into the development.[/QUOTE] I get that but you can still optimise a game for 30fps without permanently locking the fps.

[QUOTE=Killuah;48219977]Hello I'm playing Witcher 3 @ around 17 fps [editline]16th July 2015[/editline] And I really can't afford new hardware and I imagine to everyon who is not as rich or well off or ready to spend the money of two awesome vacations on hardware this debate sounds just as alien as it does to me.[/QUOTE] imagine buying hardware that makes every game you own run perfectly at any setting. 60fps 100% of the time stable. now imagine a developer say that you have to run it at a poorer framerate. You HAVE to run it at 30 fps because "we tied basic game logic to frames" so the game will break. You have this nice computer and this dev said that you aren't allowed to run the game effectively. Why even buy it. Or better yet. Imagine 30fps becomes the norm for whatever dumb reason. Now people are having games locked at 15 fps and people are saying "Why do you even care, its still playable lmao".

[QUOTE=sparky28000;48222068]I get that but you can still optimise a game for 30fps without permanently locking the fps.[/QUOTE] Not necessarily, because a lot of the game logic and ticks are sometimes bound to the framerate and games can break if you uncap it. Again, this doesn't apply to all games and engines, this happens only if you have a priority for a 30fps console game and decide to somehow make a PC port later on OR let a 3rd party do the port for you. Check my posts above for some examples: [url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1476218&p=48221793&viewfull=1#post48221793[/url] [url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1476218&p=48221922&viewfull=1#post48221922[/url]

[QUOTE=DMGaina;48222107]Not necessarily, because a lot of the game logic and ticks are sometimes bound to the framerate and games can break if you uncap it. [url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1476218&p=48221793&viewfull=1#post48221793[/url] [url]http://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1476218&p=48221922&viewfull=1#post48221922[/url][/QUOTE] You can still optimise a game for 30fps without permanently locking the framerate and binding ticks to fps. The whole idea of binding ticks to fps is something that should be forgotten.

30fps sucks on consoles too but most games are and I can't deal with that aswell as upsized resolutions aswell ass gamepad input delay so I don't play a lot of games on console anyway.

[QUOTE=Eric95;48220005]Because it makes a big deal about something that very few people would notice anyway. It puts a negative light on things. Most people wouldn't have noticed if a game was in 30fps, but now because Totalbiscuit, the PC gaming authority marked it as a 30fps game it's automatically bad and they shouldn't buy it[/QUOTE] Didn't you also try to say that games being locked to low FOVs is a good thing because high FOVs ruin the game's art? And then denied that simulation sickness is a real thing. And then said that people who struggle with it are just- and I quote- "Entitled nerds" that need to get over it? [QUOTE=Eric95;47878996]Looks fine to me, if you're bothered by a low FoV you should probably take a break from video games for a while cant play my SUPERIOR PC GAMES without my FOV SLIDERS and GRAPHIC OPTIONS on my $3000 MONSTER RIG!! PC GAMIIIIING! VIDEO GAMES ARE MY LIFE[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Eric95;47879053] [QUOTE=Cold Finger;47879041]Except some people are genuinely unable to play at a low FOV because they feel sick from it.[/QUOTE] Just like some people are "genuinely" unable to play at anything below 60fps Stop playing for a while and suddenly you don't notice any of that stuff [QUOTE=minilandstan;47879072]One is the belief that games shouldn't be tanking at 30 fps, the other is a medical condition.[/QUOTE] i think it's called "being an entitled nerd" [highlight](User was banned for this post ("trölling" - Orkel))[/highlight][/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Eric95;47879337]I'm an artist, not a gamer Meaning I care about how the artwork is presented[/QUOTE] Boy, I'm sure inclined to take you seriously.

[QUOTE=EcksDee;48220285][url]http://30vs60.com/[/url] How can you even say this "most people wouldn't have noticed" shit. I INSTANTLY notice 60 fps everywhere.[/QUOTE] I can't wait for someone on this thread to go "b-b-b-but, that's just 15 vs 30! they are lying to you!"

[QUOTE=zerosix;48215329]but the idea of someone going to the extent of setting up a steam page to "report" 30 fps games simply because you are slightly irritated by it is literally one of the stupidest and most counter productive things i've ever heard imagine spending actual hours of your life doing that shit instead of just dealing with it and enjoying a 30 fps game despite the slight annoyance of it not looking ~enitrely~ smooth[/QUOTE] What part of: [QUOTE=MrJazzy;48215283]people are just saying (including TB) that [B]they don't want to play games locked at 30fps.[/B][/QUOTE] Did you read and come to the conclusion that we find 30fps slightly annoying? If steam didn't ban 30fps as a tag this wouldn't be an issue, it's as simple as that.

[QUOTE=Mikk;48215157]Am I the only person who doesn't find games unplayable at 30 frames a fucking second?[/QUOTE] Last game that I remember playing at a noticeable 30 fps was mgs4 It dipped a lot, and when it didnt, it was still very noticeable. 60fps should be a standard for fucking everything, if not just for the peace of mind if for some reason the framerate dips

[QUOTE=Mikk;48215157]Am I the only person who doesn't find games unplayable at 30 frames a fucking second?[/QUOTE] Nah you're not, and that's cool for you, but it's irrelevant to this issue.

[QUOTE=DMGaina;48221511]Some actually have because they were programmed and optimized around 30fps and glitch out if you unlock the framerate.[/QUOTE] That means they didn't use deltatime which means that if you get fluctuations of fps for other reasons that will affect the game too, it's a shit way to program. Skimmed through this but it seems to explain it pretty well: [url]https://www.scirra.com/tutorials/67/delta-time-and-framerate-independence[/url]