[QUOTE=Tunak Mk. II;52998379]I've played through Catherine more times than I care to admit on both consoles. I have no doubt that I'm a bigger fan of the game than you, but even so I can recognize that there are problematic elements within it.[/QUOTE]
Seems like you'll play the games regardless of how problematic you think they are towards LGBT tho
[QUOTE]you should consider how media like this can affect certain people before rushing in to declare it unimpeachable.[/QUOTE]
I never heard of any problems popping up because of the game, all people used to talk about is how cool of a puzzle game it is
[QUOTE=Tunak Mk. II;52998379]If the entirety of P5 was just Kamoshida, I'd agree with you, but the plots involving Madarame onwards are totally silly. It's entertaining, but not believable. The same goes for burning parents. I'm not sure what you define as "mature", but edgy anime melodrama doesn't quite equate with actual adult themes. The same goes for using an entire group of people as the butt of an unnecessary and mean-spirited joke. I don't know why you're getting so defensive over a minor aspect of the monument that is Persona 5. It's possible to enjoy something while admitting that it has it's flaws.
Nice bait. I spent 100+ hours playing through Persona 5, so I think I know what I'm talking about. I've played through Catherine more times than I care to admit on both consoles. I have no doubt that I'm a bigger fan of the game than you, but even so I can recognize that there are problematic elements within it. Making LGBT themes, played for laughs in the original game, a major element of the remake is concerning. Not only has this team proven itself incapable of addressing the subject in a respectful manner, there is no way that they will be able to smoothly incorporate them into such a contained, preexisting narrative. I'm [i]really[/i] sorry you confuse my criticism for controversy, but maybe you should consider how media like this can affect certain people before rushing in to declare it unimpeachable.[/QUOTE]
I've played Persona 5 200+ hours and Catherine for hundreds as well. Lmao "hurr I'm a bigger fan so therefore I'm more correct" hahahaha are you serious? This is your rebuttal? I can't believe you fell for both baits! By the way that stuff in Persona 2 is not edgy it's shocking and done in a great way.
I remember some people complaining how this is more of a remake rather than a remaster.
Well the original Catherine is 6 years old already, so im not complaining, its just a shame its PS4 exclusive, but hey at least we got a vita version!
And yeah Im wondering what they are going to do with rin with her/him being trans or crossdresser, people are asumming she's like the neutral route, but I don't think its that route because there is a neutral route in the game [sp]Freedom True Ending is best ending[/sp]
There is one thing that bothers me tho, Rin really looks like the girl from Lazy Town.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;52998387]Seems like you'll play the games regardless of how problematic you think they are towards LGBT tho[/QUOTE]
So you can't criticise aspects of something you like? I've played p3,4,5+Catherine and think they're decent games but I don't brush off how badly the writers can treat lgbt characters and themes. Frankly don't have much hope for rins character not being a trainwreck because of writers that don't understand what they're writing about
[QUOTE=LuaChobo;52998485]Japan doesn't really have a proper concept of "trans" and generally Japanese trans people just start a new life post transition due to awful stigma surrounding it
you are expected to fit into society, being trans is just not really compatible with the Japanese notion of "fitting in" so of course Japanese developers won't be great at discussing it.
I'm not giving them a pass on this but it's completely foreign as a social concept to most there which is why chances are its gonna be "essentially trans but contextually crossdresser" like most media surrounding it
don't get your hopes up, Japan is still getting used to The Gays™[/QUOTE]
I mean, the same thing happens with mental and social disorders too. They're a very traditionalist and 'shared mindset' country, slower to change on these sorts of views than the west. There's an entire manga series that was about a single mother having to raise a child with autism, and the social stigma and problems they faced in life because of the problem. A Silent Voice actually had lobbyists in Japan trying to prevent it being published so that both the bullying habits the characters demonstrated as children and the stigma against those with disorders or abnormalities didn't reach the public or foreign eye.
Making a podium specifically about transgenders and gays being made the butt of jokes in products from a foreign country is kind of small time compared to much more severe issues that people have been chipping away at for decades as is and face resistance on every side around them in the process. If anything, the attempts at humor are crass, but it's, as much as I hate that i'm saying this, better than others outright ignoring said transgender/gay characters or giving them grief explicitly over it. Yosuke's case with Kanji in Persona 4 is still a friend giving another friend a hard time rather than being a disparaging dickwad, not to mention Kanji is either bisexual or surprisingly non-stereotypical about it rather than just "ha ha he's an effeminate gay guy, point at him and laugh."
[QUOTE=LuaChobo;52998485]Japan doesn't really have a proper concept of "trans" and generally Japanese trans people just start a new life post transition due to awful stigma surrounding it
you are expected to fit into society, being trans is just not really compatible with the Japanese notion of "fitting in" so of course Japanese developers won't be great at discussing it.
I'm not giving them a pass on this but it's completely foreign as a social concept to most there which is why chances are its gonna be "essentially trans but contextually crossdresser" like most media surrounding it
don't get your hopes up, Japan is still getting used to The Gays™[/QUOTE]
I understand this and the fact that atlus' writing is reflective of Japanese society at large- although I will add that Japan does have two openly trans elected politicians and at least with the more clued in younger generation and academics they have terms like mtf, ftm, x gender etc.
[QUOTE=RikohZX;52998504]Making a podium specifically about transgenders and gays being made the butt of jokes in products from a foreign country is kind of small time compared to much more severe issues that people have been chipping away at for decades[/QUOTE]
I'm not looking to make a 'podium' or political statement out of this- just pointing out that as someone who plays atlus games, their understanding and treatment of lgbt people sucks and they could do better. Don't get what's so controversial about that. It's directly related to the Catherine re-release with the new character.
[QUOTE=Jammymanrock;52998425]So you can't criticise aspects of something you like?[/QUOTE]
:why:
I just don't understand how damaging it really is or believe it is at all when someone can play hundreds of hours of something they see is so problematic that it will negatively affect a community.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;52998561]:why:
I just don't understand how damaging it really is or believe it is at all when someone can play hundreds of hours of something they see is so problematic that it will negatively affect a community.[/QUOTE]
Because it's a good game? And it's fun? Why should thinking one aspect of a game is bad stop you from enjoying the rest of it?
[QUOTE=NoNameForEvil;52998413]all the stuff with toby saying he wouldn't have fucked her if he'd known she was trans + the fact that vincent misgendering her is used as a punchline.
plus the stuff with the nightmares and the comments from the gang are like the game is saying she's not a "[i]REAL[/i] woman".[/QUOTE]
It seems we both have different connotations of the word "joke"
[editline]22nd December 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Tunak Mk. II;52998148]Oh boy. The original's flirtation with . . . LGBT themes . . . was pretty insensitive already, but at least it was a minor line that only shows up in one of the many endings. I want to believe they'll do a respectful job with this new Catherine, but after seeing the representation in Persona 5, I don't have high hopes.[/QUOTE]
Bitch there was no representation in Persona 5.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;52998561]:why:
I just don't understand how damaging it really is or believe it is at all when someone can play hundreds of hours of something they see is so problematic that it will negatively affect a community.[/QUOTE]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/0OLeurF.jpg[/img]
:thinking:
[QUOTE=NoNameForEvil;52998413]all the stuff with toby saying he wouldn't have fucked her if he'd known she was trans + the fact that vincent misgendering her is used as a punchline.
plus the stuff with the nightmares and the comments from the gang are like the game is saying she's not a "[i]REAL[/i] woman".[/QUOTE]
seeing you force yourself into every thread and post that dare mentions trans people just so you can be the white knight is really pathetic
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Callout post" - Mezzokoko))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Jammymanrock;52998570]Because it's a good game? And it's fun? Why should thinking one aspect of a game is bad stop you from enjoying the rest of it?[/QUOTE]
Well, it is slightly contributing to it when someone openly praises the game so highly even when you acknowledge such a severe problem, it's like if people protesting against EA had bought Battlefront 2 anyway despite the issues, it doesn't make sense to me because if they did that then EA wouldn't have suffered the consequences they did, do you understand what I'm trying to saying?
If what he sees as a problem is legitimately damaging to the LGBT community, wouldn't it be better to protest against it properly, if you think there's such a big problem but you still praise and purchase the product, a company is must likely not to care about it at all.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;52998621]Well, it is slightly contributing to it when someone openly praises the game so highly even when you acknowledge such a severe problem, it's like if people protesting against EA had bought Battlefront 2 anyway despite the issues, it doesn't make sense to me because if they did that then EA wouldn't have suffered the consequences they did, do you understand what I'm trying to saying?
If what he sees as a problem is legitimately damaging to the LGBT community, wouldn't it be better to protest against it properly, if you think there's such a big problem but you still praise and purchase the product, a company is must likely not to care about it at all.[/QUOTE]
Not everyone can be an activist. I don't think it's hypocritical to criticise atlus for lgbt representation but still buy their games, it's always been a very small part of the overall game- it's not like microtransactions in bf2 that directly affects the core gameplay. It's only really a bigger deal with the Catherine re-release since the new character here is most likely some form of trans or crossdresser- as for how it is, we'll wait and see. I'm personally not interested in buying it unless the new content turns out unlike I expect since I've already played it on PS3.
There's a big difference between a game with one mean joke hidden away in one of it's nine endings and a game that takes that same sentiment and applies it to it's cover character. Even if Catherine [i]was[/i] rhetorically abhorrent, it would still be a significant accomplishment of game design.
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;52997967]They already didn't handle it well with[sp]the Erica situation,[/sp]I'm just being optimistic and hoping this can't be worse than that.[/QUOTE]
How exactly ? [sp]The characters are young adults and most of them are kind of assholes. Would make sense they wouldn't know how to really handle the situation when one of the central plot points is that none of the male characters are good with relationships or with women in general.[/sp]
[QUOTE=NoNameForEvil;52998663]i have posted in literally 2 threads at most but okay. this is the weirdest callout i've ever received.
sorry for caring about trans people, i guess?[/QUOTE]
I'm not sure how your criticism of the game equates to you "caring about trans people" since it sounds more like a broad misunderstanding of the story as a whole.
[QUOTE=NoNameForEvil;52998663]i have posted in literally 2 threads at most but okay. this is the weirdest callout i've ever received.
sorry for caring about trans people, i guess?[/QUOTE]
no, quit [I]FORCING[/I] yourself in to threads in which [I]anyone can post[/I] and is [I]free for anyone to join any discussion[/I] whenever someone talks about a [I]topic you're passionate about[/I]
you [I]FUCK[/I]
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Callout post" - Mezzokoko))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;52998648]How exactly ? [sp]The characters are young adults and most of them are kind of assholes. Would make sense they wouldn't know how to really handle the situation when one of the central plot points is that none of the male characters are good with relationships or with women in general.[/sp][/QUOTE][QUOTE=Ganerumo;52998670]I'm not sure how your criticism of the game equates to you "caring about trans people" since it sounds more like a broad misunderstanding of the story as a whole.[/QUOTE]
Exactly, it's not the game saying "trans people r bad" it's the characters being fucking assholes.
One of the game's central themes is about the rotteness of adulthood and the rottenness of people in general, did you not expect it to pull some raunchy shit?
No you don't understand the characters reflect the views of Atlus guys and this means Atlus hates trans people
[QUOTE=Lord of Boxes;52998676]Exactly, it's not the game saying "trans people r bad" it's the characters being fucking assholes.
One of the game's central themes is about the rotteness of adulthood and the rottenness of people in general, did you not expect it to pull some raunchy shit?[/QUOTE]
I can agree with you if it was just the main cast being transphobic as part of their characterisations, however, on top of that the game specifically [sp]uses Erica's previous name and lists her as male in out of universe material and in game she says that she has the nightmares, which in the game only men have[/sp] These things aren't a matter of taste in humour- not just the characters but the game devs themselves are outright stating that [sp]she's male, even though she's explicitly coded as trans. Which is it? [/sp]
[QUOTE=Jammymanrock;52998709]I can agree with you if it was just the main cast being transphobic as part of their characterisations, however, on top of that the game specifically [sp]uses Erica's previous name and lists her as male in out of universe material and in game she says that she has the nightmares, which in the game only men have[/sp] These things aren't a matter of taste in humour- not just the characters but the game devs themselves are outright stating that [sp]she's male, even though she's explicitly coded as trans. Which is it? [/sp][/QUOTE]
Seems fairly menial, on top of the fact some of the meaning of these choices may have been lost in translation. In-game, [sp]Erica[/sp] being trans is not outright spelled out until the very end and only in one of the eight endings, and only then do you get to know her real name.
As for the nightmares it still fits the internal logic because (heavy spoilers) [sp]Erica literally knows, and works for, the creator of those nightmares, and he's the one who chooses who gets to be sent there. The internal logic of the antagonist is that he wants to get rid of people who do not intend to have children, so he mostly targets people who are preventing others from having kids and a proper family - this includes unfaithful, non-committal men but in the case of Erica it includes her because she cannot have children and thus is preventing Toby from starting a proper family.[/sp]
TL;DR [sp]Erica isn't targeted because she used to be a man, she's targeted because she's infertile. Also because the antagonist is an asshole.[/sp]
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;52998738]Seems fairly menial, on top of the fact some of the meaning of these choices may have been lost in translation. In-game, [sp]Erica[/sp] being trans is not outright spelled out until the very end and only in one of the eight endings, and only then do you get to know her real name.
As for the nightmares it still fits the internal logic because (heavy spoilers) [sp]Erica literally knows, and works for, the creator of those nightmares, and he's the one who chooses who gets to be sent there. The internal logic of the antagonist is that he wants to get rid of people who do not intend to have children, so he mostly targets people who are preventing others from having kids and a proper family - this includes unfaithful, non-committal men but in the case of Erica it includes her because she cannot have children and thus is preventing Toby from starting a proper family.[/sp]
TL;DR [sp]Erica isn't targeted because she used to be a man, she's targeted because she's infertile. Also because the antagonist is an asshole.[/sp][/QUOTE]
OK, that explanation does make sense. Still, I think that [sp] the devs intentionally stating that an explicitly trans character is actually still male, vague or not,[/sp] is not menial or some cultural thing being lost in translation- it shows how they approached writing this character and a lack of understanding and empathy for real people they're writing about. We're at a pretty fundamental disagreement.
[QUOTE=Jammymanrock;52998709]I can agree with you if it was just the main cast being transphobic as part of their characterisations, however, on top of that the game specifically [sp]uses Erica's previous name and lists her as male in out of universe material and in game she says that she has the nightmares, which in the game only men have[/sp] These things aren't a matter of taste in humour- not just the characters but the game devs themselves are outright stating that [sp]she's male, even though she's explicitly coded as trans. Which is it? [/sp][/QUOTE]
I think Japanese has several trans-specific words that tend to be translated that way (eg a man and a transwoman both become "man"), although I don't know why.
[QUOTE=Jammymanrock;52998756]OK, that explanation does make sense. Still, I think that [sp] the devs intentionally stating that an explicitly trans character is actually still male, vague or not,[/sp] is not menial or some cultural thing being lost in translation- it shows a lack of understanding and empathy for real people they're writing about. We're at a pretty fundamental disagreement.[/QUOTE]
Again, translation can be a bit of a bitch. The developers of the game are Japanese and thus there's not only a hefty language barrier but also a fairly big cultural barrier as well. I don't think it's fair to accuse the developers of lacking "empathy" when you're projecting a specific perception of the issue onto a completely different culture which, by the way, does have far more trans/crossdressing characters in their media than the west ever has.
[QUOTE=Jammymanrock;52998709]I can agree with you if it was just the main cast being transphobic as part of their characterisations, however, on top of that the game specifically [sp]uses Erica's previous name and lists her as male in out of universe material and in game she says that she has the nightmares, which in the game only men have[/sp] These things aren't a matter of taste in humour- not just the characters but the game devs themselves are outright stating that [sp]she's male[/sp][/QUOTE]
[sp]I think that the fact she's having the dreams is meant more for foreshadowing than anything else. i'm not so sure about the credits and stuff tho.[/sp]
honestly I wouldn't immediately shoot down the idea that there's some transphobic writers working for Atlus but considering how positive that kind of character is portrayed, i also don't doubt that there are at least a couple that are more open minded. i'm more worried about whether or not Rin will be a needless waifu than her representation.
[QUOTE=Aredbomb;52998767]I think Japanese has several trans-specific words that tend to be translated that way (eg a man and a transwoman both become "man"), although I don't know why.[/QUOTE]
Unless you're talking about okama, I can't think of what word your talking about. Okama is used broadly as slang for homosexuals, transgender, crossdressers etc and is pretty derogatory. The most common slang for transsexuals in Japan is newhalf, which is still pretty explicit in that they're transwomen, not men.
I don't think that the atlus writers are intentionally belligerent, just ignorant, Japanese cultural differences or not. Their view of gender isn't mutually exclusive with ours; like I said, with the government, medical practitioners and young people, awareness and understanding is much much better.
Nonetheless it seems very menial to focus so much on that when the game actually goes out of its way to handle it tactfully despite a major plot point being that everyone involved (including the trans character herself) is kind of a dick and kind of manipulative to a degree (ie by cheating, or in the case of the trans character because [sp]she lies frequently, makes up stories, and did not disclose the nature of her transition to her love interest until well after they began to be intimate[/sp].
[editline]23rd December 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Kiwi;52998794]I have to admit. Reading this made me feel pretty bad. Nobody should ever post like this.
On topic. It’s not like they haven’t tried before and Japan is actually still getting used to the idea but the idea of this will be formed around their market and what happens in Japanese society. As a western I don’t honestly expect it to have good execution but it’s nice and I hope that they continue to explore the idea.
Really need to play Catherine first though[/QUOTE]
I'm a bit confused as to why you're saying this is new to Japan unless you're joking, because Japanese media makes considerably more use of this concept than western media. Especially Atlus, which has featured several such characters in their games before be it transgender or crossdressers, or both.
I mean, there's cases of Japan implementing crossdressing and trans characters in their games as early as '88. They've been using that concept for much longer than western game devs have, that's for sure.
Naoto's story in P4 wasn't trans though it was she thought being a boy would make people take her seriously. It's more about sexism in the workplace and Kanji's bi if anything
[QUOTE=Kiwi;52998794] Reading this made me feel pretty bad. [/QUOTE]
Sarcasm and context are lost on you, forum decor aside.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.