[QUOTE=Ganerumo;52998847]I mean, there's cases of Japan implementing crossdressing and trans characters in their games as early as '88. They've been using that concept for much longer than western game devs have, that's for sure.[/QUOTE]
... Wait, are you talking about birdo :v:
[QUOTE=Jammymanrock;52998859]... Wait, are you talking about birdo[/QUOTE]
Birdo's literally the first time Nintendo's put a transgender character in their game, yeah. And her backstory is that she's born male but can lay eggs so she identifies as female.
Given it was simplistic as fuck but it shows that the concept isn't new to Japanese games.
[QUOTE=SpartanXC9;52998854]Naoto's story in P4 wasn't trans though it was she thought being a boy would make people take her seriously. It's more about sexism in the workplace and [B]Kanji's bi if anything[/B][/QUOTE]
Most people, including myself, have interpreted it as Kanji being insecure with his masculinity because he has hobbies like knitting. Being gay is considered to be extremely unmasculine by the majority of people***, so Kanji gets so worked up about people thinking he's gay that he overcompensates with the whole thug act thing. Even though Kanji thinks Naoto is a boy, she is obviously very pretty even while disguised and so Kanji goes into a panic when he notices his own mild attraction to her.
***Remember, Japanese writers. I preemptively direct this notice at the clown who would skip directly to second page and pounce on me for saying that without getting any context for this thread.
I agree with most of the criticism people are mounting against the new character but I don't think the discussion is very useful until the game actually comes out. For all we know Rin might not even be trans or Vincent will learn over the course of the route that his previously held beliefs about trans people were bigoted.
Discussion regarding the original game is fair though. Hopefully the Catherine writers have become less discriminative if they do end up making Rin trans.
[QUOTE=ScottyWired;52999006]Most people, including myself, have interpreted it as Kanji being insecure with his masculinity because he has hobbies like knitting. Being gay is considered to be extremely unmasculine by the majority of people***, so Kanji gets so worked up about people thinking he's gay that he overcompensates with the whole thug act thing. Even though Kanji thinks Naoto is a boy, she is obviously very pretty even while disguised and so Kanji goes into a panic when he notices his own mild attraction to her.
***Remember, Japanese writers. I preemptively direct this notice at the clown who would skip directly to second page and pounce on me for saying that without getting any context for this thread.[/QUOTE]
Oh I agree I was just saying that in an extreme circumstance he's bi only because of the nose bleed scene when looking at Yu. I don't think he is because he's just naotosexual (like all intelligent people)
[QUOTE=SpartanXC9;52998204]Wait are you one of those people who thinks Kanji is gay and Naoto is trans?[/QUOTE]
glad to know there is only one way to interpret these characters and what they go through
[QUOTE=ophelia;52999068]glad to know there is only one way to interpret these characters and what they go through[/QUOTE]
Naoto isn't trans and Kanji ain't gay
[QUOTE=LittleBabyman;52998287]Can't we all just get along and actually [U]play[/U] video games?[/QUOTE]
You're not a real gamer unless you're getting in fights over them on the internet
The fighting game community is saved.
[QUOTE=SpartanXC9;52999092]Naoto isn't trans and Kanji ain't gay[/QUOTE]
Isn't Kanji's actual sexuality never addressed? His whole arch is based around his internal femininity and his struggle to grasp upon sexuality.[sp]His social link ends with him deciding to not to concern himself with it, if I remember correctly.[/sp]
[QUOTE=Lord of Boxes;52999203]Isn't Kanji's actual sexuality never addressed? His whole arch is based around his internal femininity and his struggle to grasp upon sexuality.[sp]His social link ends with him deciding to not to concern himself with it, if I remember correctly.[/sp][/QUOTE]
His while thing is accepting he's a dude that just enjoys girly things. He's straight
[QUOTE=Lord of Boxes;52999203]Isn't Kanji's actual sexuality never addressed? His whole arch is based around his internal femininity and his struggle to grasp upon sexuality.[sp]His social link ends with him deciding to not to concern himself with it, if I remember correctly.[/sp][/QUOTE]
he has the scene before the beauty pageant where he asks naoto to go on stage, to "clear his doubts" and "[URL="https://static.gamespot.com/uploads/original/mig/0/1/1/9/2030119-2013-02-20-022453_81339_.jpg"]make him a man[/URL]"
i think you can make assumptions off of this that kanji would not see himself as a man until he was sure he was attracted to a more feminine presenting naoto, making sure he's "not gay" (which i think is some of the worst writing in persona 4 actually). the closest we get to acceptance [sp] is his realization that his shadow is also him as well/a part of him in the end of his social link [/sp], but i dont remember much expression of non concern
Getting angry over trap*/trans characters in video games, the pinnacle of supporting LGBT.
give these people the rainbow heart award
It's so ridiculous seeing people pat themselves on the back for trying to prevent [i]more[/i] representation and claim they care and are fighting the good fight, especially on something so trivial as compared to actual dangers trans can face in public just from being noticed.
Anyways on-topic, I'm waiting to see this, even though it's a PS4 exclusive which is okay I guess... I bought one in preparation for Spider-man, but what kinda price point are they looking at for this game? I haven't seen one. Last time I wanted a Japanese game that was PS4 only it was $60 with like no sale to this day despite being at least a year old and I'm not sure about that. Also trying to find any release projection for US.
Edit:
*Rin's details aren't confirmed just yet
[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;52999265]Getting angry over trap characters in video games, the pinnacle of supporting LGBT.
give these people the rainbow heart award[/QUOTE]
i dont think referencing rin as a "trap" before it is confirmed whether they are crossdressing or trans is wise
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;52998768]Again, translation can be a bit of a bitch. The developers of the game are Japanese and thus there's not only a hefty language barrier but also a fairly big cultural barrier as well. I don't think it's fair to accuse the developers of lacking "empathy" when you're projecting a specific perception of the issue onto a completely different culture which, by the way, does have far more trans/crossdressing characters in their media than the west ever has.[/QUOTE]
I'd like to see the idea toyed with in more games, especially ones with character customization like TES/FO. I know Saints Row came close, you could make a fairly feminine male character and give them the female voice and vice versa
[editline]22nd December 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=ophelia;52999268]i dont think referencing rin as a "trap" before it is confirmed whether they are crossdressing or trans is wise[/QUOTE]
I was gonna say trans but noticed the first person in the thread corrected that trans wasn't confirmed and changed it to trap. I don't have a clue. I guess now I'm doing the opposite.
[QUOTE=ophelia;52999068]glad to know there is only one way to interpret these characters and what they go through[/QUOTE]
I don't know how much more direct you can get than the woman herself outright saying "female detectives aren't taken seriously and I really, really want to be a detective" in Naoto's case.
And as for kanji, the [I]entire social link[/I] is him coming to terms with wanting to knit and sew and not being gay; he puts on his machismo front and denies his ability to make handcrafts [I]because[/I] the only possible explanation vis-a-vis other people's expectations is that he's a homo (because, in case you forgot/missed it, the midnight channel isn't the person's inner desire, but [I]what society expects it to be[/I]).
[editline]22nd December 2017[/editline]
Like, it's one thing to have your own headcanon to project whatever onto these characters; that's fine! Totally okay. But to butt heads with people over your fantastical (mis)interpretations that ignore the bare, straight facts of the character, well...
[t]https://i.imgur.com/HJOyN4D.png[/t]
Like, usually, I’d be quick to have my hocks raised on a topic like this. However, considering the developer and its country of origin, you have to take into account that Japan has totally different ideals in regards to identity and sexuality. I’m not saying that it can’t be criticized, but I’m giving it some leeway.
Plus isn’t the game already gray morally? And characters being dicks is because they’re dicks, iirc it’s made out that being a dick isn’t a positive thing.
[QUOTE=Gray Altoid;52999403]I don't know how much more direct you can get than the woman herself outright saying "female detectives aren't taken seriously and I really, really want to be a detective" in Naoto's case.
And as for kanji, the [I]entire social link[/I] is him coming to terms with wanting to knit and sew and not being gay; he puts on his machismo front and denies his ability to make handcrafts [I]because[/I] the only possible explanation vis-a-vis other people's expectations is that he's a homo (because, in case you forgot/missed it, the midnight channel isn't the person's inner desire, but [I]what society expects it to be[/I]).
[editline]22nd December 2017[/editline]
Like, it's one thing to have your own headcanon to project whatever onto these characters; that's fine! Totally okay. But to butt heads with people over your fantastical (mis)interpretations that ignore the bare, straight facts of the character, well...[/QUOTE]
woah! i never even said that i had any specific headcanon. i accept whats written out personally even if i think the quality of the writing is questionable at times. unless you mean "you" in a more general sense of people and not directed at me. i just think that condescending dismissal is a bit much. (similar to your post probably not needing that whole last paragraph!)
i feel a lot of what the naotos shadow talks about and her decision to live and present as male and her struggle to accept her birth gender can easily be seen as signs of gender dysphoria, even if she doesn't decide to transition in the end. again, this this may not have been the intended result when written but i think thats more of culture clash issue into how its translated and read into in english. i have no issues with the whole self acceptance arc, but i feel its a lot of wa.sted symbolism and story potential. personal opinion!
[editline]23rd December 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Gray Altoid;52999403]the midnight channel isn't the person's inner desire, but [I]what society expects it to be[/I]).
[/QUOTE]
with kanji i also think this makes it weird that he also says that he accepts that the self in the midnight channel is also himself then at the end of the social link, as the shadow often expressed sexual interest in men. unless that parts just meant to not be included
[QUOTE=ophelia;52999446]woah! i never even said that i had any specific headcanon. i accept whats written out personally even if i think the quality of the writing is questionable at times. unless you mean "you" in a more general sense of people and not directed at me. i just think that condescending dismissal is a bit much. (similar to your post probably not needing that whole last paragraph!)
i feel a lot of what the naotos shadow talks about and her decision to live and present as male and her struggle to accept her birth gender can easily be seen as signs of gender dysphoria, even if she doesn't decide to transition in the end. again, this this may not have been the intended result when written but i think thats more of culture clash issue into how its translated and read into in english. i have no issues with the whole self acceptance arc, but i feel its a lot of wa.sted symbolism and story potential. personal opinion!
[/QUOTE]
Sometimes an egg can be deep and symbolic of something about life, and sometimes an egg is just an egg.
Egg is a term for trans folks who haven't realized they're trans yet. :v:
e; also it refers to eggs
[QUOTE=SpartanXC9;52998196]Hey maybe they didn't handle LGBT themes well in the previous version because Japan is an entirely different culture and sees LGBT things entirely different.
Either way I'm excited for it because I loved the first and found no flaws[/QUOTE]
Being a 'different culture' is not an excuse for prejudice.
I'm definitely not saying that Catherine is transphobic, I haven't played it enough to get to any transphobic bits, but I see this argument get tossed a lot when discussing faults about Japan and it always rubs me the wrong way.
[QUOTE=AaronM202;52999532]Sometimes an egg can be deep and symbolic of something about life, and sometimes an egg is just an egg.[/QUOTE]
very true. i just hate to see immediate dismissal of conversation because ive spoken to trans people who feel like a lot of naotos arc was a "cop out". i feel like the first post i replied to almost felt like it was insulting anyone who even considered it
Japan has the damn internet too, it annoys me to see them get a free pass when it comes to being ignorant of trans topics.
[QUOTE=Tetsmega;52998587][img]https://i.imgur.com/0OLeurF.jpg[/img]
:thinking:[/QUOTE]
Tbh after all this time I really question this image because no one takes the cod community seriously, not even the cod community itself.
that and I'm pretty sure most people joined it ironically, or at least never intended an actual real boycott. Less than 1000 people is crazy minor, no one was ever going to listen to them, and even then ten times that may not have even done anything.
[editline]23rd December 2017[/editline]
Times have also changed. The BF2 boycott for example worked really well. I'm sure you could find many BF1 lovers that didn't buy BF2 as well, which, boom, there are your folks that love the series but hate the mess it makes.
ugh... this is so f*cking problematic like YIKES!
This is the worst thread of 2017, you guys were closing in on the deadline but low and behold, you did it! Proud of each of you.
[QUOTE=Man in the Moon;52999679]This is the worst thread of 2017, you guys were closing in on the deadline but low and behold, you did it! Proud of each of you.[/QUOTE]
thanks babe [IMG]https://facepunch.com/fp/ratings/heart.png[/IMG]
This is a worse fucking trip than the Girlfriend Records Fortissimole Rap but somehow it doesn't feel like i'm on weed when i'm looking at this thread.
Atleast 2 dudes got some red text below their names. Good job lads.
[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;52998675]no, quit [I]FORCING[/I] yourself in to threads in which [I]anyone can post[/I] and is [I]free for anyone to join any discussion[/I] whenever someone talks about a [I]topic you're passionate about[/I]
you [I]FUCK[/I]
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Callout post" - Mezzokoko))[/highlight][/QUOTE]
Did mods really ban Sandman for this post because they took it at face value and the irony flew over their heads. What even.
I heard a few times about the Catherine games, looks interesting, too bad it's a sony exclusive. I don't recommend looking through the comments of the trailer, it's a big pile of transphobia.
I haven't played their games in the past but I have real doubts this can be done tastefully judging from what we saw in this trailer. The scene where he looks at her naked genitals horrified looks like it's feeding some pretty old, disgusting stereotypes and I can't blame anyone if they feel misrepresented by this or find it harmful.
And yes western culture is different from japanese culture so we see it through a different lens, but if they should be allowed to see things through their cultural frame of reference then we're as much in our right to percieve the game with out own. The whole "it's a different culture" works both ways.
[QUOTE=Vodkavia;52999789]So if a group x is portrayed in media it doesn't matter at all how it's done, even if it involves spreading misinformation used to deny those people rights?
:thinking:[/QUOTE]
So you've played through this game and know full well how the representation is handled?
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