Yes it's an argument whether Japan as a whole can handle portraying LGBT characters well, but at the same time we know next to nothing about Rin other than she may be a trans person, which leads to nothing but assumptions about her character, as well researched as they may be, they are still that.
Outright claiming if it's damaging or empowering when we know next to nothing is stupid.
[QUOTE=kilerabv;52999827]Yes it's an argument whether Japan as a whole can handle portraying LGBT characters well, but at the same time we know next to nothing about Rin other than she may be a trans person, which leads to nothing but assumptions about her character, as well researched as they may be, they are still that.
Outright claiming if it's damaging or empowering when we know next to nothing is stupid.[/QUOTE]
Go say that to every commenter of the video calling her a "trap" because of the way she's portrayed in the trailer then. Honestly I hope it's different ingame but sorry if everyone comes to the same conclusions to the pretty obvious clues, and their direct effect is immediatly visible.
[QUOTE=Vodkavia;52999802]Nice deflect, but the thread has plenty of evidence, such as the fact that the game and its narrative devices (nightmares) and it's devs, (not the in universe characters who are written to be flawed) push and run under the assumption transwomen are men.[/QUOTE]
Good thing they fucking don't and you just haven't played the game or bothered to read up on the story.
Nightmares [I]do not target men[/I]. Nightmares are not automatic. Nightmares are given to specific people by a specific character who personally knows them by name. To go into big spoilers again [sp]nightmares are given to people who, by lack of honesty or lack of commitment, are preventing children from being born by roping people who want children into relationships doomed to have none. It all happens because there's a massive cunt of a god who happens to really hate this specific aspect of life and who's willing to run a big game of natural selection. Everyone involved in the creation of the nightmares is a massive asshole and within their internal logic it fits the plot that Erica would be tormented for not telling her own partner that she can't have kids.[/sp]
To extrapolate from the plot a little [sp]the goddess whose idea it was to create those nightmares in the first place is a massive asshole who doesn't like men because they cheat, but she's known to have had several lovers whom she killed when she got tired of them, making her a hypocrite as well. It's entirely possible from this info that she may also be transphobic and told the man in charge of picking the victims of her nightmares to pull Erica in as well because she doesn't like the idea of transgender people. Since she is the antagonistic force of the story and you're supposed to actively hate her guts for wanting you dead, her ideals are evidently meant to be interpreted as wrong and/or flawed seeing as the character as a whole is supposed to be negative, hateful and a next level piece of shit.[/sp]
As for Rin, we don't know how that will play out. It's very likely Vincent will be plagued by the nightmares for the same reason [sp]subtracting himself from his responsibilities as a potential father by dating a transgirl or a crossdressing man, whichever it'll end up being instead of marrying Katherine, who wants to have a family with him[/sp] and, just like with the normal game thus far, his partner will not be affected at all. Considering the fact [sp]Catherine was a literal succubus[/sp] Rin's nature is even more puzzling.
Actually fucking go play the game or read the plot in detail before making assumptions. The story literally revolves around those concepts and does it with much greater tact than you're willing to admit
I think a lot of people are missing the forest for the trees and getting strangely upset/aggressive. In p3+4+5 and Catherine lgbt people are used as jokes, as punchlines, as a gag. You can easily google for examples. They're shoehorned in for a joke, rarely actually exploring it in the depth they explore other aspects of society. I'm not some virtue signalling, raging sjw strawman (at least I hope not :worried:) claiming atlus are all transphobic, homophobic, etc. Just saying that that I think it's a bit more than just 'some jokes' considering it's constant. And imo it sucks cause a lot of persona deconstructs shitty things with Japanese society but not this- its wasted potential. But yeah it seems like most people don't care so I can't blame them
[QUOTE=AtomicSans;52999622]Japan has the damn internet too, it annoys me to see them get a free pass when it comes to being ignorant of trans topics.[/QUOTE]
Do you think Keisuke from Shibuya goes online to see assorted american articles about transgenderism or to talk to his mates about going nanpa on some drunk girls later that night
[QUOTE=Jackald;52999998]I'm not sure i'd say Atlus makes constant transphobic jokes. Like I can't even remember any LGBT characters in Persona 3 or 5[/QUOTE]
Operation Babe Hunt. Though they were minor characters, and I can't remember if they were even given names.
[sp]I'm not even talking about the naoto stuff. Persona 3 babe hunt- the gang come across a 'Beautiful woman?' and the game makes a joke about them spotting stubble. Yosuke' weird over the top homo panic with kanji eg 'Are we gonna be safe with you?' sharing a tent with kanji, no way to back kanji up. Using guys crossdressing badly as a joke with the pageant. More stuff but I haven't played p4 in ages so I don't remember well. P5 has the predatory pedophile gay stereotypes you meet on the beach and shinjuku and lala, a okama hostess stereotype who's actually treated quite well, with just one joke (when she asks if you want to work there, you can reply 'do I have to crossdress too?') [/sp]
Also Gwoodman read my other posts, lgbt stuff isn't as completely out of the collective consciousness in Japan as you think it is. Most people don't care but yea it's the same here. Persona makes a point out of deconstructing shitty things with Japanese society and how it affects people so it's not too much to say it would be good if they were ahead of the curve on this too
[QUOTE=ophelia;52999446]woah! i never even said that i had any specific headcanon. i accept whats written out personally even if i think the quality of the writing is questionable at times. unless you mean "you" in a more general sense of people and not directed at me. i just think that condescending dismissal is a bit much. (similar to your post probably not needing that whole last paragraph!)
i feel a lot of what the naotos shadow talks about and her decision to live and present as male and her struggle to accept her birth gender can easily be seen as signs of gender dysphoria, even if she doesn't decide to transition in the end. again, this this may not have been the intended result when written but i think thats more of culture clash issue into how its translated and read into in english. i have no issues with the whole self acceptance arc, but i feel its a lot of wa.sted symbolism and story potential. personal opinion!
[editline]23rd December 2017[/editline]
with kanji i also think this makes it weird that he also says that he accepts that the self in the midnight channel is also himself then at the end of the social link, as the shadow often expressed sexual interest in men. unless that parts just meant to not be included[/QUOTE]
You do know that the Shadows aren't to be trusted and are usually lying or greatly exaggerating to get the person to reject them right?
[QUOTE=BipedalSlug;52997799]Rin being trans is the biggest nightmare this game could have showed. LGBT stuff already wasn't Atlus's forte when it was background stuff, it being a main plot point will probably be terrible. A shame, was excited for the multiplayer stuff at least.[/QUOTE]
They already had a trans person in the game
Its worth niting that Yosukes jokes at Kanjis expense was most likely going to be him pulling jokes like that to hide his own insecureties considering the fact that Yosuke has a gay romance option that was cut so late in development as to have its dialouge recorded in both Japanese and English.
[QUOTE=ophelia;52999446]woah! i never even said that i had any specific headcanon. i accept whats written out personally even if i think the quality of the writing is questionable at times. unless you mean "you" in a more general sense of people and not directed at me. i just think that condescending dismissal is a bit much. (similar to your post probably not needing that whole last paragraph!)
i feel a lot of what the naotos shadow talks about and her decision to live and present as male and her struggle to accept her birth gender can easily be seen as signs of gender dysphoria, even if she doesn't decide to transition in the end. again, this this may not have been the intended result when written but i think thats more of culture clash issue into how its translated and read into in english. i have no issues with the whole self acceptance arc, but i feel its a lot of wa.sted symbolism and story potential. personal opinion!
[editline]23rd December 2017[/editline]
with kanji i also think this makes it weird that he also says that he accepts that the self in the midnight channel is also himself then at the end of the social link, as the shadow often expressed sexual interest in men. unless that parts just meant to not be included[/QUOTE]
Shadows are greatly overexaggerated repressed feelings from the people. They are a part of them, yes, but not to the extreme they normally show.
[QUOTE=Gray Altoid;52999403]I don't know how much more direct you can get than the woman herself outright saying "female detectives aren't taken seriously and I really, really want to be a detective" in Naoto's case.
And as for kanji, the [I]entire social link[/I] is him coming to terms with wanting to knit and sew and not being gay; he puts on his machismo front and denies his ability to make handcrafts [I]because[/I] the only possible explanation vis-a-vis other people's expectations is that he's a homo (because, in case you forgot/missed it, the midnight channel isn't the person's inner desire, but [I]what society expects it to be[/I]).
[editline]22nd December 2017[/editline]
Like, it's one thing to have your own headcanon to project whatever onto these characters; that's fine! Totally okay. But to butt heads with people over your fantastical (mis)interpretations that ignore the bare, straight facts of the character, well...
[t]https://i.imgur.com/HJOyN4D.png[/t][/QUOTE]
Unfortunately all of the Spinoffs have gotten really, really bad about Kanji's sexuality, even the surprisingly accurate anime has Yosuke get really, weirdly homophobic and it gets really annoying.
[QUOTE=Vodkavia;52999789]So if a group x is portrayed in media it doesn't matter at all how it's done, even if it involves spreading misinformation used to deny those people rights?
:thinking:[/QUOTE]
Please point to me any facts about how Rin is portrayed, I'll wait
[QUOTE=Loth;52999775]I haven't played their games in the past but I have real doubts this can be done tastefully judging from what we saw in this trailer. The scene where he looks at her naked genitals horrified looks like it's feeding some pretty old, disgusting stereotypes and I can't blame anyone if they feel misrepresented by this or find it harmful.[/QUOTE]
Vincent reacts that way to literally everything out of the ordinary. His mouth gapes even harder when he finds out he cheated on his girlfriend while black out drunk.
[QUOTE=Loth;52999775]
I haven't played their games in the past but I have real doubts this can be done tastefully judging from what we saw in this trailer. The scene where he looks at her naked genitals horrified looks like it's feeding some pretty old, disgusting stereotypes and I can't blame anyone if they feel misrepresented by this or find it harmful.
[/QUOTE]
Congratulations you misconstrued that scene to fit your point of view, actually play the game before going by character reactions.
[QUOTE=ophelia;52999446]
i feel a lot of what the naotos shadow talks about and her decision to live and present as male and her struggle to accept her birth gender can easily be seen as signs of gender dysphoria, even if she doesn't decide to transition in the end. again, this this may not have been the intended result when written but i think thats more of culture clash issue into how its translated and read into in english. i have no issues with the whole self acceptance arc, but i feel its a lot of wa.sted symbolism and story potential. personal opinion!
with kanji i also think this makes it weird that he also says that he accepts that the self in the midnight channel is also himself then at the end of the social link, as the shadow often expressed sexual interest in men. unless that parts just meant to not be included[/QUOTE]
Honestly it just sounds like you had a poor grasp on the story, it's themes, and it's characters and just made shit up along the way to make sense of them.
[QUOTE=Vodkavia;52999802]Nice deflect, but the thread has plenty of evidence, such as the fact that the game and its narrative devices (nightmares) and it's devs, (not the in universe characters who are written to be flawed) push and run under the assumption transwomen are men.
Seriously, if you're going to ding me for not doing my homework, at least have the self awareness take into consideration the info that's been corroborated by both sides of the argument that's in this very thread.[/QUOTE]
And you didn't even play the game, you're taking other people's skewed opinions and shaping them to fit your argument. There's literally no concrete evidence in this thread besides how other people interpreted the stories and dialogue.
This whole thread is fucking ridiculous. Literally as bad as the HATRED thread where everyone condemned it for being a violent game despite the existance of GTA series.
[QUOTE=AtomicSans;52999622]Japan has the damn internet too, it annoys me to see them get a free pass when it comes to being ignorant of trans topics.[/QUOTE]
I dont think people are necessarily giving anything a free pass, but looking at it while remembering their own point of view is from the perspective and context of a westerner/American, and not within the context of Japanese society or making a product for Japanese audiences.
[QUOTE=Tetsmega;53000463]
This whole thread is fucking ridiculous. Literally as bad as the HATRED thread where everyone condemned it for being a violent game despite the existance of GTA series.[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't say it's on that level, yet. That had people so outraged that they were seriously arguing that when you kill people in GTA, it's a "punishment" and not intended to be fun.
Read the whole thread and my replies before talking about Japanese culture or whatever. Despite having some of their own unique views on it, understanding and not stigmatising lgbt people isn't some weird foreign concept to Japan...
I honestly didn't expect this much backlash against the idea that atlus aren't very good at writing or handling lgbt stuff despite repeatedly including it in their games. I don't get why people seem to take it as a personal affront, busybody politicking, controversial outrage or imposing western views that someone wants to criticise them for it. But whatever, I'm not trying to argue, just inform of a different point of view. I'm gonna peace out and wait to see how they handle Rin, and then reconsider my stance.
[QUOTE=AtomicSans;52999622]Japan has the damn internet too, it annoys me to see them get a free pass when it comes to being ignorant of trans topics.[/QUOTE]
I think what's more ignorant is that you believe that every country has the same view as you just because they have internet
[QUOTE=SpartanXC9;53000584]I think what's more ignorant is that you believe that every country has the same view as you just because they have internet[/QUOTE]
In this day and age, ignorance is unacceptable. Not unforgivable, but unacceptable. When you have infinite access to every aspect of humanity you do yourself and the world a disservice by refusing to educate yourself on topics that affect you.
[QUOTE=AtomicSans;53000592]In this day and age, ignorance is unacceptable. Not unforgivable, but unacceptable. When you have infinite access to every aspect of humanity you do yourself and the world a disservice by refusing to educate yourself on topics that affect you.[/QUOTE]
An infinite access to conspiracies and misinformation as well, censorship and information control, half of humanity doesn't have online access, plus not taking to factor that not every asian person can speak english, let alone read it. Claiming every person on Earth can easily educate themselves properly on controversial issues and share the same opinion as you is ironically one of the most ignorant things I've ever read. An atrocious statement to even give out when the topic is supposedly what could be simply a badly written fictional game character which is also arguable. Honestly...
:dogchill:
plus this assumes the entire population of japan speaks and reads English
its not like a majority of us are integrating into their online Japanese language communities
[editline]23rd December 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=Vodkavia;53000012]Nightmare issue aside, that post doesn’t really explain why the game refers to a trans character as male in an out of universe context, you addressed that before as a translation error, which I take as a guess at best since I’m getting the sense that neither of us could read the original Japanese.[/QUOTE]
I mean, he knows about Birdo which was also a manual only thing that was changed in localization many times iirc
[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;53000683]plus this assumes the entire population of japan speaks and reads English
its not like a majority of us are integrating into their online Japanese language communities[/QUOTE]
Dude read my posts, lgbt isn't some western issue they need to know English to learn about. The Japanese government recognises and have medical treatment for GID and NHK uses correct terminology in broadcasts and such. There's 2 trans elected officials, they have their own terminology for things like x-gender and newhalf etc... It's just still not well understood or stigmatised by a lot of the older population.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;53000652]An infinite access to conspiracies and misinformation as well, censorship and information control, half of humanity doesn't have online access, plus not taking to factor that not every asian person can speak english, let alone read it. Claiming every person on Earth can easily educate themselves properly on controversial issues and share the same opinion as you is ironically one of the most ignorant things I've ever read. An atrocious statement to even give out when the topic is supposedly what could be simply a badly written fictional game character which is also arguable. Honestly...
:dogchill:[/QUOTE]
This isn't about people sharing my opinions, it's about treating people with the respect they deserve. If you're not doing that, that's unacceptable.
[QUOTE=SpartanXC9;53000584]I think what's more ignorant is that you believe that every country has the same view as you just because they have internet[/QUOTE]
I don't agree with the whole "internet should eradicate prejudice" argument, but really it's as simple as treating other human beings with respect and not making a mockery out of them.
[QUOTE=AtomicSans;53000731]This isn't about people sharing my opinions, it's about treating people with the respect they deserve. If you're not doing that, that's unacceptable.[/QUOTE]
I mean, I agree, it's just that you're literally throwing a fit over literally nothing.
[QUOTE=AtomicSans;53000731]This isn't about people sharing my opinions, it's about treating people with the respect they deserve. If you're not doing that, that's unacceptable.[/QUOTE]
What you wrote in this post is an entirely different argument from the other, you want people being treated with respect, perhaps it would be wise to be respectful to others yourself and not call them ignorant because they don't know what you know and act like it's some sort of sin for them to not be properly informed on controversial issues.
If you're mistreating people based on incorrect information and ignorance, that's completely unacceptable and should never be an excuse at all. I haven't changed my argument.
[QUOTE=AtomicSans;53000752]If you're mistreating people based on incorrect information and ignorance, that's completely unacceptable and should never be an excuse at all. I haven't changed my argument.[/QUOTE]
If you don't know you are using incorrect information, then you can't know you're being ignorant. It's a catch-22 and the expectation you have here is ridiculous.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.