[QUOTE=haloguy234;53000755]If you don't know you are using incorrect information, then you can't know you're being ignorant. It's a catch-22 and the expectation you have here is ridiculous.[/QUOTE]
Seeking out information is literally effortless. It isn't difficult to question what you already know and it isn't an unrealistic expectation for people to self-educate every once in a damn while instead of only taking in information that they're spoonfed.
[QUOTE=AtomicSans;53000768]Seeking out information is literally effortless. It isn't difficult to question what you already know and it isn't an unrealistic expectation for people to self-educate every once in a damn while instead of only taking information that they're spoonfed.[/QUOTE]
Any information that you can get is naturally biased one way or the other. It doesn't matter where you get it from or who you hear something from. Everything is biased, and people say things as fact all the time regardless of whether or not it's actually true. "Educating yourself" on a controversial topic is a pointless effort because to the outside observer the only thing that they see are swaths of people yelling at each other. Where's the information? Where's the education in that?
[QUOTE=haloguy234;53000775]Any information that you can get is naturally biased one way or the other. It doesn't matter where you get it from or who you hear something from. Everything is biased, and people say things as fact all the time regardless of whether or not it's actually true. "Educating yourself" on a controversial topic is a pointless effort because to the outside observer the only thing that they see are swaths of people yelling at each other. Where's the information? Where's the education in that?[/QUOTE]
They can just Google the wiki jp article and read that :glare:
[url]https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/トランスジェンダー[/url]
Its not hard for a Japanese person to Google useful and correct info, it's out there
[QUOTE=haloguy234;53000775]Any information that you can get is naturally biased one way or the other. It doesn't matter where you get it from or who you hear something from. Everything is biased, and people say things as fact all the time regardless of whether or not it's actually true. "Educating yourself" on a controversial topic is a pointless effort because to the outside observer the only thing that they see are swaths of people yelling at each other. Where's the information? Where's the education in that?[/QUOTE]
It's not impossible and it isn't pointless. I self-educated myself all the way from a venomously anti-SJW retard to a much more accepting person to accepting myself and it took a long time but it didn't involve a ton of outside influence. It's just important to have an understanding of where your information is coming from in order to prevent self-imposed information control. And you need to be constantly looking at yourself as an outsider and constantly passing judgement on yourself. Scrutinizing every single action you take becomes part of the loop of your thought processes after a while.
[editline]23rd December 2017[/editline]
also there's wikipedia
[QUOTE=Jammymanrock;53000782]They can just Google the wiki jp article and read that :glare:
[URL]https://ja.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/トランスジェンダー[/URL]
Its not hard for a Japanese person to Google useful and correct info, it's out there[/QUOTE]
I guess if information consolidated by a multitude of biased sources is something that you consider a valid source, then sure.
Simply reading on Transgenders isn't going to teach anyone on how to write a fictional videogame transgender character that will be positively received to transgender gamers.
[QUOTE=haloguy234;53000790]I guess if information consolidated by a multitude of biased sources is something that you consider a valid source, then sure.[/QUOTE]
They're not writing an essay, Wikipedia is a good source for general knowledge unless you're some conspiracy nut :s:
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;53000796]Simply reading on Transgenders isn't going to teach anyone on how to write a fictional videogame transgender character that's will be positively received to transgender gamers.[/QUOTE]
Well yeah it won't tell you the intricacies or a person's point of view but then there's plenty of trans Japanese people who have written stuff that you can then look at for first hand experience and knowledge...
Good fiction is rooted in reality.
[QUOTE=Jammymanrock;53000797]They're not writing an essay, Wikipedia is a good source for general knowledge unless you're some conspiracy nut :s:[/QUOTE]
Most of the time, but theres a few articles out there with some collusion going on.
[QUOTE=haloguy234;53000790]I guess if information consolidated by a multitude of biased sources is something that you consider a valid source, then sure.[/QUOTE]
I don't think that's an accurate way to describe Wikipedia because it's not pure informational noise, it's rigidly structured with pages and pages of style guides and conventions. If there's a valid criticism of Wikipedia I could make, it's that it's astoundingly inoffensive and occasionally tries way too hard to be unbiased (which isn't inherently bad but leads to some awkwardness sometimes). Wikipedia is an incredibly good jumping-off point for practically any topic and in many cases is enough on its own to get a working knowledge of something specific.
you realize people aren't going to naturally go look into a subject they generally don't care about, and that people can't know everything, right?
[QUOTE=Lord of Boxes;53000816]you realize people aren't going to naturally go look into a subject they generally don't care about[/QUOTE]
We often don't but we should.
if you even want to call yourself an ally how about not try to make enemies and help educate people.
[editline]23rd December 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=AtomicSans;53000822]We often don't but we should.[/QUOTE]
What if i don't have the time though?
[QUOTE=Jammymanrock;53000727]Dude read my posts, lgbt isn't some western issue they need to know English to learn about. The Japanese government recognises and have medical treatment for GID and NHK uses correct terminology in broadcasts and such. There's 2 trans elected officials, they have their own terminology for things like x-gender and newhalf etc... It's just still not well understood or stigmatised by a lot of the older population.[/QUOTE]
Of course it's a concept, they use it in the damn game lol
Doesn't mean it's the same as ours. I mean shit even the majority of ours doesn't see a problem using legal names in place of identity ones in an official capacity such as courts and schools
[QUOTE=Lord of Boxes;53000816]you realize people aren't going to naturally go look into a subject they generally don't care about, and that people can't know everything, right?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but they keep including it in little bits in games :why:
[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;53000827]Of course it's a concept, they use it in the damn game lol
Doesn't mean it's the same as ours. I mean shit even the majority of ours doesn't see a problem using legal names in place of identity ones in an official capacity such as courts and schools[/QUOTE]
Except as I explained in governmental, medical and academic capacities they do have a similar understanding to us, with only a few idiosyncrasies. Japanese adding lgbt characters and concepts to things to laugh at is no different or less mean spirited than ignorant people in the West doing it
[QUOTE=Clovis;53000762]I dont know why but i feel like ive read this thread a thousand times before[/QUOTE]
You probably have
Edit:
EricA is not a punchline and there's no evidence that Rin will be
Can someone provide examples of well-written transgender characters in video games?
[QUOTE=AtomicSans;53000787]It's not impossible and it isn't pointless. I self-educated myself all the way from a venomously anti-SJW retard to a much more accepting person to accepting myself and it took a long time but it didn't involve a ton of outside influence. It's just important to have an understanding of where your information is coming from in order to prevent self-imposed information control. And you need to be constantly looking at yourself as an outsider and constantly passing judgement on yourself.[/QUOTE]
And this is the focal point of the entire argument. "Educating yourself" on a controversial subject is something that takes time. It's not a simple matter of "oh well Wikipedia says this is what that means", it's just as much a matter of communication (both externally and internally) as it is reading up on whatever it is you're trying to make sense of. If communication wasn't a necessary factor, then turning yourself from an "anti-SJW" retard to "a more accepting person" would have been a 20 minute change.
[QUOTE=Jammymanrock;53000797]Well yeah it won't tell you the intricacies or a person's point of view but then there's plenty of trans Japanese people who have written stuff that you can then look at for first hand experience and knowledge...
Good fiction is rooted in reality.[/QUOTE]
Let's be real here, if a game dev made a transgender character that went through abuse, harassment and humiliation, they would be labeled as transphobes rather than be told that they properly portrayed how awful people treat transgenders and how unfair it is to them in real life
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;53000832]Can someone provide examples of well-written transgender characters in video games?[/QUOTE]
Poison seems okay from what i'm aware of.
[editline]23rd December 2017[/editline]
I mean i dont know if i'd call Street Fighter writing well-written but.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;53000843]Let's be real here, if a game dev made a transgender character that went through abuse, harassment and humiliation, they would be labeled as transphobes rather than be told that they properly portrayed how awful people treat transgenders and how unfair it is to them in real life[/QUOTE]
If they made that character sympathetic I don't think that would really happen.
[QUOTE=AtomicSans;53000849]If they made that character sympathetic I don't think that would really happen.[/QUOTE]
Can you specify what being sympathetic means? Remember that it's in a video game setting, so most likely there's going to be enemies and battles where emotions go wild.
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;53000853]Can you specify what being sympathetic means? Remember that it's in a video game setting, so most likely there's going to be enemies and battles where emotions go wild.[/QUOTE]
Show how it might suck to be stigmatised for who you are? Persona straight up makes fun of trans, gay people etc for cheap gags, just brushing it off and never really showing the other side. I'd be 100% fine if they didn't include it in the game in the first place
What about Jun?
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;53000843]Let's be real here, if a game dev made a transgender character that went through abuse, harassment and humiliation, they would be labeled as transphobes rather than be told that they properly portrayed how awful people treat transgenders and how unfair it is to them in real life[/QUOTE]
It already happens with tv and movies like the 100
[QUOTE=Tetsmega;53000463]
This whole thread is fucking ridiculous. Literally as bad as the HATRED thread where everyone condemned it for being a violent game despite the existance of GTA series.[/QUOTE]
Funny enough HATRED turned out to be a forgettable game despite the "controversy" and people just moved on from there.
[QUOTE=Lord of Boxes;53000868]What about Jun?[/QUOTE]
P1+2 had a different writer. I honestly haven't played them, I'm only talking about 3, 4 and 5
Anyway I don't think this is as controversial or hard to do as people are making it out to be so v:v:v
I'm not complaining because of something incredibly specific, I admit that Erica is a pretty nuanced issue (but I still think it's super bad that they [sp]deadname her and put the wrong gender in supplementary material and the credits[/sp]) but just look at the fuckin' flamboyant ass middle aged gay predatory pedophile stereotypes in p5 or using a transwoman for a 'oh, they have stubble, it's a guy' gag in p3 and tell me that's gucci
[QUOTE=Domokun;53000877]Funny enough HATRED turned out to be a forgettable game despite the "controversy" and people just moved on from there.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, because psychopathically murdering people is fun as hell. It would have been controversial in the 90s, maybe.
[QUOTE=AaronM202;53000845]Poison seems okay from what i'm aware of.
[editline]23rd December 2017[/editline]
I mean i dont know if i'd call Street Fighter writing well-written but.[/QUOTE]
Wasn't poison made to be transgender solely so that it'd be more socially acceptable to hit her?
This may very well be my ignorance talking, but I'm still not sure what made [sp]Erica[/sp] an incredibly offensive character. Was it that Vincent--who is portrayed as a boorish manchild [i]literally every in-game day[/i]-- dismisses some of their attempts to display their [sp]femininity (joining women's wrestling, giving advice on how women approach romance)[/sp] in an altogether non-hostile way? Was it because [sp]Dumuzid, the antagonistic god of eugenics,[/sp] sees fit to give them nightmares for what is the absolute closest thing to a "logical" (but still wildly evil) reason to dislike a trans* person? Was it because supplementary material deadnames them? Was it because [sp]Toby regrets having sex with her, even though it's established that Toby brought it on himself for being sexually obsessed with Erica and not bothering to learn much else about her?[/sp]
[QUOTE=Rufia;53000883]Wasn't poison made to be transgender solely so that it'd be more socially acceptable to hit her?[/QUOTE]
That's a bold claim and pretty silly since there's plenty of non-trans female characters in SF that predate her
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