[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;53000891]That's a bold claim and pretty silly since there's plenty of non-trans female characters in SF that predate her[/QUOTE]
Technically she originates from Final Fight, but Roxy was also in Final Fight and she isnt trans. Its a little muddied.
Poison and Roxy are women in the JP version of Final Fight but in the US they were edited as a different male characters Billy and Syd.
Poison in Street Fighter is transgender tho.
I thought poison was changed to trans after moving to SF? I recall her not being trans in her first iteration or some such
[QUOTE=Gwoodman;53000910]Poison and Roxy are women in the JP version of Final Fight but in the US they were edited as a different male characters Billy and Syd.
Poison in Street Fighter is transgender tho.[/QUOTE]
I've read that Poison is referred to as a Newhalf in the Final Fight manual.
[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;53000891]That's a bold claim and pretty silly since there's plenty of non-trans female characters in SF that predate her[/QUOTE]
She originally appeared in Final Fight which released in 1989, the original street fighter released in 1987, but featured no women. Street Fighter II is the first Street Fighter game to include women and that came out 1991.
Both the following websites mention both her and Roxy originally being planned to be cisgender but being changed during development to transgender females, due to the suggestion that "hitting women was considered rude" in America. Although I can't find you a more concrete source that isn't in japanese.
[url]http://streetfighter.wikia.com/wiki/Poison[/url]
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poison_(Final_Fight)[/url]
Give me a little credit. I didn't just pull this out of my ass.
[QUOTE=Rufia;53000925]She originally appeared in Final Fight which released in 1989, the original street fighter released in 1987, but featured no women. Street Fighter II is the first Street Fighter game to include women and that came out 1991.
Both the following websites mention both her and Roxy originally being planned to be cisgender but being changed during development to transgender females, due to the suggestion that "hitting women was considered rude" in America. Although I can't find you a more concrete source that isn't in japanese.
[url]http://streetfighter.wikia.com/wiki/Poison[/url]
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poison_(Final_Fight)[/url]
Give me a little credit. I didn't just pull this out of my ass.[/QUOTE]
It also says an American playtester insisted this change, meaning yet again, localization
[editline]23rd December 2017[/editline]
also
[quote]While Akira Yasuda pointed out that the characters had already been made into trans women, believing this to be an acceptable compromise, Poison and Roxy were replaced with regular male punks named "Billy" and "Sid" in the English localization despite his objections.[/quote]
says pretty clearly here that they were already made trans when the guy complained, and localization ended up ultimately replacing them entirely
[QUOTE=Jammymanrock;53000879](but I still think it's super bad that they [sp]deadname her and put the wrong gender in supplementary material and the credits[/sp])[/QUOTE]
I imagine that's to preserve[sp]the reveal in the one ending. Otherwise, it wouldn't be the first time supplementary material or credits spoiled a twist.[/sp]
the citation even comes from the company itself
[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;53000946]It also says an American playtester insisted this change, meaning yet again, localization
[editline]23rd December 2017[/editline]
also
[quote]While Akira Yasuda pointed out that the characters had already been made into trans women, believing this to be an acceptable compromise, Poison and Roxy were replaced with regular male punks named "Billy" and "Sid" in the English localization despite his objections.[/quote]
says pretty clearly here that they were already made trans when the guy complained, and localization ended up ultimately replacing them entirely[/QUOTE]
[quote]Akira Yasuda pointed out that the characters [B][I]had already[/I][/B] been made into trans women[/quote]
???
Also what difference does this make either way?
Yes had already been, immediately after the localization said it should be changed due to beating women. The line is right after the guy said to change it
It makes a difference because you said they were made trans because of the fear of women beating when the fear of women beating was brought up after they were already trans characters and resulted in them being replaced with cis males
I think ultimately this entire "discussion" is idiotic because it's basically just one side repeatedly pulling increasingly more extreme mental gymnastics to justify criticizing a game there is ultimately nothing wrong with, to the point where it switched to digging menial dirt on the devs to save face and pretend there's still a point to be made.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;53001007]I think ultimately this entire "discussion" is idiotic because it's basically just one side repeatedly pulling increasingly more extreme mental gymnastics to justify criticizing a game there is ultimately nothing wrong with, to the point where it switched to digging menial dirt on the devs to save face and pretend there's still a point to be made.[/QUOTE]
That's a big chip on your shoulder. It's entirely your opinion that there's nothing wrong and evidently you've turned this into an 'us' vs 'them' instead of a discussion. I don't want to be a part of some dumb culture war argument over games. I'm sorry if I gave off that impression.
[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;53000988][B][I]Yes had already been, immediately after the localization said it should be changed due to beating women.[/I][/B] The line is right after the guy said to change it
It makes a difference because you said they were made trans because of the fear of women beating when the fear of women beating was brought up after they were already trans characters and resulted in them being replaced with cis males[/QUOTE]
Where does it say this though? You're reading that quote weirdly.
[quote]When Final Fight was ported to the Super Nintendo Entertainment System, an American playtester working for Capcom reviewed the content during the localization process with one of the Japanese designers and objected to the protagonist hitting females. While Akira Yasuda pointed out that the characters had already been made into trans women, believing this to be an acceptable compromise, Poison and Roxy were replaced with regular male punks named "Billy" and "Sid" in the English localization despite his objections.[/quote]
Japanese devs pass the game to localisation -> localisation objects to hitting women -> Japanese devs point out that they had [I]already[/I] changed Poison to a trans woman in anticipation of causing controversy in america -> American localisation unsatisfied -> Poison replaced entirely in the american release.
I mean why would localisation ask for Poison to be changed into a trans woman only to then be unsatisfied with their own suggestion? I only brought up Poison's origins because I thought questionable motivations behind her being trans was relevant to the conversation of well-written transgender characters in video games. I didn't expect this to be such a point of contention. Both articles explicitly state that they were changed to trans so as to avoid a controversy. If you have a better source I'm open to one, but I don't know why you're trying to use the sources to dispute themselves.
I don't even know what you're trying to dispute. If they were changed to trans after the localisation said it should be changed due to beating women, as you seem to be suggesting, then they would still have been made trans because of the fear of women beating - but then you go on to suggest that this somehow contradicts my original statement?
Localization didn't ask for them to be made trans, they said that hitting women isn't ok.
She was trans before localization bitched just like it says there
The idea that she was made trans because fears of misogyny is totally fabricated and the second sentence of localization commenting on it even says they were trans before the play tester commented
[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;53001138]Localization didn't ask for them to be made trans, they said that hitting women isn't ok.
She was trans before localization bitched just like it says there[/QUOTE]
Yes, though it does make it confusing to me why you would say this then:
[QUOTE]It also says an American playtester insisted this change, meaning yet again, localization[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;53001138]The idea that she was made trans because fears of misogyny is totally fabricated and the second sentence of localization commenting on it even says they were trans before the play tester commented[/QUOTE]
[quote]Poison and Roxy were originally planned to be cisgender females, but were changed [I]during development[/I] to transgender females, due to the suggestion that "hitting women was considered rude" in America and the concern that feminist groups would sue, as revealed by Yasuda in 1993's "All About Capcom Head to Head Fighting Games". When the game was ported onto the SNES in 1991, the issue was avoided altogether by replacing Poison and Roxy with two male thugs named Billy and Sid in the American release.[/quote]
They were changed during development. You were the one who brought up localisation.
Did you read the articles I posted? Are you calling the articles themselves totally fabricated? Because if you are I question why you are even using them as evidence.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;53001007]I think ultimately this entire "discussion" is idiotic because it's basically just one side repeatedly pulling increasingly more extreme mental gymnastics to justify criticizing a game there is ultimately nothing wrong with, to the point where it switched to digging menial dirt on the devs to save face and pretend there's still a point to be made.[/QUOTE]
It's not really up to you to decide whether or not there's anything wrong with these games though, is it? P5 was one of my favorite games of this generation and one of my favorite JRPGs of all time, but the way that it treated the whole red light district part really did rub me the wrong way. It's been demonstrated well enough ITT that people have issues with how Atlus handles these issues in their games, so I feel like it's a little hand-wavey to say that these issues are menial and that there's no point to be made in discussing them.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;53001007]I think ultimately this entire "discussion" is idiotic because it's basically just one side repeatedly pulling increasingly more extreme mental gymnastics to justify criticizing a game there is ultimately nothing wrong with, to the point where it switched to digging menial dirt on the devs to save face and pretend there's still a point to be made.[/QUOTE]
thats a cool cop out way of saying you literally don't want anyone to have valid criticisms, but we don't get to pick and choose what concerns other people have with your favorite games.
[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;53000955]I imagine that's to preserve[sp]the reveal in the one ending. Otherwise, it wouldn't be the first time supplementary material or credits spoiled a twist.[/sp][/QUOTE]
Wouldn't it make more sense to use [sp]her new name in that case? You don't know she's transgendered until the one ending if this thread is to be believed, so it makes more sense to credit her as Erica to preserve the surprise. If you're looking for Erica in the credits but instead you find Eric, you'd probably put two and two together and get spoiled.[/sp]
[QUOTE=Duck M.;53001187]It's not really up to you to decide whether or not there's anything wrong with these games though, is it? P5 was one of my favorite games of this generation and one of my favorite JRPGs of all time, but the way that it treated the whole red light district part really did rub me the wrong way. It's been demonstrated well enough ITT that people have issues with how Atlus handles these issues in their games, so I feel like it's a little hand-wavey to say that these issues are menial and that there's no point to be made in discussing them.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Mud;53001260]thats a cool cop out way of saying you literally don't want anyone to have valid criticisms, but we don't get to pick and choose what concerns other people have with your favorite games.[/QUOTE]
I have issues with the people who came in the thread not having played or knowing extremely little about the source material and pulling shit out their ass to make a point.
If you have played the games and you have valid criticism that's fine but the first few pages of this thread is literally a bunch of people who haven't played the game but pretend they know everything about how it treats trans characters.
That criticism of the thread wasn't even about how it then devolved into talking about [I]completely different games[/I], because I've already subtracted myself from the discussion by that point seeing how, having [I]not[/I] played those games or watch them or read up on them, I can't give good criticism at all. I think there's still something fucky with how people moved the goal post so hard they went from "Catherine has an awful representation of a trans character" to "well the devs misgendered her!" to "well the devs made other games, and in those other games they had poor representation!", but since I can't actually tell whether that's true or not, I'm not going to comment on it.
You're also allowed to have your criticisms, I'm allowed to call them mental gymnastics and irrelevant.
I honestly do believe that Atlus has a problem with LGBT representation in many of their games (the jokes in persona 5 did make me feel a lit, but it seems that any of the only valid complaints about Catherine in this thread are only related to the characters in the game being assholes and things that could have been lost in translation. This is a Catherine thread, not an Atlus thread.
I never fucking said there was nothing wrong with Atlus. How about you read my fucking post.
[editline]24th December 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=NoNameForEvil;53002424]the tone of this thread has turned fucking atrocious, and all of the vitriol is coming from the people who don't believe there's anything wrong with the games. you're [I]allowed[/I] to think the games are fine, but yours isn't the only viewpoint here.[/QUOTE]
"I'M RIGHT YOUR WRONG YOU'RE DUMB I'M SMART" is all I'm getting from this
[editline]24th December 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=NoNameForEvil;53002424]You can keep saying that the people who disagree with you just haven't played the game, as though they only disagree because they don't know the details, but people can have all of the facts and still view things differently from you.[/QUOTE]
Except they never fucking got any of the facts right.
I don't care. Pretty much everyone in this entire thread has been civil except for you , and it's just getting to me about how you're accusing people of being vehement.
[QUOTE=NoNameForEvil;53002460]i'm being civil [i]right now,[/i] dude!! i am actively seeking for the discussion to become [i]more civil[/i], and asking that people respect each others' viewpoints more![/QUOTE]
They're not "viewpoints" they're misinterpretations of the games plot. Every single post about the game being transphobic in relation to the plot has been disproven, as far as I know.
I'm also pretty sure Ganer is more or less frustrated with the amount of circular reasoning in the thread when people are repeatedly proven wrong.
[QUOTE=Lord of Boxes;53002380]I honestly do believe that Atlus has a problem with LGBT representation in many of their games (the jokes in persona 5 did make me feel a lit, but it seems that any of the only valid complaints about Catherine in this thread are only related to the characters in the game being assholes and things that could have been lost in translation. This is a Catherine thread, not an Atlus thread.[/QUOTE]
So pervy old men jokes are unacceptable now? Or is it unacceptable because they're gay?
[QUOTE=Lord of Boxes;53002468]They're not "viewpoints" they're misinterpretations of the games plot. Every single post about the game being transphobic in relation to the plot has been disproven, as far as I know.
I'm also pretty sure Ganer is more or less frustrated with the amount of circular reasoning in the thread when people are repeatedly proven wrong.[/QUOTE]
So one side has to be civil but the other side is allowed to be dickish because you can arbitrarily decide which viewpoints are valid and which aren't? The only thing thats been debunked as far as the plot being transphobic is the [sp]nightmare thing, there's still a shitload of horrible dialogue and jokes, not to mention all of the supplementary material referring to Erica as her birth name. Altus is shit at LGBT characters, if Rin is trans then this game will almost certainly be much worse for it[/sp]
i cant believe a fucking video game commands more respect than a minority group
[editline]24th December 2017[/editline]
holy shit like seriously this is actually the absurdest thing ive ever seen
[editline]24th December 2017[/editline]
fuckin super mario has more command for basic human decency and respect than some people now i guess
incredible
[QUOTE=Mud;53002901]i cant believe a fucking video game commands more respect than a minority group
[editline]24th December 2017[/editline]
holy shit like seriously this is actually the absurdest thing ive ever seen
[editline]24th December 2017[/editline]
fuckin super mario has more command for basic human decency and respect than some people now i guess
incredible[/QUOTE]
Or it could be that some people in this thread seem to just be looking for literally any excuse they can find to preemptively get mad at something that hasnt come out yet and nobody actually knows if its going to be handled well or not.
[QUOTE=AaronM202;53002912]Or it could be that some people in this thread seem to just be looking for literally any excuse they can find to preemptively get mad at something that hasnt come out yet and nobody actually knows if its going to be handled well or not.[/QUOTE]
[t]https://i.imgur.com/wVZ9XZs.png[/t]
[t]https://i.imgur.com/zKyt7Zy.png[/t]
lol
[QUOTE=Mud;53002916][t]https://i.imgur.com/wVZ9XZs.png[/t]
[t]https://i.imgur.com/zKyt7Zy.png[/t]
lol[/QUOTE]
That doesnt look like the character of discussion thats in this trailer which is a new addition to the remaster of a 6 year old game.
im putting this post in a Rolodex just to refer to it later
[editline]24th December 2017[/editline]
[QUOTE=AaronM202;53002922]That doesnt look like the character of discussion thats in this trailer which is a new addition to the remaster of a 6 year old game.[/QUOTE]
except the argument was how they poorly handled a trans character previously, thats been the subject of the argument since the last 2 pages
keep up, people generally expect you to read beyond a third grade level.
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