[QUOTE=Mud;53002923]im putting this post in a Rolodex just to refer to it later
[editline]24th December 2017[/editline]
except the argument was how they poorly handled a trans character previously, thats been the subject of the argument since the last 2 pages
keep up, people generally expect you to read beyond a third grade level.[/QUOTE]
Immediately descending into insults, okay then.
[QUOTE=AaronM202;53002932]Immediately descending into insults, okay then.[/QUOTE]
It's not an insult, I'm pointing out how you're ignoring the subject of the argument, It's not my job to mince my words for you not actually reading
[QUOTE=AaronM202;53002912]Or it could be that some people in this thread seem to just be looking for literally any excuse they can find to preemptively get mad at something that hasnt come out yet and nobody actually knows if its going to be handled well or not.[/QUOTE]
I'm not preemptively mad, I'm just managing my expectations properly based in the trainwreck that was Catherine's handling of Erica
[QUOTE=Mud;53002923]im putting this post in a Rolodex just to refer to it later
[editline]24th December 2017[/editline]
except the argument was how they poorly handled a trans character previously, thats been the subject of the argument since the last 2 pages
keep up, people generally expect you to read beyond a third grade level.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry a character who's an asshole and can't act mature isn't accepting of trans people straight away.
If Vincent was a paragon of virtue and accepted everyone straight away while dishing out compliments constantly and having everyone love him he wouldn't be an interesting character and the game wouldn't have happened
[QUOTE=SpartanXC9;53002943]I'm sorry a character who's an asshole and can't act mature isn't accepting of trans people straight away.
If Vincent was a paragon of virtue and accepted everyone straight away while dishing out compliments constantly and having everyone love him he wouldn't be an interesting character and the game wouldn't have happened[/QUOTE]
Can you acknowledge anything more than the lines from Vincent, because there's a lot more than just the lines from Vincent
Referring to a trans character in the credits with their deadname is absolutely indefensible because it's the closest link to the writer there is. It's not through the lens of a character or a situation. It's the writer unquestionably stating who a character IS.
[QUOTE=SpartanXC9;53002943]I'm sorry a character who's an asshole and can't act mature isn't accepting of trans people straight away.
If Vincent was a paragon of virtue and accepted everyone straight away while dishing out compliments constantly and having everyone love him he wouldn't be an interesting character and the game wouldn't have happened[/QUOTE]
oh cool you got one thing down that doesn't explain the deadnaming in the supplementary material, the credits and toby's entire relationship with her being played for laughs. It's reasonable to assume you have answers for that too
[QUOTE=AtomicSans;53002964]Referring to a trans character in the credits with their deadname is absolutely indefensible because it's the closest link to the writer there is. It's not through the lens of a character or a situation. It's the writer unquestionably stating who a character IS.[/QUOTE]
Maybe they did it so people who didn't understand what was going on and used the credits to explain it? The game is six years old trans stuff wasn't as big as it is now
[QUOTE=SpartanXC9;53002969]Maybe they did it so people who didn't understand what was going on and used the credits to explain it? The game is six years old trans stuff wasn't as big as it is now[/QUOTE]
Thats not a justification what the hell? Trans people have existed since forever, 6 years is Nothing at all, and come on, most people would just be confused by seeing that name in the credits
[QUOTE=SpartanXC9;53002969]Maybe they did it so people who didn't understand what was going on and used the credits to explain it? The game is six years old trans stuff wasn't as big as it is now[/QUOTE]
if the writers were progressive enough to include a trans character six years ago they should have been conscientious enough to not mistreat them through word of god.
[editline]24th December 2017[/editline]
Also, six years ago is 2011 which isn't long ago at all. Just saying.
[QUOTE=Mud;53002966]oh cool you got one thing down that doesn't explain the deadnaming in the supplementary material, the credits and toby's entire relationship with her being played for laughs. It's reasonable to assume you have answers for that too[/QUOTE]
[sp]Toby and Erica's relationship isn't played for laughs. It's suppose to show that women can also get the nightmares. If there is any humor to the relationship, it's mostly at Toby's expense obsessing over Erica in lustful ways instead of actually getting to know her first.[/sp]
I don't think[sp]Erica[/sp]was a perfect character and deadnaming her in the credits was a sucky move that I don't agree with, but as someone who as actually played Catherine, you guys are really overblowing this whole thing imo.
[QUOTE=Captain;53002985][sp]Toby and Erica's relationship isn't played for laughs. It's suppose to show that women can also get the nightmares. If there is any humor to the relationship, it's mostly at Toby's expense obsessing over Erica in lustful ways instead of actually getting to know her first.[/sp]
I don't think[sp]Erica[/sp]was a perfect character and deadnaming her in the credits was a sucky move that I don't agree with, but as someone who as actually played Catherine, you guys are really overblowing this whole thing imo.[/QUOTE]
I've played catherine too and it is absolutely played for laughs that toby is into erica despite her not being a biological female. It's the butt of a few jokes at toby's expense because the premise simply goes back to ha ha erica is trans its funny because shes not REALLY a woman and toby is gettin fooled!!!
[QUOTE=Mud;53003002]I've played catherine too and it is absolutely played for laughs that toby is into erica despite her not being a biological female. It's the butt of a few jokes at toby's expense because the premise simply goes back to ha ha erica is trans its funny because shes not REALLY a woman and toby is gettin fooled!!![/QUOTE]
It's also part of his character that he's a young, horny idiot who's into older women and who's thinking with his dick with very little regard for others, including the very same woman he's lusting after.
[sp]Erica[/sp] being trans is, in itself, not a joke or meant to be a funny part of her character. However the game is about young adults being childish and immature and not wanting to grow up and as such it makes sense they would behave this way with her - and, mind you, they are still all friends and have been friends since childhood, long before she made the decision to fully transition.
Hell I haven't even played Catherine I just find the amount of circular reasoning in this therad to be fucking unbearable.
[QUOTE=Lord of Boxes;53003099]Hell I haven't even played Catherine I just find the amount of circular reasoning in this therad to be fucking unbearable.[/QUOTE]
Why did you message me on steam and tell me I know nothing about this subject if you haven't even played the game?
[QUOTE=ZnT00;53003104]Why did you message me on steam and tell me I know nothing about this subject if you haven't even played the game?[/QUOTE]
Because I know a fair bit about it?
[editline]24th December 2017[/editline]
You guys repeatedly say that she is used for the butt of jokes but never do you guys even show evidence of it. I don't even care who's right or wrong I just want people to give some fucking reasoning.
It's really weird how one can say they haven't played the game then exert authority into the argument like they have. I don't mean it as an attack but it seems pretty flawed imo. That's all I'm gonna say honestly, this argument is becoming pointless and unproductive
[QUOTE=Kiwi;53003119]Can y’all keep it civil. I’m looking at multiple reports from multiple people on multiple posters and this turned into a right shit show.[/QUOTE]
sorry fam, topic hits a bit close to home, ill try to keep my cool together better
[QUOTE=Lord of Boxes;53003111]Because I know a fair bit about it?
[editline]24th December 2017[/editline]
You guys repeatedly say that she is used for the butt of jokes but never do you guys even show evidence of it. I don't even care who's right or wrong I just want people to give some fucking reasoning.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Mud;53002916][t]https://i.imgur.com/wVZ9XZs.png[/t]
[t]https://i.imgur.com/zKyt7Zy.png[/t]
lol[/QUOTE]
It's really bizarre to see trans people coming into the thread to voice their concerns with the treatment of trans characters and then get immediately shot down by people with far less reason to be invested in the issue
Jesus Christ I'm sorry I didn't see it.
[QUOTE=Lord of Boxes;53003133]Jesus Christ I'm sorry I didn't see it.[/QUOTE]
It's been posted several times in order to get the point across
:dogchill:
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Shitpost" - Kiwi))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=Sheepaay;53003140]:dogchill:[/QUOTE]
No thanks, not while they're misrepresenting my friends.
[QUOTE=AtomicSans;53003138]It's been posted several times in order to get the point across[/QUOTE]
[T]https://i.imgur.com/ph4FVC5.png?1[/T]
It really hasn't.
[highlight](User was banned for this post ("Threadshitting" - Kiwi))[/highlight]
something i feel people are glossing over is that Rin isn't just a joke or subplot or something irrelevant to the rest of the game/plot, they're supposed to play a major role in a mostly serious story and be given a lot more attention than usual. it could be given the respect it deserves or it could be a mess, but i think Atlus' history with the subject doesn't say much about how they'll handle it. or at least not as much people think.
[QUOTE=AtomicSans;53003152]No thanks, not while they're misrepresenting my friends.[/QUOTE]
As someone who's LGBT himself I get a fair bit of "misrepresentation" and I'm able to completely gloss over it because I guess I'm ultimately not that concerned about how a story takes sexuality which corresponds with mine and uses it for fictional characters in a fictional setting.
I have a pretty staunch feeling that people just tend to be overdramatic when it comes to this kind of stuff. It's no wonder so many devs want to play it safe in order to avoid all this kind of controversy but then at the same time they're blasted for not including any LGBT characters to begin with so it's almost kind of a lose-lose situation if you begin to listen to these sorts of drama-fueled shitstorms.
this is actually something that's been at the back of my mind for a while now
Is it transphobic to write a story where the characters are transphobic, when that behavior is representative of the attitudes of the people in the area the story is set? Is depicting behavior the same as endorsing behavior?
like I would say the deadnaming thing is bad, but it's also the sort of thing I could understand someone not realizing is bad. I don't know if you can use that to extrapolate malicious intent onto the rest of the game.
I think it could be argued that if you want representation for minority groups in storytelling, you have to accept that society's attitudes towards those minority groups are going to be present as well. If you were told a story that took place in Russia, and that story had a gay character, I think for Russian attitudes towards homosexuality to not color how people interact with that character would be jarring.
[QUOTE=Mud;53003120]It's really weird how one can say they haven't played the game then exert authority into the argument like they have. I don't mean it as an attack but it seems pretty flawed imo. That's all I'm gonna say honestly, this argument is becoming pointless and unproductive[/QUOTE]
Looking at this thread its pretty clear both sides won't agree on this particular topic, seeing this go on for 6 pages is amazing in bad way.
I really can't wait for Full Body to release and the Rin subplot to turn out to be based around Vincent realizing that neither sex nor what's "socially correct" are relevant to a good relationship and him loving Rin for who they are, and people will [I]still[/I] hate Catherine because of all the microagressions it commits against one character who is otherwise portrayed as a strong, upstanding woman.
[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;53003215]this is actually something that's been at the back of my mind for a while now
Is it transphobic to write a story where the characters are transphobic, when that behavior is representative of the attitudes of the people in the area the story is set? Is depicting behavior the same as endorsing behavior?
like I would say the deadnaming thing is bad, but it's also the sort of thing I could understand someone not realizing is bad. I don't know if you can use that to extrapolate malicious intent onto the rest of the game.
I think it could be argued that if you want representation for minority groups in storytelling, you have to accept that society's attitudes towards those minority groups are going to be present as well. If you were told a story that took place in Russia, and that story had a gay character, I think for Russian attitudes towards homosexuality to not color how people interact with that character would be jarring.[/QUOTE]
I don't think it's a simple as either 'accurate portrayal of attitudes towards minority groups' or 'no minority groups'. Accurate portrayals are good or bad based upon how they examine those attitudes. If you were to tell a story that took place in Russia and a gay character was treated badly as a result of those Russian attitudes you could go on to either criticise that treatment within the context of the narrative or treat it as acceptable. One is healthy, the other is not.
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