• TEACH THEM NOT TO RAPE!
    299 replies, posted
I think that "teaching men not to rape" is an oversimplification. I think it's pretty important that rape in all cases is way more clearly defined to both men and women especially at highschool age. I know of kids who have felt entitled to sex with a drunk girl and in fact me and my girlfriend had to pull our friend away from one of those types of a guys at a party just recently. I think the kicker in the whole thing is the guy thought what he was doing was perfectly okay. That being said I don't think that there is anything wrong with a woman wanting to defend herself, but I think that should not be in the cross hairs of defeating the problem. As stated earlier in the thread we should try and combat the economic and educational conditions that lead to things like date rape and the sort firstly. Any residual rape cases at that point I fear are the kind that can only be prevented by self defense which is a shame but also reality.
[QUOTE=thisispain;42311677]i think its a very clear statement i dont understand what a justification is and how it differs from the cause but the cause has nothing to do with "sexual desire" even historically, rape comes from social attitudes and conceptions towards women. you can be sexually unattractive and still be just as likely to be raped.[/QUOTE] the fact that you think sexual desire toward the victim does not play a prominent role in rape is astounding what other motivation would one have for rape? rape is the act of forced sexual intercourse, and sexual desire is a desire for sexual intercourse... i highly [I]HIGHLY[/I] doubt that many rapists' thought processes consist of "wow i'm going to teach this lady a lesson/force her submissiveness/exhibit my power and control over her" granted, i don't doubt that some rapes are a result of this mentality, but i think it is much more likely that the majority of rapists instead choose victims which they find attractive, or are attracted to in one way or another
[QUOTE=thisispain;42311677] there are many societies where rape gets you a death sentence yet is far more prominent as a crime.[/QUOTE] those are the very same societies where committing any crime carries a very, very harsh sentence. therefore rape can be treated equally as bad as theft or adultery or blasphemy, which carry equal sentences. the sentence may seem harsh to you, a westerner, but relative to the sentences which other crimes in their countries carry, they are about equal in severity, which, obviously, does not treat rape as something worse or cast an especially negative light upon it. [editline]26th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=PelPix123;42311723] That's actually exactly what they think.[/QUOTE] i concede to the fact that [I]some[/I] of them think that, but the video clearly explains that in the majority of rapes wherein the rapist is familiar with the victim, sexual desire is their primary motivation for committing the act, and their familiarity with the victim is used as justification [editline]26th September 2013[/editline] starting at 4:17ish
[QUOTE=PelPix123;42311740]Have you ever considered that maybe they are familiar with the victim and it's STILL a crime of dominance?[/QUOTE] yes, but i've also considered the fact that its much less likely to be an act or display of dominance when familiarity is factored in
[QUOTE=OrkO;42311713]the fact that you think sexual desire toward the victim does not play a prominent role in rape is astounding what other motivation would one have for rape? rape is the act of forced sexual intercourse, and sexual desire is a desire for sexual intercourse...[/QUOTE] The more traditional understanding of rape, forced intercourse with a conscious victim has always been more about holding power over their victim. Interviews with rapists and historical accounts have proven as much. With the prevalence of date rape drugs and other such things some more cases might actually be about attraction. But tell me. Have you ever felt the desire to rape someone just because you're attracted to them? No? There will always be the factor of lording over someone and dominance.
[QUOTE=PelPix123;42311740]Have you ever considered that maybe they are familiar with the victim and it's STILL a crime of dominance? Why, in your mind and the OP video's, does the motive suddenly have to change when the rapist is close to the victim? Can't they be close to the victim and still be an asshole?[/QUOTE] i'm not saying it can't, i'm speaking with regards to probability
[QUOTE=PelPix123;42311711]That's all the video in the OP is arguing. He never actually goes after women's appearances. He actually says it's unrelated.[/QUOTE] ... i was responding to someone else
[QUOTE=Winters;42311748]The more traditional understanding of rape, forced intercourse with a conscious victim has always been more about holding power over their victim. Interviews with rapists and historical accounts have proven as much. With the prevalence of date rape drugs and other such things some more cases might actually be about attraction. But tell me. Have you ever felt the desire to rape someone just because you're attracted to them? No? There will always be the factor of lording over someone and dominance.[/QUOTE] well, i've never felt the desire to rape someone in general, so i think that's kind of a loaded no-answer question
[QUOTE=OrkO;42311758]well, i've never felt the desire to rape someone in general, so i think that's kind of a loaded no-answer question[/QUOTE] precisely. Don't you think if it was simply a matter of attraction it would be far more of a epidemic than it already is? There is far more to the rapist mentality than finding someone attractive.
[QUOTE=OrkO;42311713]the fact that you think sexual desire toward the victim does not play a prominent role in rape is astounding[/QUOTE] huh?? i didnt think this up by myself research has long discovered that sexual desire is never a factor in rape, its sexual dynamics and attitudes toward women [QUOTE=OrkO;42311713]i highly [I]HIGHLY[/I] doubt that many rapists' thought processes consist of "wow i'm going to teach this lady a lesson/force her submissiveness/exhibit my power and control over her" [/QUOTE] thats exactly what they think [editline]25th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=PelPix123;42311759]oh ok i am an idiot it is midnight [/QUOTE] >:( just cuz its midnight doesnt mean you should say i dont care about women defending themselves
[QUOTE=PelPix123;42311759]oh ok i am an idiot it is midnight [editline]26th September 2013[/editline] Not really. What makes you think that being close to someone decreases the probability that they want to show dominance? Why the sudden decrease on account of familiarity? You're making a base assumption and not supporting it.[/QUOTE] to you guys who are trying to refute this, i quote [B]LITERALLY word for word[/B] from the video "from what i've read on the subject of rape, it seems to fall on a spectrum going from the traditional depictions of violent rape, which seems to be much more of a crime of violence and domination, than it is of sexual gratification- and such assaults make up a relatively small amount, rougly 10%, of the total rapes" the video itself says rapes are much more commonly caused by sexual desire please watch the video
OrkO you may want to give this page a quick read [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_sexual_violence[/url] [quote]The research on convicted rapists has found several important motivational factors in the sexual aggression of males. Those motivational factors repeatedly implicated are having anger at women and having the need to control or dominate them[/quote]
[QUOTE=Winters;42311799]OrkO you may want to give this page a quick read [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_sexual_violence[/url][/QUOTE] jesus fucking christ [quote]Sexual gratification Though anger and power are believed, by some academics, to be the primary motivation for most rapes, in 1994, Richard Felson coauthored the controversial book "Aggression and Coercive Actions: A Social-Interactionist Perspective" with James Tedeschi, a book which argues that sexual fulfillment is the motive of rapists, rather than the aggressive desire to dominate the victim.[/quote] it's a debated topic [editline]26th September 2013[/editline] honestly, i'm only using information attained (word for word I might add) from the video that this thread is actually about
[QUOTE=OrkO;42311797]to you guys who are trying to refute this, i quote [B]LITERALLY word for word[/B] from the video "from what i've read on the subject of rape, it seems to fall on a spectrum going from the traditional depictions of violent rape, which seems to be much more of a crime of violence and domination, than it is of sexual gratification- and such assaults make up a relatively small amount, rougly 10%, of the total rapes" the video itself says rapes are much more commonly caused by sexual desire please watch the video[/QUOTE] the video is wrong i dont know where he gets that number from but his rough estimate means nothing [url]https://www.d.umn.edu/~bmork/2306/readings/scullyandmarollis.htm[/url]
[QUOTE=OrkO;42311808]it's a debated topic[/QUOTE] You understand that the rest of that snippet basically says the primary study for that book is weak at best. While the rest of the page literally points in the exact opposite direction. Most topics are debated. This does not mean the party arguing against the popular opinion is in the ball field of correct. And regardless it says they're sexually aroused by the coercion which is a form of dominance in and of itself.
[QUOTE=thisispain;42311824]the video is wrong i dont know where he gets that number from but his rough estimate means nothing [url]https://www.d.umn.edu/~bmork/2306/readings/scullyandmarollis.htm[/url][/QUOTE] [quote]. Five themes run through attempts to justify their rapes: [B](1) women as seductresses[/B]; (2) women mean "yes" when they say "no"; (3) most women eventually relax and enjoy it; (4) nice girls don't get raped; and (5) guilty of a minor wrongdoing-[/quote] the very first item on the list is women as seductresses. and you're to tell me that scantily clad women resulting in the enticement sexual motivation and desire, i.e. seduction (the literal definition of seduction is "the enticement of a person to sexual intercourse") do not affect the prevalence of rape
[QUOTE=OrkO;42311845]the very first item on the list is women as seductresses. and you're to tell me that scantily clad women resulting in the enticement sexual motivation and desire, i.e. seduction (the literal definition of seduction is "the enticement of a person to sexual intercourse") do not affect the prevalence of rape[/QUOTE] attempts to justify do not equate to causation.
[QUOTE=OrkO;42311845]the very first item on the list is women as seductresses. and you're to tell me that scantily clad clothing resulting in the enticement sexual motivation and desire, i.e. seduction (the literal definition of seduction is "the enticement of a person to sexual intercourse") do not affect the prevalence of rape[/QUOTE] the context of seductresses in that sentence is "woman who says she wants sex", not "woman who dresses in a certain way". like i said, most rapes are committed against women who arent not scantily clad youre grasping at straws to prove what point? no evidence suggests there would be less rape if women dressed any differently, stop spreading this poisonous concept
[QUOTE=thisispain;42311867]the context of seductresses in that sentence is "woman who says she wants sex", not "woman who dresses in a certain way". like i said, most rapes are committed against women who arent not scantily clad youre grasping at straws to prove what point? no evidence suggests there would be less rape if women dressed any differently, stop spreading this poisonous concept[/QUOTE] a concept presented by the video, about which this thread was created... pardon me for using information from the video to further my argument to you, who apparently did not even watch the video i'm sure i could find a source to back up the argument that rapes are motivated by sexual desire as well
[QUOTE=OrkO;42311889] i'm sure i could find a source to back up the argument that rapes are motivated by sexual desire as well[/QUOTE] yea but not one supported by the APA or the WHO
[QUOTE=PelPix123;42311902]Videos are discussion topics, not sources. You are trying to say that rape is sex-motivated by using the fact that sex motivation is the first justification when you spent the last entire page arguing that motivation is not related to justification. All of my wat.[/QUOTE] i've never said that sex motivation is used a justification for rape, ever. i was referring to the article which said that seduction was a justification for rape
"teach them not to rape" is confusing for me because we [b]are literally told not to rape in every facet of society?[/b] rapists dont give a shit, theyre scumbags, theyre also thrown in jail and more than likely will have a very hard time as soon as other career criminals find out theyre in for rape (ie they will die or be someones bitch for the duration of their stay) but i agree with the point that making such a blanket statement such as "its not your fault" and "dont tell me what to do tell them not to rape" oversimplifies a very complex issue especially when there are ways to maximize your safety in a situation where crime, sexual and otherwise, can occur its also extremely lazy considering the ones behind the message could also be the ones supporting rape victims or those afraid of being potential rape victims by providing educational classes on safety and self defense, maybe even martial arts unless they do do that, i wouldn't be able to tell from the "tell them not to rape" signs because theyre not informational
Heh, i said the same thing in the other thread: [QUOTE=aydin690;42299318]I fuckin hate that argument. Yes, in a perfect society women would be able to wear whatever they want without attracting unwanted attention. But we don't live in a perfect world. If you're wearing skimpy cloths, then you have a higher chance of attracting the creeps, weirdos and rapists. You don't wear your expensive watch/cloths to the shitty part of city because you're going to get mugged. It's the same idea. And no, it's not slut shaming, victim blaming, rape culture, it's just common sense.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=thisispain;42311909]yea but not one supported by the APA or the WHO[/QUOTE] that's because, at least in the case of the few WHO sources i've quickly read over, they do not cite motivations for rape, but rather risk factors from an individual, relationship, community, and societal standpoint. for example, WHO cites a direct correlation between societal violence/objectification of woman and the prevalence of rapes, however, that sheds no light on the motivations for those rapes. in other words, in theory sexual desire could be a motivation for rape in a society which objectifies women just as much as a desire for domination could. [editline]26th September 2013[/editline] anyway, if you can use a university of minnesota research paper as a source, then i can use a university of iowa research paper as a source [quote]The scientific and psychological literatures have produced two prominent explanations for rape motivation1. The best known in undoubtedly the 'rape as a sexually motivated act’ explanation. In other words, rape occurs as a result of a conscious or unconscious desire for sexual contact on the part of an often socially inept perpetrator. Thus, as Matoesian (1993) suggests, until the 1980s, rape was most frequently conceptualized in terms of the ‘psychopathological model’ (Matoesian 1993). According to this model, rape is a rare and random act committed by a "small lunatic fringe" of the male population (Scully 1990), abnormal individuals suffering from sexually psychopathic diseases such as uncontrollable sexual impulses. Thus, a popular conception of rape and rapists has been that "Rape is always a symptom of some psychological dysfunction... The rapist is, in fact, a person who has serious psychological difficulties which handicap him in his relationships to other people and which he discharges, when under stress, through sexual acting out" (Groth 1979: 5-6).[/quote] [url]http://www.uiowa.edu/~grpproc/crisp/crisp.6.8.htm[/url]
[QUOTE=TheJoey;42311939]but i agree with the point that making such a blanket statement such as "its not your fault" and "dont tell me what to do tell them not to rape" oversimplifies a very complex issue especially when there are ways to maximize your safety in a situation where crime, sexual and otherwise, can occur[/QUOTE] Do I really have to worry if my clothing is 'sexually provocative' or not? Why should I overthink my wardrobe?
I honestly don't have a fully formed opinion on this. On the one hand, it does make sense that you should take precautions because we don't live in a perfect world. On the other hand, you should be able to do whatever you want with how you dress and move around. The two end up clashing together and I don't see a possible solution beyond us, as a society, getting better at identifying and persecuting rape cases.
[QUOTE=Ownederd;42312095]Do I really have to worry if my clothing is 'sexually provocative' or not? Why should I overthink my wardrobe?[/QUOTE] Well. It really does depend, honestly, on what are you going to do. Because it's not ordinary man that just takes a walk, and then sees someone wearing clothes he deems "provocative" and suddenly he's a rapist. Rapist is already a criminal down to his mental state. Just like a person who beats you up to take your expensive watches. Ideally, no one should overthink manners of one's behavior, wardrobe choices etc. But it's not an ideal world. And "teaching men not to rape" won't fix it, as murder has been looked down upon and punished by society since the dawn of times, and yet - it's still there. Which is the point of the video.
[QUOTE=Ownederd;42312095]Do I really have to worry if my clothing is 'sexually provocative' or not? Why should I overthink my wardrobe?[/QUOTE] It's one of the first ideas in the video. Why should I lock my house? There are bad people out there in the streets who are up to no good. If I lock my house, I may still get robbed yeah, but it's a precaution I take to avoid thieves. If I don't lock it, I may not get robbed at all, but if someone were to rob me, it would be easier for him. A girl may get raped no matter what clothes she uses, but wearing "provocative" clothes may call the attention of a rapist that could possibly had ignored her if she was wearing other stuff. Was it her fault? NO. Did she deserve it? NO!. The rapist should go to jail like all other criminals, end of story. But she could have avoided it. MAYBE. We don't know. Like I may avoid getting my house robbed if I lock it. It's just precautions. You may wear whatever you like. But there are evil people in the world, it's a fact, and they don't give a shit what you do or don't. You may get attacked whatever you do, but you could TRY avoding it by taking some precautions depending of the situation you are in. Driving through a bad neighborhood with your new and expensive car is a bad idea for example. Maybe someone robs you, or maybe you get out safe, but you are RISING your chances of getting robbed by doing that, because you are drawing their attention. Also, "teach them not to rape". They are joking right? I'm not a fucking rapist so I don't need to hear this shit. Why tell this to "normal" people?. And good job telling that to actual rapists, like they will give a damn.
[QUOTE=Swilly;42312134]I honestly don't have a fully formed opinion on this. On the one hand, it does make sense that you should take precautions because we don't live in a perfect world. On the other hand, you should be able to do whatever you want with how you dress and move around. The two end up clashing together and I don't see a possible solution beyond us, as a society, getting better at identifying and persecuting rape cases.[/QUOTE] That's why there are freedoms to dress however in many countries; just know if you do choose to dress in a unorthodox way, you're increasing your risk. It's like saying that we have freedom of speech, but some words will increase your risk of being beaten up, arrested, or just generally hated. I think a lot of people missed the point of this video; in no way did he say to stop teaching young men not to rape, he just said that women also need to take extra precautions because no matter how much you teach a population, there will always be nutjobs and scumbags.
[QUOTE=OrkO;42311889]a concept presented by the video, about which this thread was created... pardon me for using information from the video to further my argument to you, who apparently did not even watch the video i'm sure i could find a source to back up the argument that rapes are motivated by sexual desire as well[/QUOTE] they could be "motivated" by sexual desire, but they are ultimately caused by people who view women as objects rather than people. basically the sovereignty of a woman over her own body is superseded by someone who doesn't acknowledge that sovereignty. if you acknowledge a woman has a right to choose who she has sex with, your sexual desire alone wouldn't make rape a conceivable choice. [editline]26th September 2013[/editline] and that is only applicable in cases where sexual desire forms a motivation for the rape. a lot of rapes are done purely to exercise power and control over another person similar to any(other?) form of torture.
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