• TEACH THEM NOT TO RAPE!
    299 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Fourm Shark;42312368]In a perfect world, yes. But this isn't a perfect world, and not everyone's minds work the same. Even if socially, women were views as complete equal with men, rape because of sexual desire would still happen, albeit not as much, but still in similar numbers.[/QUOTE] no rape is not a conceivable action taken unless the rapist believes their sexual desire overrides a woman's right to her body.
[QUOTE=gudman;42312181]Well. It really does depend, honestly, on what are you going to do. Because it's not ordinary man that just takes a walk, and then sees someone wearing clothes he deems "provocative" and suddenly he's a rapist. Rapist is already a criminal down to his mental state. Just like a person who beats you up to take your expensive watches. Ideally, no one should overthink manners of one's behavior, wardrobe choices etc. But it's not an ideal world. And "teaching men not to rape" won't fix it, as murder has been looked down upon and punished by society since the dawn of times, and yet - it's still there. Which is the point of the video.[/QUOTE] the whole "teaching men not to rape" is kind of a misnomer that is spread to by people like thunderf00t. while that is part of it, it is usually more about defining what is rape. because a lot of how rape culture exists is because some people consider certain things to not be rape. for example some people believe that if a women who is scantily dressed gets forced into sex than it wasn't rape. essentially everyone knows and says rape is wrong, but they don't always think certain things are rape, when they are rape.
[QUOTE=Fourm Shark;42312368] We as a society should be trying to promote complete gender equality. But women should still minimize their risk as they deem necessary, such as a wealthy man should avoid walking around at night.[/QUOTE] nobody is arguing against that really and there are in fact classes at universities and colleges around the country that help instruct women how to minimize risk. feminist groups regularly hold self-defense classes for women to help them minimize their risk of being victimized. but it isn't risk minimization when you tell a victim "you shouldn't have been wearing this", or "you shouldn't have been walking alone in that alley". risk minimization happens BEFORE victimization with the purpose to empower, victim blaming occurs AFTER victimization with the purpose of "i told you so" or further victimization.
[QUOTE=Fourm Shark;42312446]But still, we should provide that advice even to rape victims. It would help them minimize their chances of being targeted in the future, even if it is seen as "victim blaming." There is a blurred line there. At what point does it turn from advice to blaming? ie: you can do this to help, you could do this to help, you should do this, you should've done this. Sorry if that is a little vague. It really depends on the context and tone of the advice. Even if some people might take it as victim blaming, information on limiting risk should still be provided to all.[/QUOTE] but the advice isn't going to be considerably helpful after an attack, and it doesn't do much except further victimize someone who has already been victimized.
[QUOTE=Fourm Shark;42312476]I don't agree. I believe the advice would be helpful. It should be presented in an appropriate manner. Someone who has been a victim of rape would likely want to take steps to prevent that from happening again, a good way to do this is to tell them how they can do it without blaming them for the rape. I really don't want to have to use the analogy of a burglar, but I will. When someone gets their house burglarized, you don't tell the victim they should have bought heavier locks and it wouldn't have happened, you tell them if they buy heavier locks they can help prevent it from happening again.[/QUOTE] or you can not tell them at all and instruct them if they willingly come forward asking for advice.
[QUOTE=Fourm Shark;42312577]That works to. But you should treat it as a general knowledge kind of thing with everyone. People know not to completely trust strangers because it could be dangerous. People should know how to minimize their risk.[/QUOTE] Except that advice you specifically said isn't very strong advice, since most rape is done by someone the victim knows. That is really the problem about most of the advice that people offer up about rape, they tend to be not really relevant.
[QUOTE=Ownederd;42312095]Do I really have to worry if my clothing is 'sexually provocative' or not? Why should I overthink my wardrobe?[/QUOTE] no because its not about wearing a short skirt. again over-simplifying a heavily multi-layered issue that basically comes down to: rapists are going to attempt rape no matter what youre wearing the statement "tell them not to rape" implies that we're not telling people not to rape as if we're totally okay with it and shift all the blame on the victims and none of the blame on the rapists when that was never the case
[QUOTE=Valnar;42312392]the whole "teaching men not to rape" is kind of a misnomer that is spread to by people like thunderf00t. while that is part of it, it is usually more about defining what is rape. because a lot of how rape culture exists is because some people consider certain things to not be rape. for example some people believe that if a women who is scantily dressed gets forced into sex than it wasn't rape. essentially everyone knows and says rape is wrong, but they don't always think certain things are rape, when they are rape.[/QUOTE] While they may not consider something necessarily "rape" by definition, doesn't mean they would do it. A lot of people don't consider fucking shitfaced body rape*, but they understand that it is wrong and would never do it themselves. Again, the video (and I agree with that) doesn't argue against the concept of "teaching that rape is bad". Thing is, such social concept doesn't deny that you have to minimise the risk of violence against you by taking some precautions, which (such denial) is implied by a slogan "Don't tell [b]me[/b] what to wear, [b]tell[/b] them not to rape". That goes beside the point that this slogan is worded poorly (I suspect, on purpose, to spark some controvercy and attract more attention to the issue) and implies that men are naturally all rapists. *I'm one of them, I think there should be more strict definitions of acts of sexual violence, "rape" being defined by aplication of physical force/violence, but while there's no stirct definition - this is indeed rape.
[QUOTE=OrkO;42310535]the problem with this is that it's complete bullshit and flat out not true[/QUOTE] [url=http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/sexist/2009/11/12/rapists-who-dont-think-theyre-rapists/]6% of college-aged males admit to have committed rape or attempting to do so, as long as you don't call it rape.[/url] That's a huge number. You won't find any other serious crime that a whole six percent of men have done. If it is being taught it isn't being taught well enough
This is nowhere near the same argument as "lock your doors at night otherwise you'll get robbed." The issue is that this is a rule that doesn't apply to both sexes, it's rather flagrant inequality that exists fundamentally because of a subset of men who don't respect women. Rape is a direct byproduct of misogyny and needs to be treated far more seriously on a community level than mugging or burglary, because of the hateful and destructive nature of the crime. [editline]26th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=code_gs;42312284]It's like saying that we have freedom of speech, but some words will increase your risk of being beaten up, arrested, or just generally hated. [/QUOTE] Yes, but if being a woman would make you FAR MORE LIKELY to be beaten up, arrested, or just generally hated for saying words that a man could say, then that in and of itself would be a huge issue, wouldn't it?
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;42312954]Rape is a direct byproduct of misogyny and needs to be treated far more seriously on a community level than mugging or burglary, because of the hateful and destructive nature of the crime. [/QUOTE] How does that dismiss the need to take precautions? From this point of view, it's nowhere diffirent from mugging or burglary, it's a crime and minimizing the risk of it happening to you is your responsibility. It goes without saying that crime should be prosecuted, of course, and that punishment should depend on severity of the crime.
Taking precautions in this context is such a cowardly and utterly submissive attitude, especially in the face of such a staggering societal issue that [I]only[/I] affects women. You're effectively telling women to back down in the face of pervasive gender-specific violence. Beyond walking around with a fucking rondel dagger, I don't see why women should be forced to take a "precaution" as sappy and useless as changing their attire just so they don't get raped; which probably won't do anything anyways. It's a copout, and it's an inherently offensive and condescending attitude.
There is this funny group of people of facepunch. You probably share some views with them, but not all of them. And then there is discussion about said views and opinions. But now some problem comes up. These people start vilifying everyone who doesn´t 100% share the same views as them. They become so focused on their viewpoints they don´t even read posts or watch videos properly. They are prejudiced. They twist and turn the viewpoints of the argument to their liking so they come out as the "winner". And this destroys any reason for discussion.
[QUOTE=gudman;42312983]How does that dismiss the need to take precautions? From this point of view, it's nowhere diffirent from mugging or burglary, it's a crime and minimizing the risk of it happening to you is your responsibility. It goes without saying that crime should be prosecuted, of course, and that punishment should depend on severity of the crime.[/QUOTE] how can you "minimize the risk" when 90% of rapes are committed by someone the person already knows? [editline]26th September 2013[/editline] Once we start placing the onus of prevention on the woman, how can she really "not make herself a target?" You can limit her behaviors and dress all you want to, but she can still be victimized, because someone else actually controls whether a crime happens. The person who decides to harass or assault a woman will do so, and whatever she was doing/saying/wearing at the time will become the excuse; the public will find a way to insist she "take responsibility" for "her part" in what happened, and it will get added to the list of things women shouldn't do if they don't want someone to assault them.
[QUOTE=Fourm Shark;42313041]You dont live in a perfect world. Taking precaution isn't cowardly nor submissive, it's smart.[/QUOTE] I've already explained why rape is not comparable to a mugging or a burglary. Buckling under societal pressure over an issue like rape is absolutely not the correct way to resolve the issue, nor is there any sign that doing so would accomplish anything anyways. Taking a submissive defense to rape... would be like running away from a war in your own country that you didn't start. Rape is a destructive and demeaning crime and taking a submissive defense to it is essentially complimenting the very underlying existence of rape.
[QUOTE=gudman;42312983]How does that dismiss the need to take precautions? From this point of view, it's nowhere diffirent from mugging or burglary, it's a crime and minimizing the risk of it happening to you is your responsibility. It goes without saying that crime should be prosecuted, of course, and that punishment should depend on severity of the crime.[/QUOTE] It's far different from mugging or burglary. Both involve you losing your personal belongings. You can replace that, you can buy new phones, keys, wallets, et cetera. Rape takes away something you can't replace. Rape takes away someone's trust, right to their own bodies that they only ever will get one piece of and control. You can't buy replacements for the things rape destroys or takes away from a person. Thus it's a far more severe crime. I would rather compare rape to murder where you stay alive. Actually, that's how Finland is going to treat child rape from now on, as a "murder in which the victim survives". The case won't go old and thus the culprit can be caught even after the 28 years which is when most crimes "go old" and cannot be blamed on you anymore.
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;42310010]excellent video, really hit the nail on the head! [editline]yes[/editline] thunderf00t yet again delivers quality, thought-provoking analysis[/QUOTE] Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.. Jus' saying.
i find it very hard to believe that being scantily dressed or conservatively dressed is a factor when it comes to rape. the whole 'i'm just giving you advice for taking precautions!' is just veiled 'this is how i think women should dress'
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;42313361]i find it very hard to believe that being scantily dressed or conservatively dressed is a factor when it comes to rape. the whole 'i'm just giving you advice for taking precautions!' is just veiled 'this is how i think women should dress'[/QUOTE] Oh so when a rich person walks through a ghetto where crime and mugging is rampant he shouldn't wear normal clothing because his friend adviced him to, simply because that means he's dressing how his friend wants rich people to dress like?
Well I dont really tell any woman what to wear at night, but I dont go around finding every rapist I can and teaching them the wrongness of rape, fuck that, that isnt my job to tell people what the law is and why somethings wrong, it isnt my issue. You solve it, im going to get a drink.
[QUOTE='[Green];42313423']Oh so when a rich person walks through a ghetto where crime and mugging is rampant he shouldn't wear normal clothing because his friend adviced him to, simply because that means he's dressing how his friend wants rich people to dress like?[/QUOTE] rape and robbery are vastly different crimes. do you think if a rapist is gonna rape somebody they really give a shit how scantily their victim is or isn't dressed?
[QUOTE=tr00per7;42313438]Well I dont really tell any woman what to wear at night, but I dont go around finding every rapist I can and teaching them the wrongness of rape, fuck that, that isnt my job to tell people what the law is and why somethings wrong, it isnt my issue. You solve it, im going to get a drink.[/QUOTE] I can't tell if you're deliberately missing the point. [QUOTE=Lachz0r;42313464]rape and robbery are vastly different crimes. do you think if a rapist is gonna rape somebody they really give a shit how scantily their victim is or isn't dressed?[/QUOTE] Yes. While sexual arousal due to some chick showing a lot of skin isn't enough to cause rape, it does paint an easier target. Someone wearing high heels and a miniskirt doesn't strike people as someone who will run away quickly or punch your nose inside of your skull.
[QUOTE='[Green];42313466']I can't tell if you're deliberately missing the point. [/QUOTE] Yes But that's the impression I think some people are given, like all those people who give these warnings are actually somehow, behind the scenes, MAKING the people rapists and its their fault that these things happen.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;42313098]I've already explained why rape is not comparable to a mugging or a burglary. Buckling under societal pressure over an issue like rape is absolutely not the correct way to resolve the issue, nor is there any sign that doing so would accomplish anything anyways. Taking a submissive defense to rape... would be like running away from a war in your own country that you didn't start. Rape is a destructive and demeaning crime and taking a submissive defense to it is essentially complimenting the very underlying existence of rape.[/QUOTE] I don't agree with the changing clothes point but why is advice like staying with a group of friends a submissive defense? In the long term hopefully societal changes can make a huge difference, but in the meantime a couple of precautions can't hurt.
[QUOTE=Shreddinger;42309981][video=youtube;1T0GcHM0s4o]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1T0GcHM0s4o[/video][/QUOTE] this is beyond measure the scummiest video i've seen in ages. if you need to spend practically half of your video claiming that you're not victim blaming, let's be real. you're [I]probably[/I] victim blaming. the basic idea that he's trying to convey - that we don't teach women to protect themselves - is ridiculous. it's done to the nth degree. the reason why the "teach men not to rape" is becoming big now is that the solution for so long has been to teach women to protect themselves without addressing the perpetrators. there's a thing called a rape schedule for a reason - i have sincere doubts that this guy has any sort of experience speaking with victims of sexual assault whatsoever. he mentions towards the end some experience with it, but either they didn't say enough or he simply didn't listen because he was too busy being a dumbass. women incorporate anti-rape measures into their daily lives, all day every day. They won't walk certain streets, some will keep their keys balled up in their fists just in case, some have pepper spray. And yet, the first question that almost every victim of sexual assault gets is something along the lines of "what did you do to facilitate it?" - were you drunk? what were you wearing? were you alone? why didn't you take this route? it's tiring. but he's arguing a counterintuitive logic. he's trying to claim that his argument is "empowering" for women - yes, grand idea, let's empower women by telling them not to walk a specific street, not to walk alone, let's empower them by saying that an assault by another human being could have been prevented if they'd just done a few things differently - that won't have negative effects at all. the guy [I]is[/I] victim blaming. pure and simple. it's really not that ridiculous that as a society we need to shift focus on the prevention of rape off of the victim and on to the perpetrator. [editline]26th September 2013[/editline] also the greatest part is that he's comparing rapists to mountain lions. which doesn't help his argument. at all.
[QUOTE=hypno-toad;42312954]This is nowhere near the same argument as "lock your doors at night otherwise you'll get robbed." The issue is that this is a rule that doesn't apply to both sexes, it's rather flagrant inequality that exists fundamentally because of a subset of men who don't respect women. [B]Rape is a direct byproduct of misogyny[/B] and needs to be treated far more seriously on a community level than mugging or burglary, because of the hateful and destructive nature of the crime. [/QUOTE] What? So when a woman rapes a man it's still misogyny? Please explain. And there are men who rape other men too. How is that misogyny?
[QUOTE=DaFreshLemon;42314032]What? So when a woman rapes a man it's still misogyny? Please explain.[/QUOTE] rape as a construct is almost universally perpetrated by males. mention of female-male rape is practically useless, tbh. hell, you could even make an argument that female rape is a byproduct of misogyny as the women who rape are seeking to assert power over a sex that historically has exerted power over them.
slaughter everyone
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;42314087]rape as a construct is almost universally perpetrated by males. mention of female-male rape is practically useless, tbh. hell, you could even make an argument that female rape is a byproduct of misogyny as the women who rape are seeking to assert power over a sex that historically has exerted power over them.[/QUOTE] That's stupid.
[QUOTE='[Green];42314161']That's stupid.[/QUOTE] the fact or the extremely obvious devils advocate
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