[QUOTE=BrickInHead;42314219]the fact or the extremely obvious devils advocate[/QUOTE]
One thing I've learned on Facepunch is that there is no limit to how stupid people can be.
You should mention you're playing devil's advocate.
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;42314087]rape as a construct is almost universally perpetrated by males.[/QUOTE]
Yes, I know that's a fact, but rape has nothing to do with being male. You can also say that thieving around the world is almost universally perpetrated by non-caucasian people, but it has nothing to do with their race. In the first case you are being sexist, in the second you are being racist.
[QUOTE]mention of female-male rape is practically useless, tbh.[/QUOTE]
Why? Women aren't immaculate. Some are criminals, killers, rapists, smugglers, etc. This is not about "MEN vs WOMEN", this is about "BAD PEOPLE vs GOOD PEOPLE". Both men and women can be criminals. And personally I'm pretty tired of people shoving down my throat "men this" "men that" "men blah blah bla". I'm not a fucking criminal, I already know rape is bad, killing is bad. I don't need to hear this. And would-be criminals and misfits don't give a shit about your feelings. It's useless to discuss this.
[QUOTE]hell, you could even make an argument that female rape is a byproduct of misogyny as the women who rape are seeking to assert power over a sex that historically has exerted power over them.[/QUOTE]
I hope you are joking.
[QUOTE]extremely obvious devils advocate[/QUOTE]
Thank god
[editline]26th September 2013[/editline]
Anyway, you didn't answer my questions. Because obviously that devil's advocate isn't true, and if it were, it would clearly be misandry. And like I said before, men rape other men too. (Not that I asked you specifically, but feel free to answer if you like)
[QUOTE=MaxOfS2D;42313073]how can you "minimize the risk" when 90% of rapes are committed by someone the person already knows?
[/QUOTE]
Whoosh.
I quite obviously was only talking about other 10%, and I'm not entirely sure about the numbers you put in there.
Plus, this video says that minimizing the risk doesn't prevent shit with 100% certainty, it states this blatantly and specifically. It only does that - minimizes the risk of [b]you personally[/b] getting raped to [b]some degree[/b]. It doesn't help saying "oh but if you try to prevent it and it fails, then you'll get blamed for your part in it" - what, does that mean you [b]shouldn't[/b] take precautions?
You really cant do anything but minimize the risks like the video said. It wouldnt affect much, maybe, but what else can you do? Everyone already knows rape is very very bad and ruins lives.
[QUOTE=DaFreshLemon;42314319]Yes, I know that's a fact, but rape has nothing to do with being male. You can also say that thieving around the world is almost universally perpetrated by non-caucasian people, but it has nothing to do with their race. In the first case you are being sexist, in the second you are being racist.
Why? Women aren't immaculate. Some are criminals, killers, rapists, smugglers, etc. This is not about "MEN vs WOMEN", this is about "BAD PEOPLE vs GOOD PEOPLE". Both men and women can be criminals. And personally I'm pretty tired of people shoving down my throat "men this" "men that" "men blah blah bla". I'm not a fucking criminal, I already know rape is bad, killing is bad. I don't need to hear this. And would-be criminals and misfits don't give a shit about your feelings. It's useless to discuss this.[/quote]
they're not comparable. there's no real causal mechanism that can be established between an individual's race and crime. however there is a direct casual mechanism for rape - men are encouraged to be powerful individuals, and to constantly assert their dominance, over other men but especially over other women.
[quote]I hope you are joking.[/QUOTE]
it's not that i'm joking, the cases of female-male rape are just so rare and i have no reference to the motivations of the individuals that i can't project that claim. it passes face validity tho
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;42314592]it's not that i'm joking, [B]the cases of female-male rape are just so rare[/B] and i have no reference to the motivations of the individuals that i can't project that claim. it passes face validity tho[/QUOTE]
got some sources to back that up?
I've always felt like the "swiper no swiping" idea only worked in a cartoon... some of the time.
Yeah as Wingz said unless you got some unbiased and objective statistics (aka no Tumblr blogs or anything similar, I shouldn't have to state why) of Female-on-Male rape being incredibly rare BrickinHead (and by the way you're wording it you make it sound as if it's as rare as false rape accusations) then no offense but you're just talking out of your ass. So in short I would like a citation on that.
[QUOTE=Fourm Shark;42314950]tbh just pointing this out, if male/female rape is misogyny, is female/male rape misandry?[/QUOTE]
*Waits for someone to say misandry doesn't exist, something about hurt male fee-fees, a fedora/neckbeard joke, you know the drill-resorting to insults rather then actually debating the point(s).*
Teach them how to masturbate, then women and men would rape less; true fact.
[QUOTE=zizzleplix;42314894]Yeah as Wingz said unless you got some unbiased and objective statistics (aka no Tumblr blogs or anything similar, I shouldn't have to state why) of Female-on-Male rape being incredibly rare BrickinHead (and by the way you're wording it you make it sound as if it's as rare as false rape accusations) then no offense but you're just talking out of your ass. So in short I would like a citation on that.[/QUOTE]
[url=http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/statistics/criminal-justice-stats/sexual-offending/sexual-offending-overview-jan-2013.pdf]I'd be glad to :)[/url] (page 32!)
i could post a load of scholarly articles about it, but those would probably just get disregarded as biased for some ideological reason.
[editline]26th September 2013[/editline]
(also most people here wouldn't be able to read them)
[QUOTE=zizzleplix;42314894]Yeah as Wingz said unless you got some unbiased and objective statistics (aka no Tumblr blogs or anything similar, I shouldn't have to state why) of Female-on-Male rape being incredibly rare BrickinHead (and by the way you're wording it you make it sound as if it's as rare as false rape accusations) then no offense but you're just talking out of your ass. So in short I would like a citation on that.[/QUOTE]
[url]http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender[/url]
[quote]The U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics (1997) stated that 91% of United States people whose rape accusations resulted in convictions against the accused were female and 9% were male. It also stated that 99% of the people convicted of and imprisoned in response to rape accusations were male, with only 1% of those convicted being female.[/quote]
My favorite thing about these discussions is that there's no real objective. It's not an argument about the best way to keep people from getting hurt, but rather who can take the moral high ground and seem better than the other person.
And that 1% of women ,carried out on either men and women. So the precentage on just men is even smaller.
wikipedia? sheesh obviously just talking out ur BUTT frikin TUMBLR FEMINIST
and what of the men too ashamed to say they were raped by a woman
Why is there so much confusion/strawmen about this?
Nobody ever deserves to be raped or asks for it. Clothing or behavior is not a justification for rape. The entire conversation about clothes and behavior is obviously directed at the rapes that happen out of lust by a stranger (not from desire to dominate) which, yes we know it's just a small % of all rapes, no reason to keep bringing that vast majority of rapes are done by someone who the victim knows. The notion of taking precautions is not to reduce number of rapes nor a solution to the problem. Failure to take precautions or defend yourself doesn't put blame on the victim. Taking precautions and "teaching men not to rape" is not mutually exclusive.
And yeah, nobody should be afraid of leaving their house open or walking down dark alleys or getting shitfaced drunk because someone might do something to them, but at the moment you will probably get hurt if you do that so, for now, take precautions.
[QUOTE=Wingz;42315391]and what of the men too ashamed to say they were raped by a woman[/QUOTE]
And what of women too ashamed to say where were raped by a man? All we have for hard numbers is convictions. It would be illogical to inject some random number to make up for your own personal idea of how many were too ashamed to accuse.
[QUOTE=Wingz;42315391]and what of the men too ashamed to say they were raped by a woman[/QUOTE]
not systematic error, women do the same thing.
[editline]26th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Raidyr;42315410]And what of women too ashamed to say where were raped by a man? All we have for hard numbers is convictions. It would be illogical to inject some random number to make up for your own personal idea of how many were too ashamed to accuse.[/QUOTE]
there actually are a couple of studies, don't remember the authors but it was titled social perceptions of victims of rape or something, and it talked about a group of about a dozen male victims of sexual assault - only one was raped by a woman, the rest were raped by other men. a couple actually reported it iirc - almost half. but then it compared it to women, and women reported it even less than men
[QUOTE=Wingz;42315391]and what of the men too ashamed to say they were raped by a woman[/QUOTE]
Well we sadly don't have those numbers and once we start assuming what they are we are arguing theoreticals.
Why is it so fucking wrong to point out that there are unreported rapes on men but such a good argument to use when it's the other way around?
And don't pretend that there's the same % of unreported rapes for men and women. Men are supposed to be the dominant ones, barely anyone takes a report of a guy getting raped by a woman seriously. Patriarchy remember?
[QUOTE=Silly Sil;42315442]Why is it so fucking wrong to point out that there are unreported rapes on men but such a good argument to use when it's the other way around?
And don't pretend that there's the same % of unreported rapes for men and women. Men are supposed to be the dominant ones, barely anyone takes a report of a guy getting raped by a woman seriously. Patriarchy remember?[/QUOTE]
I'm not goning to make assumptions about numbers that dont exist or that we dont have acess to.
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;42313992]this is beyond measure the scummiest video i've seen in ages. if you need to spend practically half of your video claiming that you're not victim blaming, let's be real. you're [I]probably[/I] victim blaming.
the basic idea that he's trying to convey - that we don't teach women to protect themselves - is ridiculous. it's done to the nth degree. the reason why the "teach men not to rape" is becoming big now is that the solution for so long has been to teach women to protect themselves without addressing the perpetrators. there's a thing called a rape schedule for a reason - i have sincere doubts that this guy has any sort of experience speaking with victims of sexual assault whatsoever. he mentions towards the end some experience with it, but either they didn't say enough or he simply didn't listen because he was too busy being a dumbass.
women incorporate anti-rape measures into their daily lives, all day every day. They won't walk certain streets, some will keep their keys balled up in their fists just in case, some have pepper spray. And yet, the first question that almost every victim of sexual assault gets is something along the lines of "what did you do to facilitate it?" - were you drunk? what were you wearing? were you alone? why didn't you take this route?
it's tiring. but he's arguing a counterintuitive logic. he's trying to claim that his argument is "empowering" for women - yes, grand idea, let's empower women by telling them not to walk a specific street, not to walk alone, let's empower them by saying that an assault by another human being could have been prevented if they'd just done a few things differently - that won't have negative effects at all.
the guy [I]is[/I] victim blaming. pure and simple. it's really not that ridiculous that as a society we need to shift focus on the prevention of rape off of the victim and on to the perpetrator.
[editline]26th September 2013[/editline]
also the greatest part is that he's comparing rapists to mountain lions. which doesn't help his argument.
at all.[/QUOTE]
This [i]is[/i] the guy which threatened to dox a transwoman, after all.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;42312789][url=http://www.washingtoncitypaper.com/blogs/sexist/2009/11/12/rapists-who-dont-think-theyre-rapists/]6% of college-aged males admit to have committed rape or attempting to do so, as long as you don't call it rape.[/url]
That's a huge number. You won't find any other serious crime that a whole six percent of men have done.
If it is being taught it isn't being taught well enough[/QUOTE]
That's an extremely low percentage to say its not being taught well enough.
[QUOTE=Swilly;42315984]That's an extremely low percentage to say its not being taught well enough.[/QUOTE]
Rapists tend to strike more than once. Don't need that many to have a lot of raping.
[QUOTE=Jeep-Eep;42315999]Rapists tend to strike more than once. Don't need that many to have a lot of raping.[/QUOTE]
We need to get better at hitting that six percent then, until then I don't think we'll make much headway in this discussion personal responsibility versus environmental situations.
[QUOTE=Winters;42315726]I'm not goning to make assumptions about numbers that dont exist or that we dont have acess to.[/QUOTE]
You're not going to make assumptions about numbers? Aren't you doing it right now by assuming that number is 0? And you and BrickInHead are the only ones talking about numbers. The other side of the argument only said that rape isn't exclusive for males. And it isn't. Don't tell me you can't be coerced to have sex by a woman. The number of those cases is irrelevant to that statement.
[QUOTE=BrickInHead;42314592]however there is a direct casual mechanism for rape - men are encouraged to be powerful individuals, and to constantly assert their dominance, over other men but especially over other women.
[/QUOTE]
Nobody ever taught me that and if they did, they completely failed. I was just saying that rape isn't inherently misogynistic. I'm not denying that SOME rapists may be misogynists and rape women just because they hate them, and not because they only want to have sex. But let's say some muggers are misogynists as well and target women especially just because of that. Is mugging misogeny? No. Neither is rape. It would be misogeny if every single fucking case was because of hatred of women.
[QUOTE=PelPix123;42316510]This is only reports. You haven't considered the fact that men are less likely to report rapes by women, because it's considered emasculating. I'd imagine less than 1-2% of female-on-male rapes get reported. I'd imagine the ratio of female to male perpetrators is about 2:3 realistically in Western society. Maybe 1:3. Still not remotely insignificant.[/QUOTE]
Another reason is it tends to be the sort with drugs or other types of coercion, rather than the stranger in alley which most of the folks in this thread seem to think about when they think rape.
[QUOTE=Winters;42315320][url]http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender[/url][/QUOTE]
Excpet in the U.S. the definition of rape was "carnal knowledge of a female forcibly and against her will." Until the Jery Sandusky case at Penn State. [url]http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/nation/story/2012-01-06/fbi-rape-definition-adds-men/52398350/1[/url] So until 2011ish it was literally impossible for men to be raped.
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