[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;42320716]
The only time id say its rape is if the person is black out drunk and not even forming sentences or passed out, but if they say yes and let you then its not fucking rape, they might regret it the next morning, and it might have been a bad decision, but its still not rape.[/QUOTE]
The thing is, if someone wouldn't consent sober but would consent drunk, you're taking advantage of a person's diminished mindset in order to have sex with them. Even if you don't believe this to be rape you can't call it anything other than sleezy and manipulative.
And since you can't know whether or not that person truly wants to have sex with you, [i]you shouldn't have sex with them.[/i] Your example mentioned "girlfriend". That's different, you already know that person's sober mindset very well. I'm talking about one-night stands.
Maybe that person really does want it. Maybe they don't. It doesn't really matter, the latter possibility should be enough for you to not want to have sex with them. This is the big failing with education when it comes to rape. Kids are taught that "no means no", when they really should be taught that anything other than an enthusiastic sincere yes means no.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;42321621]The thing is, if someone wouldn't consent sober but would consent drunk, you're taking advantage of a person's diminished mindset in order to have sex with them. Even if you don't believe this to be rape you can't call it anything other than sleezy and manipulative.
And since you can't know whether or not that person truly wants to have sex with you, [i]you shouldn't have sex with them.[/i] Your example mentioned "girlfriend". That's different, you already know that person's sober mindset very well. I'm talking about one-night stands.
Maybe that person really does want it. Maybe they don't. It doesn't really matter, the latter possibility should be enough for you to not want to have sex with them. This is the big failing with education when it comes to rape. Kids are taught that "no means no", when they really should be taught that anything other than an enthusiastic sincere yes means no.[/QUOTE]
Making bad choices while drunk is your own fault, doesnt matter if its sex or driving, it is YOUR fault.
Its only rape if they say no, never say yes, or are passed out, but if a man/women says yes while drunk and goes the whole way with it, it is NOT rape.
Sure it can end up being sleezy depending on the circumstance, but its not rape.
If you are gonna drink you are responsible.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;42321820]
Sure it can end up being sleezy depending on the circumstance, but its not rape.
If you are gonna drink you are responsible.[/QUOTE]
Sex with an intoxicated person is rape(unless you're both wasted I guess).
They can't consent since they're not in a reasonable state of mind. Like imagine a patient signing a contact while delirious with morphine.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;42321820]Making bad choices while drunk is your own fault, doesnt matter if its sex or driving, it is YOUR fault.
Its only rape if they say no, never say yes, or are passed out, but if a man/women says yes while drunk and goes the whole way with it, it is NOT rape.
Sure it can end up being sleezy depending on the circumstance, but its not rape.
If you are gonna drink you are responsible.[/QUOTE]
despite any amount of fault that lies with the manipulated, the larger fault lies always with the manipulator.
[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42321126]Wouldn't that kind of mindset basically make anything done while drunk illegal?
In which case, why not just ban alcohol?[/QUOTE]
No, it means that if someone is sober and that person is having sex with someone who is drunk, in vast majority of cases the sober person is committing rape.
[QUOTE=Rangergxi;42321842]Sex with an intoxicated person is rape(unless you're both wasted I guess).
They can't consent since they're not in a reasonable state of mind. Like imagine a patient signing a contact while delirious with morphine.[/QUOTE]
Holy shit I have never heard anything more retarded in my entire life.
Sex with someone intoxicated is not rape, forcefully fucking someone and touching them while they arent responding or are saying no/fighting is fucking rape.
Thats like saying drunk driving is okay because hey, they arent in the right state of mind when they do it right?
[QUOTE=code_gs;42321532]I think some people just assume that if a person has had any amount of alcohol or is in anyway "drunk", their judgement is instantly blurred. In reality, different amounts of alcohol affect people differently. It's personal responsibility to have self-control and not drink over one's limits. Just like Thunderf00t said, if their judgement is actually impaired, then it's their fault for drinking by their own free will. If they are drinking because of an addiction, then they need to seek help; it's still their fault for not handling the issue properly.
Also, their is a clear line between drinking by choice and being forced to drink (guy slipping drugs/alcohol in a girl's non-alcoholic drink). Yes, in many cases it is not a girl's fault if she is raped, but she also has to take responsibility if she purposely did something that increased her chance of seeking unwanted attention (sending mixed signals/drinking more than she knows she should be).
Also, like the case a few months ago where those two football players raped that one girl who was blacked-out from being drunk, what they did was wrong. She did not give consent, but she has to take a sliver of responsibility for one: drinking underage and two: drinking past her limits. Otherwise, most responsibility falls upon the rapists because she did not even give consent.[/QUOTE]
Yes but someone being forced to drink or being slipped drugs/alcohol is an entirely different matter.
We are talking about [B]adults[/B] who have legally gone to a bar/nightclub/restaurant and have legally purchased alcohol to consume.
All adults should have an understanding that drinking alcohol [I]can[/I] lead to poor decision making, violence, cancer and legal problems.
Binge drinking (that is drinking until you black out or cannot recall what has happened) means that you are drinking so much that you have put yourself into a completely dangerous state (whereby you cannot even take care of yourself).
These are the risks that alcohol brings, and people know about these things. I would never, ever become seriously drunk unless I knew that I was with people I implicitly trusted with my life to care for my safety.
Especially if you are going to a place where there are a large number of people who are willingly consuming things which will impair their decision making process and potentially make them violent (i.e. a bar or nightclub), you are putting yourself in a dangerous position.
This is no way makes someone who is seriously inebriated ripe for the picking for mugging/rape/murder, but it does bring into question exactly how much these people are responsible.
[editline]27th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Zeke129;42321621]The thing is, if someone wouldn't consent sober but would consent drunk, you're taking advantage of a person's diminished mindset in order to have sex with them. Even if you don't believe this to be rape you can't call it anything other than sleezy and manipulative.
And since you can't know whether or not that person truly wants to have sex with you, [i]you shouldn't have sex with them.[/i] Your example mentioned "girlfriend". That's different, you already know that person's sober mindset very well. I'm talking about one-night stands.
Maybe that person really does want it. Maybe they don't. It doesn't really matter, the latter possibility should be enough for you to not want to have sex with them. This is the big failing with education when it comes to rape. Kids are taught that "no means no", when they really should be taught that anything other than an enthusiastic sincere yes means no.[/QUOTE]
The problem with your thinking is that it is impossible to quantify into real life.
It is [B][U]impossible[/U][/B] to determine if someone would say no if they weren't drunk unless you're intent on waiting around 24 hours to see.
It all boils down to he said/she said (where both gender is equally as faulty).
It is also important to note that single people go to bars and night clubs to pick up.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;42322381]Holy shit I have never heard anything more retarded in my entire life.
Sex with someone intoxicated is not rape, forcefully fucking someone and touching them while they arent responding or are saying no/fighting is fucking rape.
Thats like saying drunk driving is okay because hey, they arent in the right state of mind when they do it right?[/QUOTE]
Are you dense?
In the vast majority of cases, when a sober person has sex with an intoxicated person the sober person is preying on the other person's drunkenness in order to have sex.
That is what makes it rape.
[QUOTE=Valnar;42322545]Are you dense?
In the vast majority of cases, when a sober person has sex with an intoxicated person the sober person is preying on the other person's drunkenness in order to have sex.
That is what makes it rape.[/QUOTE]
It's their fault for getting drunk. Are you saying you get a free pass if you're drunk? It's a choice to drink.
[QUOTE=Valnar;42322545]Are you dense?
In the vast majority of cases, when a sober person has sex with an intoxicated person the sober person is preying on the other person's drunkenness in order to have sex.
That is what makes it rape.[/QUOTE]
Its only rape if the person was so intoxicated they could had blacked out or had profusely said no or were drugged etc.
If someone was just mildly intoxicated and consented and then woke up the next day and regretted it, then its not rape.
[QUOTE=Dr. Gestapo;42310507]Rape is bad, but some reason we don't tell kids not to do it, or in fact discuss it at all.[/QUOTE]
I grew up under the impression that rape was one of the worst crimes you could possibly commit, and nobody took me aside and told me that I shouldn't rape.
Always thought society kind of inferred that shit. Probably varies from place to place, though. Or person to person.
[QUOTE=Valnar;42322545]Are you dense?
In the vast majority of cases, when a sober person has sex with an intoxicated person the sober person is preying on the other person's drunkenness in order to have sex.
That is what makes it rape.[/QUOTE]
Is there [I]any[/I] statistic backing that up or are we just assuming? Rate me optimistic if you want, but I'd like to think the majority of people having sex with intoxicated people (even if they're sober or near it) are [I]not[/I] predators, at least not intentionally.
Maybe it's just me, but this thread seems to have a VERY loose definition of what constitutes rape and I'm starting to wonder if we're losing sight of just how serious an accusation that is. I don't think we should be so quick to label people as rapists, especially if they don't realize they're doing it.
[QUOTE=code_gs;42322572]It's their fault for getting drunk. Are you saying you get a free pass if you're drunk? It's a choice to drink.[/QUOTE]
nah wrong it's the sober persons fault for being a creep
[editline]27th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Simplemac3;42322591]I grew up under the impression that rape was one of the worst crimes you could possibly commit, and nobody took me aside and told me that I shouldn't rape.
Always thought society kind of inferred that shit. Probably varies from place to place, though. Or person to person.[/QUOTE]
as you can see from this thread though alot of people don't seem to think taking advantage of people who aren't in the proper state of mind isn't rape whereas others think it is
[QUOTE=Valnar;42322545]Are you dense?
In the vast majority of cases, when a sober person has sex with an intoxicated person the sober person is preying on the other person's drunkenness in order to have sex.
That is what makes it rape.[/QUOTE]
I'd also like to say that in a perfect world, yes. The fact that a woman is drunk or what she wears shouldn't change anything, but it's not a perfect world. It's quite sexist and biased; welcome to the human race. You've got to have an outlook on not what things should be, but how they are. Yes. America shouldn't have multiple political parties that get nothing done except argue with one another, but instead of looking for a way to try to eradicate all but one political party, have an outlook of trying to get something done.
It's just not a perfect world and you can't have an outlook that it is.
[editline]27th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;42322662]nah wrong it's the sober persons fault for being a creep
[editline]27th September 2013[/editline]
as you can see from this thread though alot of people don't seem to think taking advantage of people who aren't in the proper state of mind isn't rape whereas others think it is[/QUOTE]
Sure, the sober person shouldn't be doing that, but will that stop him in the moment? It's again part of the risk factor; women can't expect men to be like "Oh, she's drunk so I'll just leave her alone." There are creeps out there that don't care and people should treat that as a risk when they drink.
and maybe when we start calling people out who do that as rapists they'll realize it's far worse than what they think and they'll stop doing it
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;42322662]as you can see from this thread though alot of people don't seem to think taking advantage of people who aren't in the proper state of mind isn't rape whereas others think it is[/QUOTE]
Ironically (or maybe it isn't that ironic?) this is exactly what the whole teaching not to rape idea is about.
Everyone knows that rape is wrong, but I'd be willing to bet money that most rapists don't see themselves as rapists, at least they don't when it happens, and that is what the problem is.
There are people who genuinely think that, as evidenced in this thread, that things like a sober person taking advantage of a drunken person isn't rape.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;42321820]Making bad choices while drunk is your own fault, doesnt matter if its sex or driving, it is YOUR fault.[/QUOTE]
If you commit a crime while drunk the courts will consider your diminished state of mind when deciding culpability. I'm sorry, but the law simply does not support your statement. If you drive drunk and kill someone you will not go to jail as long as you would if you went out in your car sober and purposely hit someone.
But please don't even begin to compare these two things. One is something you do to another person, one is something done to you.
[editline]27th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42322489]
The problem with your thinking is that it is impossible to quantify into real life.
It is [B][U]impossible[/U][/B] to determine if someone would say no if they weren't drunk unless you're intent on waiting around 24 hours to see.[/QUOTE]
So don't have sex with them if you don't know for sure. You should always know for sure beforehand. Any noticeable doubt should be enough for you to stop, the wishes of other people are more important than your penis for the time being. Please don't have sex with people if you're not sure.
I have gone to many clubs, and I have never seen one person not drinking any alcoholic drink. So basicly, what you are saying about sober men preying on drunken women is simply not possible.
I mean, who the hell goes into a club and not drink something alcoholic?
In german rape means Vergewaltigung, which includes the word Gewalt, which is translated to violence in english. Violence as in forceful penetration. I feel like the english definition of rape is so watered down that even touching inappropriatley on the arms is rape.
[QUOTE=zizzleplix;42314894]Yeah as Wingz said unless you got some unbiased and objective statistics (aka no Tumblr blogs or anything similar, I shouldn't have to state why) of Female-on-Male rape being incredibly rare BrickinHead (and by the way you're wording it you make it sound as if it's as rare as false rape accusations) then no offense but you're just talking out of your ass. So in short I would like a citation on that.[/QUOTE]
Wasn't there one time some man tried to rob a woman's store but she was a martial artist and locked him up for a few days as her personal sex slave?
[QUOTE=SuddenImpact;42322932]
In german rape means Vergewaltigung, which includes the word Gewalt, which is translated to violence in english. Violence as in forceful penetration. I feel like the english definition of rape is so watered down that even touching inappropriatley on the arms is rape.[/QUOTE]
Same feeling here.
In Russian it's "Изнасилование", which also includes root for "насилие", "violence". It literally means "experienced violence".
There should really be strict definitions and new terms. Because otherwise we have a problem of people not realizing that fucking barely alive body is a CRIME, because hey - it's not strictly rape, right? But at the same time, it is a crime, but it shouldn't be punished on the same level of severity as forceful sexual intercourse, first definition of a word "rape".
Holy shit, I just read my way through seven pages of Red Herrings, Straw-Men and Hyperbole alike.
[editline]27th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=code_gs;42322572]It's their fault for getting drunk. Are you saying you get a free pass if you're drunk? It's a choice to drink.[/QUOTE]
Just because someone is drunk does not mean everybody gets a free pass to rob or rape the person, for fuck's sake. You don't just instantly get to mess with a person because they're intoxicated.
You people have been talking about how bad it is to blame the victim, and then you go and drop something like that?!
[QUOTE=Zeke129;42322774]So don't have sex with them if you don't know for sure. You should always know for sure beforehand. Any noticeable doubt should be enough for you to stop, the wishes of other people are more important than your penis for the time being. Please don't have sex with people if you're not sure.[/QUOTE]
I don't know how you're implying I said that.
What I'm saying if that some mildly intoxicated person agrees to sex then that is them agreeing to sex.
If you're saying it is rape to have sex with someone just because they are mildly intoxicated then you should be out there trying to ban alcohol in the first place.
[editline]27th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=ewitwins;42323100]Just because someone is drunk does not mean everybody gets a free pass to rob or rape the person, for fuck's sake. You don't just instantly get to mess with a person because they're intoxicated.
You people have been talking about how bad it is to blame the victim, and then you go and drop something like that?![/QUOTE]
I don't think its about a free pass, its more about where the responsibility lays.
Say there was a bar that was known for having lax security and particularly dodgy people and several women had been raped there; what would you say about women who continued going there?
A crime is a crime and the person who committed the crime should be punished by law. If my stupid ass got shit faced drunk and I got mugged and my wallet/possessions stolen, I'd still call the cops, but I'd know that I was partly at fault.
I don't think the notion that people should be completely absolved of personal responsibility makes any sense--if people are going out there getting completely shit faced drunk and then get abused when that happens you really have to question how sensible that person is.
[editline]27th September 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=SuddenImpact;42322932]I have gone to many clubs, and I have never seen one person not drinking any alcoholic drink. So basicly, what you are saying about sober men preying on drunken women is simply not possible.
I mean, who the hell goes into a club and not drink something alcoholic?
In german rape means Vergewaltigung, which includes the word Gewalt, which is translated to violence in english. Violence as in forceful penetration. I feel like the english definition of rape is so watered down that even touching inappropriatley on the arms is rape.[/QUOTE]
A lot of younger people nowadays aren't heavily into drinking too, that doesn't mean they don't enjoy clubbing. Or they might just drink light alcoholic beverages which won't make them heavily intoxicated.
In some other countries its also common for people to not drink for religious reasons (although one night stands are ok somehow, don't ask me).
[QUOTE=Blind Lulu;42323610]If somebody got extremely drunk and I asked them for all their money and they gave it to me, would that be stealing?[/QUOTE]
Yes.
[QUOTE=HoodedSniper;42321820]Making bad choices while drunk is your own fault, doesnt matter if its sex or driving, it is YOUR fault.
Its only rape if they say no, never say yes, or are passed out, but if a man/women says yes while drunk and goes the whole way with it, it is NOT rape.
Sure it can end up being sleezy depending on the circumstance, but its not rape.
If you are gonna drink you are responsible.[/QUOTE]
i agree. anyone who signs a contract while heavily intoxicated should be definitely held to the terms of that contract.
[editline]27th September 2013[/editline]
oh wait no i don't that's fucking retarded!
[QUOTE=Zeke129;42322774]If you commit a crime while drunk the courts will consider your diminished state of mind when deciding culpability. I'm sorry, but the law simply does not support your statement. If you drive drunk and kill someone you will not go to jail as long as you would if you went out in your car sober and purposely hit someone.
But please don't even begin to compare these two things. One is something you do to another person, one is something done to you.[/QUOTE]
You're comparing two totally different crimes. Killing someone by accident because you're drunk/careless/whatever is homicide. Killing someone on purpose is murder or manslaughter. You can commit homicide while you're sober. You can commit murder while you're drunk. It makes no difference. Otherwise you could just reverse the situation and say that if a drunk man forcefully has sex with a woman, it's not rape because the man was drunk.
[QUOTE=Zeke129;42322774]
So don't have sex with them if you don't know for sure. You should always know for sure beforehand. Any noticeable doubt should be enough for you to stop, the wishes of other people are more important than your penis for the time being. Please don't have sex with people if you're not sure.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. While having sex with a drunk person is not necessarily rape, it can be. It's nearly impossible for you to determine that, so just don't do it.
'if a chick is drunk and you're sober, then fuck off and don't try to root her you creepy cunt. '
[QUOTE=Lachz0r;42324747]'if a chick is drunk and you're sober, then fuck off and don't try to root her you creepy cunt. '[/QUOTE]
Define drunk.
That is what the entire problem is here, it is very very difficult to define just how drunk [I]drunk[/I] actually is
[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42324866]Define drunk.
That is what the entire problem is here, it is very very difficult to define just how drunk [I]drunk[/I] actually is[/QUOTE]
If you can tell they're inebriated, it's not a good idea.
[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42324866]Define drunk.
That is what the entire problem is here, it is very very difficult to define just how drunk [I]drunk[/I] actually is[/QUOTE]
just eer on the side of caution i guess :)
[QUOTE=nigerianprince;42324866]Define drunk.
That is what the entire problem is here, it is very very difficult to define just how drunk [I]drunk[/I] actually is[/QUOTE]
there isn't a problem here.
if they are getting past tipsy then they're drunk. hell depending on how much of a lightweight they are then tipsy might be too much.
[editline]27th September 2013[/editline]
this thread is really fucking disgusting
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