Do You Believe in 'Life after Death'? - General

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42328578]I'm asking how to measure it or record it. How many joules is released upon death? Where does it go? Please explain these gaping holes. Stimuli as in, what can I do with it? Could I convert the energy from a ghost into heat and use it to boil water? That isn't science. Sentient thought is produced by neurons firing in the brain. Is there a similar mechanism for this "energy"? These are flaws in eyesight or thought processing. Do these ghosts have a physical presence? Do they emit energy? So you are saying the ghost is endothermic? If this is true, can I take ghosts and use them to make refrigerators out of? Where does this energy end up as the ghost takes energy from its surroundings? Can you actually give me a definition of energy? How does the ghost interact with the brain in this case? How does it affect the activities of brain cells? What the fuck is a spirit box? So they absorb energy and then release it in the form of light? Explain the process by which this operates. I'm ignoring ghost adventures because that isn't a scientific investigation. What causes ghosts to give shadows? Do they always have a shadow? Yes or no? You have to explain it, otherwise your theory gets thrown out of the window and ghosts remain fictional. Everything is energy or matter. Why doesn't the energy of the ghost dissipate? How does it attain agency? What happens at the boundary layer when ghost meets non-ghost? If you threw a ghost into a black hole what would happen? Will ghosts still be around at the heat death of the universe? If ghosts aren't affected by gravity, why doesn't the earth spin away from them, leaving them in space? If ghosts are the departed souls of dead people why don't we have 60 billion ghosts? Why do only humans become ghosts? At what point in humanity' evolutionary history did ghosts appear? Are there Homo erectus ghosts? Neanderthal ghosts? Why do ghosts only appear in spooky places? Why don't ghosts make contact with us more often, in a way that people can see plain as day? Can you stop dancing and answer these questions which would have to be satisfactorily answered in order to bring this new knowledge into Science?[/QUOTE] You are asking people to scientifically explain things that might or might not exist. If these things do exist and we don't know about them then probably no one can answer these questions. And no, that doesn't prove the ideas wrong. That just means it can't be resolved this way, as it is a matter of belief and will remain so until there is a way to absolutely prove one or another. Just so you are aknowledged, there are processes in the universe that do not transfer energy or matter. That's when a point of a matter wave is moving in a sin-like trajectory. The speed of that point may be over the speed of light (yes, it is possible). Why can it be over the "max" speed? Because it doesn't carry energy or matter. So, back to the topic. It seems like not everything is as simple, as you picture it. Your points and questions are right, but you are trying to measure what we call supernatural with regular measuring ways, while these ways sometimes don't apply to already natural things (quantum mechanics again). I am saying that if something can't be explained now that doesn't prove it wrong. So the questions are quite destructive, you already know that no one can answer them. [editline]28th September 2013[/editline] While I am at it, that would be really nice to get a new life or something, but this seems very improbable. I don't believe in afterlife, despite that I want to. [editline]28th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=WrathOfMe;42320852]words[/QUOTE] I can't stop thinking that you have a way too revelant name.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42328641]Where do souls come from? Are they energy or matter? How is the soul replenished? When one dies, where does it go? At what stage in evolution did we develop souls? Did they have varying complexities? What advantage does possessing a soul have?[/QUOTE] I think one theory is the soul occupies a new, more perfect body in the afterlife. Many religious folk see the body as the closest physical, material representation of the soul that you will ever get, which is why they might consider the body sacred. Surely then you might think the soul dies when the body decays, but I think its a little more complicated than that. I would say yes, death of the body is death of the soul, but I'm not entirely decided on it. The advantage of a soul is the conscious understanding of what is going on; we can process time as a linear idea, unlike animals who I doubt have any real understanding of time or the universe. Similarly we can appreciate music, art, a beautiful sunset. Everything that is superfluous when it comes to 'survival'. It would be difficult to say if we suddenly developed souls at one particular stage, depends if you believe in the whole theory of the fall from grace and also the one ancestral mother we all share.

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;42328658]You are asking people to scientifically explain things that might or might not exist.[/quote] The statement "Do ghosts exist?" is empirically verifiable. If it can be verified by empirical knowledge, then science can be conducted into the matter. [quote]If these things do exist and we don't know about them then probably no one can answer these questions. And no, that doesn't prove the ideas wrong. That just means it can't be resolved this way, as it is a matter of belief and will remain so until there is a way to absolutely prove one or another.[/quote] The default is that they don't exist. Bring evidence they exist and they will be incorporated into the body of knowledge. [quote]Just so you are aknowledged, there are processes in the universe that do not transfer energy or matter. That's when a point of a matter wave is moving in a sin-like trajectory. The speed of that point may be over the speed of light (yes, it is possible). Why can it be over the "max" speed? Because it doesn't carry energy or matter.[/quote] [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong[/url] [quote]So, back to the topic. It seems like not everything is as simple, as you picture it. Your points and questions are right, but you are trying to measure what we call supernatural with regular measuring ways, while these ways sometimes don't apply to already natural things (quantum mechanics again).[/quote] Can you reproduce the Schrodinger equation? [quote]I am saying that if something can't be explained now that doesn't prove it wrong. So the questions are quite destructive, you already know that no one can answer them.[/quote] If you're proposing something that can't be explained you need to provide an explanation of how you came to that conclusion.

I think Plato might have had a point with his cave theory. I feel like perhaps our obsession with empirical evidence as a means of understanding why we are here is a little narrow minded and simplistic. How can we be sure our senses are not lying to us, or if the truth is deliberately obscured by some supernatural force. :pwn: inb4 stay off the dope hippy

[QUOTE=jobizzle;42328732]I think one theory is the soul occupies a new, more perfect body in the afterlife. Many religious folk see the body as the closest physical, material representation of the soul that you will ever get, which is why they might consider the body sacred. Surely then you might think the soul dies when the body decays, but I think its a little more complicated than that. I would say yes, death of the body is death of the soul, but I'm not entirely decided on it.[/quote] You're just making shit up. [quote]The advantage of a soul is the conscious understanding of what is going on; we can process time as a linear idea, unlike animals who I doubt have any real understanding of time or the universe. Similarly we can appreciate music, art, a beautiful sunset. Everything that is superfluous when it comes to 'survival'.[/quote] No it isn't. I'm asking how it enabled us to become more successful. Did it increase the number of babies we had? Did it increase fertility? How many genes code for such a complex adaption? Why have humans only evolved it if it is such an advantage? If evolution only cares about what provides a massive benefit why haven't we evolved the ability to levitate or to read minds or teleport? [quote]It would be difficult to say if we suddenly developed souls at one particular stage, depends if you believe in the whole theory of the fall from grace and also the one ancestral mother we all share.[/QUOTE] What ancestral mother? How many years ago and where did it happen? Did it happen 10,000 years ago in a certain part of the world? Did we develop souls in Egypt or China 4000 years ago? When and where? [editline]27th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=jobizzle;42328760]I think Plato might have had a point with his cave theory. I feel like perhaps our obsession with empirical evidence as a means of understanding why we are here is a little narrow minded and simplistic. How can we be sure our senses are not lying to us, or if the truth is deliberately obscured by some supernatural force.[/QUOTE] If you believed this, then are you skeptical of everything? Do you flinch when a dog barks at you? You do not know that the dog will bite you, yet based on prior evidence you may assume it will. Are you sure you are even wearing clothes?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42328736]The statement "Do ghosts exist?" is empirically verifiable. If it can be verified by empirical knowledge, then science can be conducted into the matter. The default is that they don't exist. Bring evidence they exist and they will be incorporated into the body of knowledge. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Not_even_wrong[/url] Can you reproduce the Schrodinger equation? If you're proposing something that can't be explained you need to provide an explanation of how you came to that conclusion.[/QUOTE] Hey, answer me a question:"What's the purporse of life?". Go on, give me scientific details. While I, along with you, disagree with most people here stating that ghosts and souls exist, I still think you are being destructive. You should always consider there is a chance that you are wrong, shouldn't you? There actually are supernatural events in the world. And some clever guys did try to uncover their secrets. You may say it's all a freud, it's your right. But you personally can't prove them not being supernatural. Making statements based only on your view of things doesn't work, that's too subjective.

[QUOTE=Muggi;42321757]Death truly is the final frontier. I'm not religious, and I don't believe in life after death, but that's the thing isin't it? We will most likely never find a scientific way of discovering lies on the other side of the river Stygx if you will, because there is no way we can reliably test for a afterlife. However, even if it is the last great mystery, it's a mystery we will all eventually get the answer to... I'm just hoping it will be a while before I find out what death is all about.[/QUOTE] Science isn't in the business of developing and testing unfalsifiable hypotheses. Some people say that since it's unfalsifiable it could be true. I think that seems like a pretty unreliable method of building a world view consistent with reality.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42328787]You're just making shit up. No it isn't. I'm asking how it enabled us to become more successful. Did it increase the number of babies we had? Did it increase fertility? How many genes code for such a complex adaption? Why have humans only evolved it if it is such an advantage? If evolution only cares about what provides a massive benefit why haven't we evolved the ability to levitate or to read minds or teleport? What ancestral mother? How many years ago and where did it happen? Did it happen 10,000 years ago in a certain part of the world? Did we develop souls in Egypt or China 4000 years ago? When and where?[/QUOTE] I'm not making shit up, look at the biblical view of Jesus, he was God and man at once, how could he have been a physical being if the body were not some visual representation of the soul. Plus when he came from heaven to talk to the disciples he ate with them and made contact in a physical body. I'm not saying its true, but I'm not just making up mumbo jumbo from my imagination. and I admitted to it being useless for survival purposes, but that doesn't mean its a bad thing, or devolution. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve[/url]

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;42328895]Hey, answer me a question:"What's the purporse of life?". Go on, give me scientific details. While I, along with you, disagree with most people here stating that ghosts and souls exist, I still think you are being destructive. You should always consider there is a chance that you are wrong, shouldn't you? There actually are supernatural events in the world. And some clever guys did try to uncover their secrets. You may say it's all a freud, it's your right. But you personally can't prove them not being supernatural. Making statements based only on your view of things doesn't work, that's too subjective.[/QUOTE] You must realize that the supernatural by definition cannot exist unless we're talking about fiction. If ghosts and souls were real, then they would most definitely be a part of our natural world. Therefore the designation "supernatural" wouldn't make any sense.

[QUOTE=MuffinZerg;42328895]Hey, answer me a question:"What's the purporse of life?". Go on, give me scientific details.[/quote] This is a meaningless question with no relation to the topic. [quote]While I, along with you, disagree with most people here stating that ghosts and souls exist, I still think you are being destructive.[/quote] Destructive of what? [quote]You should always consider there is a chance that you are wrong, shouldn't you?[/quote] I do consider that. However, my standards rely on a single and very simple thing. Evidence. All I ask for, is empirical evidence. [quote]There actually are supernatural events in the world.[/quote] Such as? [quote]And some clever guys did try to uncover their secrets. You may say it's all a freud, it's your right. But you personally can't prove them not being supernatural. Making statements based only on your view of things doesn't work, that's too subjective.[/QUOTE] I'm not disproving them. I'm asking them to prove their theories to me. Prove it or get out.

[QUOTE=jobizzle;42328760]I think Plato might have had a point with his cave theory. I feel like perhaps our obsession with empirical evidence as a means of understanding why we are here is a little narrow minded and simplistic. How can we be sure our senses are not lying to us, or if the truth is deliberately obscured by some supernatural force. :pwn: inb4 stay off the dope hippy[/QUOTE] Science is actually the method by which we avoid making mistakes from our senses.

[QUOTE=jobizzle;42328922]I'm not making shit up, look at the biblical view of Jesus, he was God and man at once[/quote] Prove it. What is a "god"? How did this make his body physically different? [quote]how could he have been a physical being if the body were not some visual representation of the soul. Plus when he came from heaven to talk to the disciples he ate with them and made contact in a physical body.[/quote] Was he made of matter? [quote]I'm not saying its true, but I'm not just making up mumbo jumbo from my imagination.[/quote] Then give evidence. [quote]and I admitted to it being useless for survival purposes, but that doesn't mean its a bad thing, or devolution. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve[/url][/QUOTE] So is she the first "ghost"? Did she have the first soul?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42328787]You're just making shit up. No it isn't. I'm asking how it enabled us to become more successful. Did it increase the number of babies we had? Did it increase fertility? How many genes code for such a complex adaption? Why have humans only evolved it if it is such an advantage? If evolution only cares about what provides a massive benefit why haven't we evolved the ability to levitate or to read minds or teleport? What ancestral mother? How many years ago and where did it happen? Did it happen 10,000 years ago in a certain part of the world? Did we develop souls in Egypt or China 4000 years ago? When and where? [editline]27th September 2013[/editline] If you believed this, then are you skeptical of everything? Do you flinch when a dog barks at you? You do not know that the dog will bite you, yet based on prior evidence you may assume it will. Are you sure you are even wearing clothes?[/QUOTE] No, I believe there are definite laws that govern the universe, but i'm not closed minded against the idea that there might be something beyond the universe.

[QUOTE=jobizzle;42328958]No, I believe there are definite laws that govern the universe, but i'm not closed minded against the idea that there might be something beyond the universe.[/QUOTE] Then give evidence for their existence.

[QUOTE=jobizzle;42328958]No, I believe there are definite laws that govern the universe, but i'm not closed minded against the idea that there might be something beyond the universe.[/QUOTE] That's fine, but if they're beyond the universe then they should have no impact on you at any point in your existence and therefore aren't really worth thinking about.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42328957]Prove it. What is a "god"? How did this make his body physically different? Was he made of matter? Then give evidence. So is she the first "ghost"? Did she have the first soul?[/QUOTE] Are you stupid? I'm not saying 'Jesus was real' i'm saying many religious people believe he was and that they believe in the biblical account given of his existence. Leviticus (king james version) 17:11 For the life (also translatable as 'soul') of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. 17:12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.

[QUOTE=jobizzle;42329004]Are you stupid? I'm not saying 'Jesus was real' i'm saying many religious people believe he was and that they believe in the biblical account given of his existence.[/QUOTE] Okay, so what? What point are you trying to make?

[QUOTE=jobizzle;42329004]Are you stupid? I'm not saying 'Jesus was real' i'm saying many religious people believe he was and that they believe in the biblical account given of his existence. Leviticus (king james version) 17:11 For the life (also translatable as 'soul') of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. 17:12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.[/QUOTE] How does this constitute empirical evidence in favour of the existence of souls and ghosts?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42328965]Then give evidence for their existence.[/QUOTE] Existence of the universe isn't evidence enough? The first cause argument? I don't see how the universe could be eternal, nor how it could have just appeared from nothingness. [editline]27th September 2013[/editline] [QUOTE=Falubii;42329013]Okay, so what? What point are you trying to make?[/QUOTE] Literally no point. Sobotnik was just firing off questions about the soul and I was trying to give a religious perspective.

[QUOTE=jobizzle;42329025]Existence of the universe isn't evidence enough? The first cause argument? I don't see how the universe could be eternal, nor how it could have just appeared from nothingness.[/QUOTE] Please not this argument.

[QUOTE=jobizzle;42329025]Existence of the universe isn't evidence enough? The first cause argument? I don't see how the universe could be eternal, nor how it could have just appeared from nothingness.[/quote] Then what caused god? [quote]Literally no point. Sobotnik was just firing off questions about the soul and I was trying to give a religious perspective.[/QUOTE] In this subforum you have to provide proof for something.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42329059]Then what caused god? In this subforum you have to provide proof for something.[/QUOTE] What gave you the impression i'm trying to prove anything? I do not share the christian perspective on souls or god. However, I would not entirely rule out the idea of a god.

[QUOTE=jobizzle;42329096]What gave you the impression i'm trying to prove anything? I do not share the christian perspective on souls or god. However, I would not entirely rule out the idea of a god.[/QUOTE] Do you think ghosts/souls exist? Yes or no?

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42329109]Do you think ghosts/souls exist? Yes or no?[/QUOTE] I'm undecided, but i'd lean towards no.

Not everything is directly understood Sobotnik. What would you do if somebody one day provided direct proof of a strange idea like that they could predict the future directly. Or what if it happened to you directly? You had a vision which came perfectly true. Would you instantly dismiss it because you could not find a scientific reason? Isn't the point of science to find out why and how? By dismissing an idea immediately just because it does not logically fit you are closing doors to possible truths. What if every scientist immediately dismissed the idea of atoms being able to be broken down just because they could not realize so with their current technology?

If I had the experience of a ghost I would very easily deny it because there are a great deal of well evidenced theories that explain ghost experiences without needing to reify these ridiculous ghost entities. Admitting ghosts into your ontology is just completely absurd and unparsimonious when all these experiences are so easily accounted for by scientifically valid theories. I just can't get my head around why anyone could disagree.

[QUOTE=matt000024;42329389]Not everything is directly understood Sobotnik. What would you do if somebody one day provided direct proof of a strange idea like that they could predict the future directly.[/quote] For one thing this is physically impossible. You cannot predict the future with 100% accuracy whilst inside the universe. [quote]Or what if it happened to you directly? You had a vision which came perfectly true. Would you instantly dismiss it because you could not find a scientific reason?[/quote] I'd test it in experimentation. I'd try and falsify it, and if it survives the whole rigor of experimentation, I come to the conclusion that it is probably true. [quote]Isn't the point of science to find out why and how? By dismissing an idea immediately just because it does not logically fit you are closing doors to possible truths. What if every scientist immediately dismissed the idea of atoms being able to be broken down just because they could not realize so with their current technology?[/QUOTE] Science is about providing evidence for your theories. Saying "Oh look at these darned scientists dismissing my pet theory" isn't the way to do it. You HAVE to provide EVIDENCE. Furthermore, in the case of souls, you also have to explain how it fits with absolutely everything else. Just because souls exist doesn't mean evolution is false. You would have to explain where it fit into everything and why. Otherwise, you are just picking and choosing what you like.

If you are going to say that life after death exists you should be able to support your stance. The only thing I've seen so far here is about near death experiences and "energy can not be created or destroyed", which is meaningless because the human brain is prone to doing mistakes, aswell as consciousness, memories, and brain activity not being otherworldy. It can be measured and explained.

I'm open to the possibility, but until there's proof, or i see it for myself, then there is no such thing. I do remember hearing of a hypothesis that human consciousness is a quantum entity and is stripped from the body upon death, not so sure if it will ever be possible to find out though.

[QUOTE=Sobotnik;42329059]Then what caused god?[/quote] Some believe he wasn't "caused" at all, because he's in a place where time is nonexistent, therefore there wouldn't be a pre-era where God never existed. Even some NDE's have people who entered realms which had no time. I don't fully believe all that though. And to those of you who are blatantly saying "Nope. There's no afterlife, period." and not much else, what's your definite proof of that?