[QUOTE=amdX2;41164912]This. I don't understand how first world governments/organizations cannot pay first world citizens a rewarding contract for improving the infrastructure of third world nations.[/QUOTE]
Because the rich people who pay for their elections would lose money wihout exploitable workers.
In Australia, our richest woman wants to create a tax zone in the far north so she can pay workers $2 a day so shes competitive with african mining companies. This is not even satire.
Ethically it's pretty wrong but looking at it from an objective point of view i think it would be better if it was banned or limited
[QUOTE=Faz;41272107]Ethically it's pretty wrong but looking at it from an objective point of view i think it would be better if it was banned or limited[/QUOTE]
What is this objective point of view?
Why would it be better to be banned or limited?
We should ban immigration immediately and deport all immigrants, keep Europe European and Canada Canadian. We shouldn't even send development funds to Africa or Asia.
[QUOTE=Charchar;41326131]We should ban immigration immediately and deport all immigrants, keep Europe European and Canada Canadian. We shouldn't even send development funds to Africa or Asia.[/QUOTE]
Please Elaborate, because at the moment you're coming off as a a huge racist.
[editline]5th July 2013[/editline]
Now for the debate.
There is no conceivable reason why Immigration should be banned in First world countries. First off, they are an excellent and arguably invaluable source of hands for the workforce. What is it that you think when you think of a janitor? Maybe you think of a middle aged white male, but as we know, opinions and observations are shaped by experiences, so, you may have pictured a Mexican man, Puerto Rican, or some other typical migrant male. The fact is, that migrant workers often take the shitty, awful fucking jobs that white people think they're too good for. Migrant workers get shafted in this regard, as they end up poor and working shitty, dead end job. Remember that this is still better then their home country, so technically, it's a win win for them. A good example would be [url=http://www.theworld.org/2013/05/chopping-chicken-in-missouri-immigrants-not-locals-still-fill-the-processing-lines/]this[/url]. A story describing the propping up of the Missouri Chicken industry by illegal aliens. Without this, we'd have to import. That just brings up a whole host of issues i won't even begin to take a stab at.
I might be criticized for only relating these issues to fat old white people, but lets be honest, fat old white people don't give a shit by anyone but fat old white people. After all, the best way to convince people to do something is to make it about them.
[QUOTE=The Aussie;41326492]Please Elaborate, because at the moment you're coming off as a a huge racist.
[editline]5th July 2013[/editline]
Now for the debate.
There is no conceivable reason why Immigration should be banned in First world countries. First off, they are an excellent and arguably invaluable source of hands for the workforce. What is it that you think when you think of a janitor? Maybe you think of a middle aged white male, but as we know, opinions and observations are shaped by experiences, so, you may have pictured a Mexican man, Puerto Rican, or some other typical migrant male. The fact is, that migrant workers often take the shitty, awful fucking jobs that white people think they're too good for. Migrant workers get shafted in this regard, as they end up poor and working shitty, dead end job. Remember that this is still better then their home country, so technically, it's a win win for them. A good example would be [url=http://www.theworld.org/2013/05/chopping-chicken-in-missouri-immigrants-not-locals-still-fill-the-processing-lines/]this[/url]. A story describing the propping up of the Missouri Chicken industry by illegal aliens. Without this, we'd have to import. That just brings up a whole host of issues i won't even begin to take a stab at.
I might be criticized for only relating these issues to fat old white people, but lets be honest, fat old white people don't give a shit by anyone but fat old white people. After all, the best way to convince people to do something is to make it about them.[/QUOTE]
uhh.................. way to stereotype a fuckton of people?
And just allowing immigration without helping the home country only helps a few, if we stopped being lazy we could improve their countries to where everyone benefits. We can even make it very low interest debt if we wish. Or no interest, with lots of time to pay it back if money is REALLY such an issue.
I can only speak for my own country in this matter, as I don't know how strict or open other countries immigration policies are. [B]I don't think we should ban it[/B] but we should definitely have a more regulated and selective immigration in Sweden.
Many people in Sweden are very unhappy with the current immigration and how it has affected our society on a social plane. In a recent study it was concluded that as much as 90% feel that the discussion about immigration to Sweden is not grounded and truthful, and up to 25% of people wanted the Sweden Democrats to be part of the Riksdag, but only around 12% would actually vote for them. But I think this has more to do with the fact that it's today considered ok to criticize immigration politics, but as soon as you take those opinions into act and vote for a change (SD) suddenly makes you racist.
[QUOTE=NightWig;41268521]Sweden has very relaxed immigration laws compared to most other countries in EU, but if you ask me, we should open our borders even more.[/QUOTE]
I don't know where you live but I'm certain that if you had ever been to say, Rinkeby or Tensta or any similar area, you wouldn't favor open borders. Ofcourse to you immigration sounds wonderful because it's goodhearted and helping people, but at the same time I'm willing to bet you live in some village in Norrland with very few immigrants. I live in the capital and [I]I've seen some shit[/I]. It's as bad as Stockholmers telling hunters not to shoot the wolves for attacking the farmers sheep out in the Swedish country, far from the capital. Ofcourse you are entitled to your own opinion but I'm very curious to know if you've actually seen the result of this mass-immigration that you favor so dearly.
i'v always felt it quite strange that countries like the uk, usa, and canada claim to have certain rights. they say you have a right to travel freely, or assemble where you want, or work where you want. however, these rights are only extended to those who have the fortune of being born on a particular piece of soil. are they really rights if we are so exclusionary with it? why is a foreigner's right to live where he wants less than someone who is native born?
logically, if you believe, for instance, that the constitution outlines [i]inalienable[/i] rights that are bestowed simply by being alive, then anyone who comes within the jurisdiction of the united states should have those rights defended no matter what their immigration status is. it seems odd to me that we are so quick to deny rights to others simply because they were born elsewhere. i mean we don't look at the character of the person, their actions, or their situations. instead, we tell them that because they were born in a different nation, they have to go through some arbitrary process and some official will decide whether they are deserving or qualified enough to simply be granted some of the most basic human rights recognized in the country.
idk, i guess what i'm saying is: are "all men created equal", or are "all americans created equal"?
[QUOTE=Hellsten;41375726]I don't know where you live but I'm certain that if you had ever been to say, Rinkeby or Tensta or any similar area, you wouldn't favor open borders. Ofcourse to you immigration sounds wonderful because it's goodhearted and helping people, but at the same time I'm willing to bet you live in some village in Norrland with very few immigrants. I live in the capital and [I]I've seen some shit[/I]. It's as bad as Stockholmers telling hunters not to shoot the wolves for attacking the farmers sheep out in the Swedish country, far from the capital. Ofcourse you are entitled to your own opinion but I'm very curious to know if you've actually seen the result of this mass-immigration that you favor so dearly.[/QUOTE]
It's not the immigration that causes the problems. It's mostly the treatment the immigrants get. Most people of colour still have more problem with jobs (which is extremely hard for white people too), they are faced with racism etc. This will cause problems, and then people will only blame the immigrants instead of taking into account what can cause these problems.
I do not live in a village in Norrland. I grew up in a small city, with many immigrants. The immigration hadn't brought problem in the city, it was mostly racists who brought problems.
[QUOTE=NightWig;41376766]It's not the immigration that causes the problems. It's mostly the treatment the immigrants get. Most people of colour still have more problem with jobs (which is extremely hard for white people too), they are faced with racism etc. This will cause problems, and then people will only blame the immigrants instead of taking into account what can cause these problems.
I do not live in a village in Norrland. I grew up in a small city, with many immigrants. The immigration hadn't brought problem in the city, it was mostly racists who brought problems.[/QUOTE]
So the recent riots only had to do with unemployment then? There is no other factor? How come we only had these riots in areas populated mostly with immigrants? There are many smaller villages throughout Sweden which has a high youth unemployment but very few immigrants, why no riots there?
I think there's more to it than just skin colour. That is a very superficial reasoning that is not viable in Europe. It might work in America because in USA you have cultures mixed together and you are pretty much the same people with the only difference being your skin colour really (ofcourse genetical and racial differences, but skin colour being the most obvious difference). I prefer to think of people as their ethnic group, their nationality and their cultural identity. Just because I have a lighter skin colour doesn't mean I am of the same ethnicity as an Englishman or Frenchman.
I don't think they have a hard time getting a job because they are [I]"faced with racism"[/I]. I think they have a hard time because they do not speak the language as good as they should, theres probably a lack of education, but most of all I think it's because the gap between their segregated community and the rest of the Swedish society is huge, and there's a feeling of exclusion. This exclusion leads to aggression towards the main society, and lately it was displayed in form of riots. Politicians treat immigrants like infants that needs taking care of and need special support, in a way this can be positive if done right, but currently I think it just causes a feeling of that immigrants do not belong and are inadequate.
[editline]din mamma är bög för helvete[/editline]
I'm convinced an immigrant not growing up in one of these segregated areas have a much much better chance at getting high grades, a better education, and a better job. It was never the immigrants fault, it's the politicians fault for creating this scenario and these excluded societies.
[QUOTE=The Aussie;41326492]Please Elaborate, because at the moment you're coming off as a a huge racist.
[editline]5th July 2013[/editline]
Now for the debate.
There is no conceivable reason why Immigration should be banned in First world countries. First off, they are an excellent and arguably invaluable source of hands for the workforce. What is it that you think when you think of a janitor? Maybe you think of a middle aged white male, but as we know, opinions and observations are shaped by experiences, so, you may have pictured a Mexican man, Puerto Rican, or some other typical migrant male. The fact is, that migrant workers often take the shitty, awful fucking jobs that white people think they're too good for. Migrant workers get shafted in this regard, as they end up poor and working shitty, dead end job. Remember that this is still better then their home country, so technically, it's a win win for them. A good example would be [url=http://www.theworld.org/2013/05/chopping-chicken-in-missouri-immigrants-not-locals-still-fill-the-processing-lines/]this[/url]. A story describing the propping up of the Missouri Chicken industry by illegal aliens. Without this, we'd have to import. That just brings up a whole host of issues i won't even begin to take a stab at.
I might be criticized for only relating these issues to fat old white people, but lets be honest, fat old white people don't give a shit by anyone but fat old white people. After all, the best way to convince people to do something is to make it about them.[/QUOTE]
You're making some pretty insane generalisations there. Are you saying only a white guy, rich or poor, would not take a janitor job purely because he's white and in your opinion white people think they're too good for that?
Speaking for the UK. I think we should go for less of an open door policy and more for something like Australia with criteria to meet.
I probably am making a big generalization here, but it's no secret that often the shittier jobs given to people, are given to migrants or young people. People coming from third world countries often don't have the skills that someone brought up in a middle class home in suburbia would. I'm pretty sure i had not slept for a day or two when i made that post, so i'm sorry if i offend anyone, but i do believe that oftentimes immigrants and poor people (Here i again) get shafted with shitty jobs.
In my opinion, We should not ban imigrants from first world countires.
The world needs uniting, And setting up borders in both physical terms, And more or less the figurative, Would deny many the opotunity of a better life. Limiting and constraining the movement of human beings just because of their nationality should be prohibited.
I can understand how, A few indivual imigrants have given a bad image to their comunties, But as said, They are individuals, And stereo types are in no way a basis for 'imformed decisions'.
Lol wow, no. This is the stupidest idea imaginable.
You do realize that the top-tier scientists that go to america to collaborate from all around the world are immigrants too right?
Tesla and Einstein were both immigrants.
Well personally I am an immigrant I guess you can say so but there is nothing wrong with that. I speak english fluently and my parents do too but not as good as me. we get on with everyone else and no one has problems. if all the jmmigrants would be departed out of the UK the economy would collapse no one will want to do hard work jn factories etc that many immigrants do. Many recruiters would rather hire an immigrant rather than a brit because brits slack off complajn about the wage and shit like that. And USA surely everyone there is an immigrant except the native americans?
There's bad immigration: People coming to your country because their own is a piece of shit.
And good immigration: People coming to your country to seek new experience and culture.
I realize that Modern America is a case of bad immigration from the past. But in this day and age, we pump so much god damn money into Africa and the middle east that I don't get why they keep fleeing to our countries. Is all the money we throw at them in their countries not helping them or something?
Don't forget issues like population ageing:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3WYx2v6O_I[/media]
[QUOTE=Corewarp3;41518089]I realize that Modern America is a case of bad immigration from the past. But in this day and age, we pump so much god damn money into Africa and the middle east that I don't get why they keep fleeing to our countries. Is all the money we throw at them in their countries not helping them or something?[/QUOTE]
The money we throw at those countries is, honestly, being stolen. The so called "leaders" of the countries live in huge houses and have gigantic compounds. On top of all that they are basically untouchable. Also including the fact only friends of those who can get their hands on this money are rich too, but that circle stops there. In the end, a good 90% of those people don't even see that money, hell they probably don't even know we are giving them money.
To add my own little argument, what happened to the really old days. Like the early 1700's to the late 1800's? People lived in their own damn countries, English people lived in England, French people lived in France. People stayed to their own countries except for the few who were dumb enough to leave, thinking they were going to get rich because of the stereotypical rumors they heard. Kinda like in the 1940's to 1960's when immigrants thought living in the USA was going to be a walk in the park when realistically there was a great depression and total chaos in the economy.
In conclusion, all of this is caused by greed, not culture or experience or that kind of bullshit. If someone wanted to move to America to see shit and learn something new, they can get a visa for a couple months. People who break the law and/or enter our country to live here, are here for the money. Also it makes me really angry to see they are seeking refuge because if they were seeking refuge they can break into the country then apply for citizenship and pay some damn taxes, but obviously they don't care and really don't want to pay taxes.
EDIT: Also if you move to a country for money, learn the language there.
[QUOTE=cradboard;41547626]To add my own little argument, what happened to the really old days. Like the early 1700's to the late 1800's? People lived in their own damn countries, English people lived in England, French people lived in France.[/quote]
People traveled all the time though. In fact, people from both those countries emigrated in their millions over that time period.
[quote]People stayed to their own countries except for the few who were dumb enough to leave, thinking they were going to get rich because of the stereotypical rumors they heard.[/quote]
But immigrants tend to be forward looking, hard-working people. Making the effort to emigrate is in itself a key indication they have the up and go to be successful.
Surprisingly enough, immigrants faced good prospects in countries like the USA, Canada, or Argentina when they moved into them in the 19th century.
[quote]Kinda like in the 1940's to 1960's when immigrants thought living in the USA was going to be a walk in the park when realistically there was a great depression and total chaos in the economy.[/quote]
Immigration was way down by that point, and what crap are you talking? The American economy from 1945 through 1970 was booming. The oil crisis brought that to an end for a short while.
[quote]In conclusion, all of this is caused by greed, not culture or experience or that kind of bullshit. If someone wanted to move to America to see shit and learn something new, they can get a visa for a couple months. People who break the law and/or enter our country to live here, are here for the money.[/quote]
Yeah, people move because they want better economic opportunities. So? Who cares if they want to make a bit of cash?
[quote]Also it makes me really angry to see they are seeking refuge because if they were seeking refuge they can break into the country then apply for citizenship and pay some damn taxes, but obviously they don't care and really don't want to pay taxes.[/quote]
They do pay taxes though, and their labour helps fill the gaps in many crucial sectors of the economy.
[quote]Also if you move to a country for money, learn the language there.[/QUOTE]
This is wise for an immigrant to do, but if they end up making a "Chinatown" for example, they are perfectly entitled to speak Chinese there.
[QUOTE=The Aussie;41392778]I probably am making a big generalization here, but it's no secret that often the shittier jobs given to people, are given to migrants or young people. People coming from third world countries often don't have the skills that someone brought up in a middle class home in suburbia would. I'm pretty sure i had not slept for a day or two when i made that post, so i'm sorry if i offend anyone, but i do believe that oftentimes immigrants and poor people (Here i again) get shafted with shitty jobs.[/QUOTE]
It's sad, but not too hard to see why things end up like this though.
Young people lack experience and sometimes the education for better jobs, and are more gullible than an older worker because they're more desperate to take any job, and thus they're easier to assign the work no one else wants.
Many immigrants lack a legitimate education needed to get into a proper job here and often can't speak the new language well, and because they're more desperate for any job so they can settle in and support themselves they're easier to assign the work no one else wants.
The powerful exploit the weak, and the weak are thankful to survive.
[editline]23rd July 2013[/editline]
[QUOTE=Virtanen;41404985]Lol wow, no. This is the stupidest idea imaginable.
You do realize that the top-tier scientists that go to america to collaborate from all around the world are immigrants too right?
Tesla and Einstein were both immigrants.[/QUOTE]
I think we need to realize that people who immigrate from wealthy countries because of personal interest is not the same group of people who immigrate from poor countries for survival.
If they did that they would be called second world countries.
[QUOTE=Virtanen;41404985]Lol wow, no. This is the stupidest idea imaginable.
You do realize that the top-tier scientists that go to america to collaborate from all around the world are immigrants too right?
Tesla and Einstein were both immigrants.[/QUOTE]
I don't think Tesla and Einstein were immigrants in the sense that we're talking about here. I'm sure they came here on legal terms instead of trying to escape their country by sneaking in.
Can't the third world countries just develop their countries and we just not let any of them in? If not, they should adapt to us, not them
Immigration is bad if the country has no infrastructure and resource to support new citizens. Look at Singapore. Our own citizens are losing jobs to foreigners who are seen 10 times better than the locals. Ironically, our construction are done by foreigners since no local citizens would want to take up such jobs unlike in the western country.
[QUOTE=Banhfunbags;41566211]I don't think Tesla and Einstein were immigrants in the sense that we're talking about here. I'm sure they came here on legal terms instead of trying to escape their country by sneaking in.[/QUOTE]
Do you even know what the difference between immigration and illegal immigration is? What you're talking about is illegal immigration and that's not really what we're discussing.
In my active opinion we should not. Because if immigration is banned, people will just do it illegally. If you think about it like this it seems very illogical to ban immigration. :zoid:
In my country, immigration has been used as a tool to bring wages down. I'm not against immigration though.
Those entering the country need to know enough about the country that they aren't exploited and being employed at such minimal salaries, which is what is happening unfortunately.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.
