日本雑談スレ2 - General

[QUOTE=Empty_Shadow;50123594]Always wanted to learn a language, and I started getting into weeb stuff a few years back. Did a bit of research, found out japanese grammar is completely different and weird compared to english and that got me pretty interested. Always wanted to learn a language and the further from english the better imo. If I didn't start japanese I probably would have ended up learning chinese or korean instead, I have no interest in [B]learning a language similar to english because it'd just be boring[/B] so why not go as far from it as you can. So essentially it boils down to: Wanted to learn a language Japanese fit what I wanted to learn Bonus Points: Can watch anime without subs [sp]one day[/sp] EDIT: Kinda pisses me off when people dismiss learning jap because of weeb shitlords. Like yeah watching anime is part of it but it's still learning a fucking language it's a pretty big commitment and it ain't an easy language.[/QUOTE] Can confirm, I tried to learn German but gave up after ~4 months because it wasn't interesting enough. If you still want to learn Korean later there should be better materials for it in Japanese than in English because the grammar is almost identical, plus it will make your Japanese even better. That's my current plan (and I may have bought まんがで韓国語をしゃべれる way before I needed it because I don't know the next time I'll be at a Japanese bookstore) but it's a long way off.

I find korean interesting because of the alphabet system and how they've reformed their language somewhat recently. It's cool to learn languages like that, japan has it too. Unlike english which is just an uncontrolled sprawl of fucking everything under the sun, those languages actually have a bit more logic and order to them, and shitty features get cut out now and then.

Japanese is an inefficient language in terms of the alphabet tho. that's one that many western languages have over it. [editline]13th April 2016[/editline] also, too context based imo

[QUOTE=.Lain;50125641]Japanese is an inefficient language in terms of the alphabet tho. that's one that many western languages have over it. [editline]13th April 2016[/editline] also, too context based imo[/QUOTE] Japanese doesn't have an alphabet though. It's got two syllabaries and a set of logograms. Learning them may take longer than an alphabet but the benefits in reading speed and how much info you can pack into a small space is worth it. They also look way prettier than our alphabet does.

[QUOTE=.Lain;50125641]Japanese is an inefficient language in terms of the alphabet tho. that's one that many western languages have over it. [editline]13th April 2016[/editline] also, too context based imo[/QUOTE] I much prefer a large alphabet to an inconsistent one. g, c, ch, sh, y and x can all fuck off. [editline]14th April 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=helifreak;50127766]Japanese doesn't have an alphabet though. It's got two syllabaries and a set of logograms. Learning them may take longer than an alphabet but the benefits in reading speed and how much info you can pack into a small space is worth it. They also look way prettier than our alphabet does.[/QUOTE] Reading speed takes roughly the same time no matter the language. They did studies on alphabet languages (english, german) vs pictographic (japanese, chinese) and the increase in speed you get from having physically shorter words is equally offset by the decrease in speed caused by taking longer to recognize each kanji.

[QUOTE=Empty_Shadow;50123671]I find korean interesting because of the alphabet system and how they've reformed their language somewhat recently. It's cool to learn languages like that, japan has it too. Unlike english which is just an uncontrolled sprawl of fucking everything under the sun, those languages actually have a bit more logic and order to them, and shitty features get cut out now and then.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Empty_Shadow;50128619]I much prefer a large alphabet to an inconsistent one. g, c, ch, sh, y and x can all fuck off.[/QUOTE] If english actually DID have a governing body, I wonder how they'd simplify the language without causing a clusterfuck of homonyms and homophones and so on. Maybe use y for 'ai' sounds like white becoming 'wyt', and words like 'styl' and 'myld'.

[QUOTE=ScottyWired;50128818]If english actually DID have a governing body, I wonder how they'd simplify the language without causing a clusterfuck of homonyms and homophones and so on. Maybe use y for 'ai' sounds like white becoming 'wyt', and words like 'styl' and 'myld'.[/QUOTE] Japanese doesn't have homos because of being governed, it has them because it's alphabet is relatively limited. They have I think 3 less consonants than english and it's also missing several combinations. (e.g. there's no [B]whe[/B](n) sound.) You can do a consistent alphabet with a fairly low number of characters, most languages that use the cyrillic alphabet have completely consistent sounds and I'm fairly sure it's around 30 characters? Pretty sure russian is fairly low in homonyms. I can get behind myld and wyt. I wouldn't mind just using japanese style though and just being consistent. A waild animal. hav yuu siin mai cat?

[B]whe[/B](n) exists, ゑ and ヱ but you only find those in old writings since people use うぇ and more commonly ウェ now. Same thing with ゐ and ヰ / うぃ and ウィ for wi (and the only reason I remember the hiragana one is because of the Touhou character てゐ). No wu though.

I think the simplified writing method of English would also possibly require an introduction of additional vowel symbols, like æ.

[QUOTE=helifreak;50129912][B]whe[/B](n) exists, ゑ and ヱ but you only find those in old writings since people use うぇ and more commonly ウェ now. Same thing with ゐ and ヰ / うぃ and ウィ for wi (and the only reason I remember the hiragana one is because of the Touhou character てゐ). No wu though.[/QUOTE] Those aren't official anymore afaik.

[QUOTE=Empty_Shadow;50129957]Those aren't official anymore afaik.[/QUOTE] The ゐ ones might be (only place I've seen them in my limited reading is Twitter names) but the compound ウィ ones are [URL="https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%A6%E3%82%A3%E3%82%AD%E3%83%9A%E3%83%87%E3%82%A3%E3%82%A2"]still in use[/URL].

[QUOTE=helifreak;50129969]The ゐ ones might be (only place I've seen them in my limited reading is Twitter names) but the compound ウィ ones are [URL="https://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E3%82%A6%E3%82%A3%E3%82%AD%E3%83%9A%E3%83%87%E3%82%A3%E3%82%A2"]still in use[/URL].[/QUOTE] I meant the individual kana, the combos are the new standard iirc

The individual kana are antiquated and not used in formal Japanese but I'm pretty sure most people still know what they are, sometimes the advertisements will write ye instead of e, wi instead of i etc. etc. for that old-timey 懐かしい feel

[QUOTE=helifreak;50127766]Japanese doesn't have an alphabet though. It's got two syllabaries and a set of logograms. Learning them may take longer than an alphabet but the benefits in reading speed and how much info you can pack into a small space is worth it. They also look way prettier than our alphabet does.[/QUOTE] That's an alphabet. Not in the same sense as the roman alphabet, but it is one none the less. Just like the binary alphabet is one and zero, japanese has a large alphabet because it can be represented in a relatively large amount of forms. Also, prettier =/= better. Complex strokes are inherently less time efficient and prone to being corrupted through human interference, but can be more space efficient I suppose. [editline]14th April 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Empty_Shadow;50128619]I much prefer a large alphabet to an inconsistent one. g, c, ch, sh, y and x can all fuck off. [/QUOTE] I agree entirely. Both languages have their tradeoffs. I think spanish is one of the most sensible and consistent langauges in terms of alphabet, phonology and written manner, requiring little context to make full meaning.

Where do I start learning Japanese? I've already learned hiragana and katakana. Which resources/books should I use?

genki is good

[QUOTE=.Lain;50133034]That's an alphabet. Not in the same sense as the roman alphabet, but it is one none the less. Just like the binary alphabet is one and zero, japanese has a large alphabet because it can be represented in a relatively large amount of forms. Also, prettier =/= better. Complex strokes are inherently less time efficient and prone to being corrupted through human interference, but can be more space efficient I suppose.[/QUOTE] No, it's not an alphabet at all. In the same way that a plane is not a car because they both have wheels, engines and move things. Binary isn't an alphabet either. Neither are Arabic numerals. [quote=Wikipedia]An alphabet is a standard set of letters (basic written symbols or graphemes) which is used to write one or more languages based on the general principle that the letters represent phonemes (basic significant sounds) of the spoken language. This is in contrast to other types of writing systems, such as syllabaries (in which each character represents a syllable) and logographies (in which each character represents a word, morpheme, or semantic unit).[/quote] [QUOTE=xVENUSx;50133319]Where do I start learning Japanese? I've already learned hiragana and katakana. Which resources/books should I use?[/QUOTE] The Genki books are good to begin with but I personally got really bored with it about half way through the first book because it's pretty dull and I disagree with it teaching the polite form before the normal form (because conjugating from polite to normal is way harder than from normal to polite). I think the other books people recommend are Minna no Nihongo and Sou Matome (総まとめ, appears to only be N1-3 so a long way above a beginner). Not sure how the N5 version of Shin Kanzen Master (新完全マスター) is but I like how the N4 one at least has explanations of grammar in English and Japanese. I believe N2+ doesn't have English descriptions because you can understand the Japanese ones at that point [URL="http://guidetojapanese.org/"]Tae Kim's guide[/URL] is about the best free (and very high up there even with paid options) grammar resource there is. I'd recommend [URL="http://ankisrs.net/"]Anki[/URL] for making sure vocabulary sticks. Using a Heisig / [URL="http://kanjidamage.com/"]Heisig esque[/URL] system for learning kanji keywords worked well for me but some people are against it. Other people like using [URL="http://www.fluentu.com/"]Fluent U[/URL] and [URL="www.memrise.com/"]Memrise[/URL] but I never liked them. Khatzumoto used to update [URL="http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/archives"]his blog[/URL] with well written articles but he appears to have died or something.

I was always taught that 'alphabet' covered the broader range of logographies and syllabaries. TIL. Regardless the point still stands.

[QUOTE=.Lain;50133034]That's an alphabet. Not in the same sense as the roman alphabet, but it is one none the less. Just like the binary alphabet is one and zero, japanese has a large alphabet because it can be represented in a relatively large amount of forms. Also, prettier =/= better. Complex strokes are inherently less time efficient and prone to being corrupted through human interference, but can be more space efficient I suppose. [editline]14th April 2016[/editline] I agree entirely. Both languages have their tradeoffs. I think spanish is one of the most sensible and consistent langauges in terms of alphabet, phonology and written manner, requiring little context to make full meaning.[/QUOTE] And thats why esperanto exists. Also, does anyone know how to navigate a numberpad-like japanese IME? I cant figure out how it works.

[QUOTE=Aircraft;50147172]And thats why esperanto exists. Also, does anyone know how to navigate a numberpad-like japanese IME? I cant figure out how it works.[/QUOTE] There are two types. The first is the classic one where the first press does the a vowel, then second press does i, u, e, o. あいうえお / かきくけこ etc. The other type is the flick one where pressing it does a, swipe left is i, up is u, right is e, down is o. If you are using SImeji (which you should) it has a guide mode for flick where it shows the kana for each direction all the time. [t]https://helifreak.duckdns.org/image/20160417054332279.png[/t] [editline]17th April 2016[/editline] You can type really fast when you get used to how the flick one works, I can't because I don't use it enough but I'll get there some day.

OH. Thank you so much!

Why is half width katakana even a thing? It's so ugly and doesn't even save much space when you start getting dakuten and handakuten since they don't combine. ブラウザー ﾌﾞﾗｳｻﾞｰ Half width saved a whole character, wow! ボタン ﾎﾞﾀﾝ :nope: How can anybody think the bottom one looks better. Just looks like someone shit on the screen. Going to spend a few hours converting the half width into full width in the KeePass translation so I stop getting cancer every time I open it.

they're more just a left over of the early days of computing when resources were more limited. They are also used on things like signs and receipts.

[QUOTE=Keitaro;50152937]they're more just a left over of the early days of computing when resources were more limited. They are also used on things like signs and receipts.[/QUOTE] similar to stuff like fixed width fonts in english [code]this looks like ass to your eyes but it's really fucking handy when you're coding[/code]

[QUOTE=Empty_Shadow;50154309]similar to stuff like fixed width fonts in english [code]this looks like ass to your eyes but it's really fucking handy when you're coding[/code][/QUOTE] Monospace fonts don't hurt my eyes but maybe that's just due to how long I've spent programming. Monospaced fonts are great though, who needs a word processor to make lecture notes when you have consolas? [code] Strong Weak ----------------- States ------------------ | Client | | Preference | ----------------- -->-->-- ------------------ | clientNo {PK} | | prefType | | name | | maxRent | | fName | ------------------ | lName | | telNo | ----------------- Fan trap: Where a model represents a relationship between entity types, but pathway between certain entity occurrences is ambiguous. --------- Has ------------ Operates ---------- | Staff | ---<--<--- | Division | --->-->--- | Branch | --------- 1..* 1..1 ------------ 1..1 1..* ---------- How tell where staff worK? Cannot into doing this! ------------ Operates ---------- Has --------- | Division | --->-->--- | Branch | --->-->--- | Staff | ------------ 1..1 1..* ---------- 1..1 1..* --------- Can into tell where staff work. Is of wow. Chasm trap: Where a mode suggests the existence of a relationship between entity types, but pathway does not exist between certain entity occurrences. ---------- Has --------- Oversees ------------------- | Branch | --->-->--- | Staff | --->-->--- | PropertyForRent | ---------- 1..1 1..* --------- 0..1 0..* ------------------- How tell where property is avail? Cannot into doing this! ---------- Has --------- Oversees ------------------- | Branch | --->-->--- | Staff | --->-->--- | PropertyForRent | ---------- 1..1 1..* --------- 0..1 0..* ------------------- | 1..1 Offers 1..* | ------------------------------------------------- Can into tell where property is avail. Is of wow.[/code] Half width katakana is actually the complete opposite because you end up with it looking fucked with half width characters then a full width の and then more half width and maybe some kanji and more half width. :vomit:

I like fixed width too but show it to anyone who does fonts or design work and they'll cut you on the spot. And I meant it was similar in that it's purely for function, it's useful for receipts and squeezing shit in. Does look crap though

What do the dots above / beside (なぜ縦書き) characters mean? [t]http://52.62.164.10/image/20160419144055965.png[/t] Seen it in a novel I'm reading too and the only thing I can think of was it being read slower or something but it just happened on a voiced part and the voice acting didn't seem to change at all compared to the rest of the text.

[QUOTE=Keitaro;50152937]they're more just a left over of the early days of computing when resources were more limited. They are also used on things like signs and receipts.[/QUOTE] back in early days you had ~128 characters you could have in a character set it wasn't even enough to fit in hiragana, let alone all the kanji, so you had to deal with that half-width katakana set, made to fit the 'half-width' space that roman letters would occupy with that in mind i'm actually wondering how early chinese computers could handle it, since they don't have syllabaries like that (at least that i have heard of).

I'm pretty sure most early computers were almost exclusively in English, computers were a really technical/scientific field and since most people educated enough to use them in the early days probably knew English, they were just fine. Or they taught themselves how to understand it well enough to use computers. Once computers actually had space to dedicate to more than 26 discrete characters, they probably started releasing sets for Japanese/Chinese characters. I'm by no means an expert though, that's really just a guess. If someone has an informed answer please feel free to correct me.

I actually believe they used cangjie and represented each rad as a character in encoding. A special viewer was needed or else it would look like this: ㄴ ㅏ ㅌ ㅁ ㅔ ㅌ [i dont have chinese on my phone but i hope you get the idea]