[QUOTE=J Paul]CNN will be playing Obama's conversation with Joe The Plumber here in a minute, if you missed it like I did.[/QUOTE]
Was it a new one or the original one?
Karl Rove looked like a mutant in W.
I don't think moving taxes so richer people get higher taxes is a bad thing.
Taxes for richer people got incredibly lowered under Bush.
He basically just wants to reverse the bullshit.
You guys have no idea what socialism even means.
I am so sick of this politician crap on TV.
Yes it was entertaining for a while, but to be honest it's just getting sad now.
Thank god the election is only 1 more week away.
What really pisses me off is that these two guys don't really [b]care[/b] about the American people.. yes they might claim to care.. but you know these rich guys only care about having that white house as their home, nothing more, nothing less.
This makes me think back to my ethics class I took a while back when I studied egoism.
These politicians are perfect cases of psychological egoism, no matter how hard they tried their actions are self-loving actions. No matter what they say or do, they do the things they do for themselves first then the country; but isn't that not supposed happen when it comes to leadership? Especially to such a powerful country in such hectic shape.
[QUOTE=FreDre]Meaning? We need to face another great depression. We need to rethink our economical system. We need to reinvent it. They already did in the '30, why not again? Oh, right, we are too conformable...[/QUOTE]
So you'd like to punish people who are worse off than you, who have families to support, while you sit cushioned in your middle-class home with a high speed internet connection, all so you can get some kind of political satisfaction?
People aren't made to be spent. Christ.
[QUOTE=Killuah]I don't think moving taxes so richer people get higher taxes is a bad thing.
Taxes for richer people got incredibly lowered under Bush.
He basically just wants to reverse the bullshit.
You guys have no idea what socialism even means.[/QUOTE]
So why should hard working people have to pay more taxes? That's like going to the movie theater, having them check your wallet, and making you pay 5% of what you have.
It makes no sense. It's like letting people who don't work get some of the money from people who DO work.
Seriously, we need a fixed tax rate. Not that varied bullshit. Bill Gates should be paying the same amount of taxes as some hobo.
But instead the hobo gets TAX money from Bill Gates, while he pays even more.
If McCain wins I will seriously be scared for whats going to happen to not only the U.S. but for other countries in the next 4 years.
[QUOTE=FreDre]Two points about me:
1° I'm not American
2° I was 17 years old at the time.[/QUOTE]
So you never had a valid opinion on the election and it's effect on people in this country to begin with.
[QUOTE=FreDre]So, going back to the stereotypes:
bringing public education and good universal health care to all the poor children that doesn't have the opportunity to access these things is ABSOLUTELY WRONG for you?? You label this as [b]organized theft[/b][/QUOTE]
:sigh:
Watch that video on self-ownership. I know it's childish, but right now it looks like it's appropriate for you. Then reflect upon the fact that no matter what services your receive as a result, being forced to surrender your money is theft. A knife is still a knife, even if it has a very dull blade.
[QUOTE=FreDre]I'm gonna give you a tip, mate:
Go travel around the world for a while, discover other cultures. Open your knowledge to other things. Learn their philosophies, how they live, how works their government, etc.
Do that for 3-4 years and then come back to America.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that's nice. I'm sure you view yourself as a cosmopolitan by nature of the fact that you've more than likely got another culture in your backyard. So do we. So what's special about you, you "Learned philosophies, ways of life, the ins and outs of a government, etc." through the magic that is the internet? Or maybe a few good books?
You're about as much a "man of the world" as you are a fish. Keep it to the topic, sonny, we can get into traveling credentials afterwards.
[b]Edit:[/b]
[QUOTE=Dabu]Because obviously everyone who is poor is lazy[/QUOTE]
As much as everyone with money is a greedy asshole.
[QUOTE=Roboticist]So you never had a valid opinion on the election and it's effect on people in this country to begin with.[/QUOTE]
That doesn't make his argument any less valid.
[QUOTE=Roboticist]
:sigh:
Watch that video on self-ownership. I know it's childish, but right now it looks like it's appropriate for you. Then reflect upon the fact that no matter what services your receive as a result, being forced to surrender your money is theft. A knife is still a knife, even if it has a very dull blade.[/QUOTE]
So you consider any form of taxes to be theft?
[QUOTE=Roboticist]Yeah, that's nice. I'm sure you view yourself as a cosmopolitan by nature of the fact that you've more than likely got another culture in your backyard. So do we. So what's special about you, you "Learned philosophies, ways of life, the ins and outs of a government, etc." through the magic that is the internet? Or maybe a few good books?
You're about as much a "man of the world" as you are a fish. Keep it to the topic, sonny, we can get into traveling credentials afterwards..[/QUOTE]
It's completely relevant, because you obviously have no idea on how socialism actually works.
Does anyone know that Obama has worked with terrorists before? Does anyone know he went to a racist, America hating pastor called Jeremiah Wright for 20 years and now denies it? Does anyone know what kind of president we're about to let run our country? Obviously not many of you.
[QUOTE=Dr Pepper]Does anyone know that Obama has worked with terrorists before? Does anyone know he went to a racist, America hating pastor called Jeremiah Wright for 20 years and now denies it? Does anyone know what kind of president we're about to let run our country? Obviously not many of you.[/QUOTE]
Oh you mean like John Hagee. McCain's Anti-Humanity pastor, the guy who said on national television that New Orleans deserved everything it got because it had a 'level of sin that was offensive to god'.
The same guy who said 9/11 was a revengeful attack by God on America because of it's sinful foreign policy.
J. Wright has every right to hate America, He has valid points. The country is a white-controlled, war mongering shit hole, Everyone but white Americans can see it.
[QUOTE=Roboticist]Then reflect upon the fact that no matter what services your receive as a result, being forced to surrender your money is theft.[/QUOTE]
Then be a selfish prick and move somewhere else.
[QUOTE=TH89]So you'd like to punish people who are worse off than you, who have families to support, while you sit cushioned in your middle-class home with a high speed internet connection, all so you can get some kind of political satisfaction?
People aren't made to be spent. Christ.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry, but that happened also in the great depression, a lot of people died of hunger while before they lived pretty comfortably until the market crashed.
It would be nice if we could reinvent our economical system without facing another great depression, but I'm not very optimistic on that, I don't see any possibilities seeing all much dependent we are to the current system.
The financial market is a joke, it's so vulnerable it isn't funny anymore.
By the way, you are also sitting cushioned in your middle-class home with a high speed internet connection... You're exactly in the same boat.
@Roboticist
I'm sorry but you don't know me.
I had the chance to traveled a lot.
I lived in Argentina, Haiti, France. I travel constantly on the U.S. and also Europe. Haiti was a real eye opener, it's the poorest country on the America continent. Their political system is a joke, it's corrupted to the spine and all the population is brainwashed with propaganda from an asshole named Jean-Bertrand Aristide who misused international funds for his own benefit and killed a load of opponents. I knew a lot of good people there, starving and with no access to a good health. It's pretty desperate in there.
Also, even if I'm not valid for the American elections, that doesn't mean I'm not concerned about how that country is heading.
I would be naive to say that "Oh, yeah, who gives a fuck about America, it doesn't affect me at all!"
We live in a globalized world, everything is connected. When New York collapse, we suffer everywhere in the globe.
Also, I'm tired of talking about taxing the profits of the excessively wealthy with you.
I'm always repeating the same thing over and over. It's getting annoying.
You clearly support Republicans so you don't really care about what I have to say. All the words are typing to you are just from a "uneducated french moron liberal".
Enjoy your new president, whoever that may be, and I wish you good luck.
I'm done with this thread.
[QUOTE=FreDre]I'm sorry, but that happened also in the great depression, a lot of people died of hunger while before the lived pretty comfortably until the market crashed.
It would be nice if we could reinvent our economical system without facing another great depression, but I'm not very optimistic on that.
The financial market is a joke, it's so vulnerable it isn't funny anymore.
By the way, you are also sitting cushioned in your middle-class home with a high speed internet connection... You're exactly in the same boat.[/QUOTE]
The difference being I'm not advocating abandoning half the population on the grounds of some half-understood economic principles. Just because it "also happened in the great depression" doesn't mean we should do it again. You could use that to justify anything.
[QUOTE=Orsenfelt]Oh you mean like John Hagee. McCain's Anti-Humanity pastor, the guy who said on national television that New Orleans deserved everything it got because it had a 'level of sin that was offensive to god'.
The same guy who said 9/11 was a revengeful attack by God on America because of it's sinful foreign policy.
J. Wright has every right to hate America, He has valid points. The country is a white-controlled, war mongering shit hole, Everyone but white Americans can see it.[/QUOTE]
White controlled? Well America is a predominantly white country, so of course it's white controlled. Why is that so surprising?
Never heard of this bob barr guy, haahah.
[QUOTE=heyo]In socialism there is no american dream at all, no one has any incentive to work hard to make more money, everybodies lazy. You don't get rewarded for actually working hard so why do it?
Socialism creates lazy societies where no one really cares about working, afterall they just get it for free anyway so why bother?
It's not moronic, you look at the small scale while I'm looking at the big picture. Taxing those greedy rich more may sound like a great idea but you have to see the other effects it causes. The rich run the companies and won't want to invest if they have less money, they also won't want to hire more hurting the poor in the end. Most rich people worked hard to get their money.
Everyone here is all: "It's so obvious vote for Obama I can't believe how dumb people are!" Look at the other sides reasons for why they don't want Obama.[/QUOTE]
No, That's what has been spoon fed to you by the top 1% elite to stop anything even remotely socialist happening in America.
Socialism means an educated, healthy population. An educated population means you can't shovel PR marketing in their face 24h a day and get the same effect. It's just like the late great Bill Hicks said.
"Here's some American Gladiators.. go back to bed America"
Socialism would greatly reduce the money men's ability to suck the stupid dry of all their cash, We don't want that now do we?
The entire country is run by fear mongering. You are stripped bare of all your assets under the illusion of the "American Dream" and as a whole you are all too fucking stupid to realize the deep rooted, money grabbing elitist corruption that runs the goddamn country.
Look at the state the country is in just now, The so called land of the free. Where everything you buy is yours? My fucking arse it is.
Your house, Your car, Your stocks, Your wages.. The cash in your back pocket... It's all becoming worthless day after day. Everything you own, Everything you think you are doing to better yourself is going right into the big suit's pocket. THEN your government ignores you and proceeds to give your hard-earned, useless and freely given tax money to who? The same people who just took your house, So they can sell you another one and take that in 80 years too.
Socialism works, It just doesn't work as well as capitalism does for the top 1% who control the country.
I don't hate all Americans, just the idiots who think it's "The Greatest Country on Earth" when clearly.. It'd be a better place without them.
Orsen that was a nice rant. Raised a few good points.
Even if supporting remotely socialist policies was a bad thing, the only person either ticket to actually participate in socialism is Sarah Palin, who sends checks to every person in Alaska because they and I quote, "Get to share in the wealth of the state".
And there she is demonizing socialism and accusing Obama of being a proponent of it.
I don't think all the people booing in the background of her rallies realize what would happen to them if all the socialism that's already in this country was removed. I have a hint - corporate police force. Sounds fun huh?
[QUOTE=Boba_Fett]So why should hard working people have to pay more taxes? That's like going to the movie theater, having them check your wallet, and making you pay 5% of what you have.
It makes no sense. It's like letting people who don't work get some of the money from people who DO work.
Seriously, we need a fixed tax rate. Not that varied bullshit. Bill Gates should be paying the same amount of taxes as some hobo.
But instead the hobo gets TAX money from Bill Gates, while he pays even more.[/QUOTE]
Because most richer people aren't working "harder" than a poorer people, they just had better opportunitites.
YOu are just another ignorant little guy who is not even TRYING to see it from the perspective of people who are not as lucky as you in life.
[b]Edit:[/b]
WHAT THE FUCK IS EVERYONE TALKING ABOUT SOCIALISM NOW?
HOLY SHIT ITS [highlight]NOTHING [/highlight] LIKE SOCIALISM!
[b]Edit:[/b]
[QUOTE=Orsenfelt]No, That's what has been spoon fed to you by the top 1% elite to stop anything even remotely socialist happening in America.
Socialism means an educated, healthy population. An educated population means you can't shovel PR marketing in their face 24h a day and get the same effect. It's just like the late great Bill Hicks said.
"Here's some American Gladiators.. go back to bed America"
Socialism would greatly reduce the money men's ability to suck the stupid dry of all their cash, We don't want that now do we?
The entire country is run by fear mongering. You are stripped bare of all your assets under the illusion of the "American Dream" and as a whole you are all too fucking stupid to realize the deep rooted, money grabbing elitist corruption that runs the goddamn country.
Look at the state the country is in just now, The so called land of the free. Where everything you buy is yours? My fucking arse it is.
Your house, Your car, Your stocks, Your wages.. The cash in your back pocket... It's all becoming worthless day after day. Everything you own, Everything you think you are doing to better yourself is going right into the big suit's pocket. THEN your government ignores you and proceeds to give your hard-earned, useless and freely given tax money to who? The same people who just took your house, So they can sell you another one and take that in 80 years too.
Socialism works, It just doesn't work as well as capitalism does for the top 1% who control the country.
I don't hate all Americans, just the idiots who think it's "The Greatest Country on Earth" when clearly.. It'd be a better place without them.[/QUOTE]
Holy shit thanks.
Thank you so much.
So very fucking much.
[QUOTE=Orsenfelt]No, That's what has been spoon fed to you by the top 1% elite to stop anything even remotely socialist happening in America.
Socialism means an educated, healthy population. An educated population means you can't shovel PR marketing in their face 24h a day and get the same effect. It's just like the late great Bill Hicks said.
"Here's some American Gladiators.. go back to bed America"
Socialism would greatly reduce the money men's ability to suck the stupid dry of all their cash, We don't want that now do we?
The entire country is run by fear mongering. You are stripped bare of all your assets under the illusion of the "American Dream" and as a whole you are all too fucking stupid to realize the deep rooted, money grabbing elitist corruption that runs the goddamn country.
Look at the state the country is in just now, The so called land of the free. Where everything you buy is yours? My fucking arse it is.
Your house, Your car, Your stocks, Your wages.. The cash in your back pocket... It's all becoming worthless day after day. Everything you own, Everything you think you are doing to better yourself is going right into the big suit's pocket. THEN your government ignores you and proceeds to give your hard-earned, useless and freely given tax money to who? The same people who just took your house, So they can sell you another one and take that in 80 years too.
Socialism works, It just doesn't work as well as capitalism does for the top 1% who control the country.
I don't hate all Americans, just the idiots who think it's "The Greatest Country on Earth" when clearly.. It'd be a better place without them.[/QUOTE]
You just fucking nailed it.
Bravo.
Ok. My 2 cents.
Obama is overhyped and overrated.
Mcain is underrated and still a fuckwit.
Where good ol' Ronny?
[QUOTE=AdrianPsy]Ok. My 2 cents.
Obama is overhyped and overrated.
Mcain is underrated and still a fuckwit.
Where good ol' Ronny?[/QUOTE]
Ron Paul was never a good solution.
Don't get me wrong, he is a brilliant man when it comes to the economy and I definitely think it would be a [b]very[/b] smart move by whoever gets in power to put him in charge somewhere. However outside that, He never seemed to be much interested in anything else.
Plus he was anti-abortion.
Pro-choice duuuuudes! :D
[QUOTE=Melkor]That doesn't make his argument any less valid.[/QUOTE]
It invalidates anything he says relevant to the last election's general "mood", so to speak. "Everyone" should be "Me". I never said it in any other context.
[QUOTE=Melkor]So you consider any form of taxes to be theft?[/QUOTE]
If they're involuntary? Of course. Taking money by force would be theft, yes?
[QUOTE=Melkor]It's completely relevant, because you obviously have no idea on how socialism actually works.[/QUOTE]
Feel free to cite a definition of it that runs contrary to something I've said, I think you'd run into trouble doing so. Mainly because I've been speaking in broad terms and Socialism is a broad subject.
[QUOTE=demoguy08]Then be a selfish prick and move somewhere else.[/QUOTE]
Name me a capitalist country with no imposed taxes.
[QUOTE=FreDre]@Roboticist
I'm sorry but you don't know me.[/QUOTE]
Don't need to. That's the point, I think everyone seems to miss that.
I don't give a fuck who you are or what you've done, or how well you can lie about your life- I care about your arguments and ideas. If you need to retreat to talking about qualifications, go to an encyclopedia. Here, you say what you say, as one nerd to a mess of nerds, and the words are evaluated on their own, not as related to you in the real world. That in this discussion you can't let your statements stand bare is absurd- you have some confidence in what you say? Then don't retreat to shit like "Oh well I've been around the block a few more times" (you haven't) or "Oh you're just biased against liberals" (I'm not.)
Ideas are ideas, regardless of who they are attached to. If you somehow feel the need to embellish the image of yourself or sully those of others rather than stick to the ideas you put forth, you're effectively saying [i]you're[/i] the biased one- if somebody doesn't fit your definition of "qualified" you disregard them and everything they say.
The time "qualification" comes into play is discussing facts or witnessing events firsthand- I'm sorry, if you weren't in the U.S. at the time of the last election, I don't believe you know what types of moods U.S. citizens were in about it. "Everyone" is a vague term- you better say who "Everyone" is. Your friends? People you met in the U.S.? Want to say it was just your personal opinion? You did with this current election, and nobody called you out on it.
All I know is that with Obama, the god-damned Iraq and Afghanistan War will soon be over! YES!!!
Praise be to Obama for being a smart person, unlike his dipshit republican counterpart who "would continue the war for 200 years if necessary."
[QUOTE=Killuah]Because most richer people aren't working "harder" than a poorer people, they just had better opportunitites.[/QUOTE]
Oh man ! Best post of the thread ! Too bad most kiddies here won't get it.
I'm not being racist I support Obama and his policies, but I doubt Obama's chances. Even though he's get the bigger part of the rope, there's a lot of random shit that can happen at the last minute.
Like, for example, an assassination, a car bomb. Who knows? Anything can happen. I just hope my doubts are not vindicated.
[QUOTE=Roboticist]
Don't need to. That's the point, I think everyone seems to miss that.
I don't give a fuck who you are or what you've done, or how well you can lie about your life- I care about your arguments and ideas. If you need to retreat to talking about qualifications, go to an encyclopedia. Here, you say what you say, as one nerd to a mess of nerds, and the words are evaluated on their own, not as related to you in the real world. That in this discussion you can't let your statements stand bare is absurd- you have some confidence in what you say? Then don't retreat to shit like "Oh well I've been around the block a few more times" (you haven't) or "Oh you're just biased against liberals" (I'm not.)[/QUOTE]
All right. You're very passionate and I won't insult that, I think it's great that people with opposites opinions discuss them so we can understand why we are so different.
But all opinions are mainly formed on personal experiences.
I expressed mines, I told you why I think that it's right to help the helpless with the taxing of the very wealthy. Maybe I'm wrong, but that is how I see it from my eyes.
But from your point of view, you think that sharing the wealth is bad because it brings laziness to the people.
Your opinions are perfectly understandable, but I don't share them.
I lived another life than yours, you may not believe it, you may think I'm lying about it to increase my 'e-penis' or whatever you can think of. But from my personal history (not yours), I don't share these sames opinions, I don't think they are right, but I accept them as what they are since everyone has the right to express them.
But those kind of opinion like yours won't make me change mines about nationalizing public services and recovering the middle class; neither will you accept mines. We are just incompatible.
Deal with it and move on.
We are discussing on this thread because it's about real issues that concerns all of us in the real world, wherever you live.
America, you like it or not, affects the whole world, directly and indirectly.
I'm very concerned about how this country will be heading if John McCain wins and how a lot of his supporters are reacting with so much hate mainly because of fear and bigotry.
Maybe you're not concerned. Maybe you're seeing the opposite. Maybe you see hope in the eyes of John McCain. Maybe you think he's going to lead America to a new golden era, where the economy blooms and everyone's happy.
If that is what you think, then I hope everything turns out that way for you.
But if it doesn't. Prepare for the consequences...
I wish you luck.
I don't know why Palin isn't calling Obama a terrorist and communist. She thinks he is because "he was with Ayers and wants to tax the rich people."
Thanks to her, I lost all respect to McCain, the only way he gets my respect and vote is if he removes Palin from the fucking ticket and say that Obama is not a communist and not a terrorist.
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