• Firearms V. Super Redneck Edition
    5,000 replies, posted
[QUOTE=GunFox;25805486]Who the hell uses hot loads on 10mm?! It's fucking 10mm! It's a .45 round moving at 9mm velocities![/QUOTE] And you prove your ignorance once again. It's a 0.400" caliber bullet. "Factory" or "FBI" loadings move a 180gr bullet around 1000fps. This is equal to a 40S&W. A true 10mm load is a hot one, which is a 180gr bullet at 1300-1400fps. The original norma 10mm load was a 200gr bullet at 1200fps.
[QUOTE=DrMortician;25805516]And you prove your ignorance once again. It's a 0.400" caliber bullet. "Factory" or "FBI" loadings move a 180gr bullet around 1000fps. This is equal to a 40S&W. A true 10mm load is a hot one, which is a 180gr bullet at 1300-1400fps. The original norma 10mm load was a 200gr bullet at 1200fps.[/QUOTE] Dear god, yes, I know it isn't ACTUALLY moving at identical speeds or an identical round. The concept behind the 10mm is to take the proven power of the .45 and accelerate it to 9mm velocities. Fucking christ. The fact still remains that the factory loadings are more than dangerous enough against anything man-sized and already border on unnecessarily dangerous. EDIT: And no, the FBI loads are not the same as the standard factory loads on 10mm.
Guys? The CZ-97B uses .45ACP. Not 10mm.
[QUOTE=GunFox;25805551]Dear god, yes, I know it isn't ACTUALLY moving at identical speeds or an identical round. The concept behind the 10mm is to take the proven power of the .45 and accelerate it to 9mm velocities. Fucking christ. The fact still remains that the factory loadings are more than dangerous enough against anything man-sized and already border on unnecessarily dangerous. EDIT: And no, the FBI loads are not the same as the standard factory loads on 10mm.[/QUOTE] FBI loads are what became the 40S&W. Link me one factory load that actually moves a bullet of similar weight to a 45acp at 9mm velocity.
[QUOTE=DrMortician;25805641]FBI loads are what became the 40S&W. Link me one factory load that actually moves a bullet of similar weight to a 45acp at 9mm velocity.[/QUOTE] Lets skip on off to wikipedia annnnd oh look. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10mm[/url] A 230 gr bullet moving at 1,120 ft/s. This is compared to: .45 230 gr moving at 830 ft/s and 9mm 147 gr 1210 ft/s (147 being the heaviest, but not the slowest, 9mm round) Or we can always look at the 10mm 200 gr bullet which is accelerated to 1300 ft/s. Which is still as heavy as .45 rounds and is moving as fast as a 115 gr 9mm.
Anyone have any experience with the K31? I was thinking of buying one as my first bolt action rifle. [img]http://vintagerifle.net/images/SwissK31/K31163Walnut/K31163RightSide.jpg[/img]
[QUOTE=Gordy H.;25805917]Anyone have any experience with the K31? I was thinking of buying one as my first bolt action rifle. [img_thumb]http://vintagerifle.net/images/SwissK31/K31163Walnut/K31163RightSide.jpg[/img_thumb][/QUOTE] Fire ~2,000 rounds of .22LR first. Buy an older Ruger 10/22 or a Savage 60. You'll get a flinch if you start with larger calibers.
[QUOTE=GunFox;25805718]Lets skip on off to wikipedia annnnd oh look. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10mm[/url] A 230 gr bullet moving at 1,120 ft/s. This is compared to: .45 230 gr moving at 830 ft/s and 9mm 147 gr 1210 ft/s (147 being the heaviest, but not the slowest, 9mm round) Or we can always look at the 10mm 200 gr bullet which is accelerated to 1300 ft/s. Which is still as heavy as .45 rounds and is moving as fast as a 115 gr 9mm.[/QUOTE] Those are not ANY loads you will find offered by any major manufacturer. That's what the 10mm is capable of. Factory loadings for the 10mm are equal to the loadings they also offer in 40S&W. No factory manufacturer makes a 230gr 10mm. Stop using the wiki, and go to the gun store. Or better yet, go to the sites of companies who actually offer the round commercially. Hornady, Corbon, Remington, Blazer, Federal... The list goes on. Federal is by far the weakest. [quote]Federal Premium Personal Defense Ammunition 10mm Auto 180 Grain Hydra-Shok Jacketed Hollow Point Box of 20 Muzzle Velocity: 1030 fps Muzzle Energy: 424 ft/lb[/quote] Lets compare it to their 40S&W load. [quote]Federal Premium Personal Defense Ammunition 40 S&W 180 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point Box of 20 Muzzle Velocity: 990 fps Muzzle Energy: 392 ft. lbs.[/quote] Now lets look at hornady. 40 [quote]Hornady Custom Ammunition 40 S&W 155 Grain XTP Jacketed Hollow Point Box of 20 Muzzle Velocity: 1180 fps Muzzle Energy: 479 ft. lbs.[/quote] 10mm [quote]Hornady Custom Ammunition 10mm Auto 155 Grain XTP Jacketed Hollow Point Box of 20 Muzzle Velocity: 1265 fps Muzzle Energy: 551 ft. lbs.[/quote] [/quote] How about Corbon? 40 [quote]Cor-Bon DPX Ammunition 40 S&W 140 Grain Barnes XPB Hollow Point Lead-Free Box of 20 Muzzle Velocity: 1200 fps Muzzle Energy: 448 ft. lbs[/quote] 10mm [quote]Cor-Bon DPX Ammunition 10mm Auto 155 Grain Barnes XPB Hollow Point Lead-Free Box of 20 Muzzle Velocity: 1200 fps Muzzle Energy: 496 ft. lbs[/quote] The differences between the two don't even make a difference in real life applications. These are all extremely watered down 10mm loads and "hot" 40S&W loads. Now lets look at some real 10mm. [quote]SwampFox Premium 10mm 155gr Hornady XTP 1450fps 710 ft/lbs energy[/quote] [quote]Buffalo Bore 10 mm 180 gr. Jacketed Hollow Point 1,350fps/M.E. 728 ft. lbs.[/quote] [quote]Double Tap 10mm 180gr. Controlled Exp. JHP 1350fps/ 728 ft/lbs[/quote] [quote]ReedsAmmo 10mm 165g Golden Saber 1350FPS Energy: 668 Ft-Lbs[/quote] So as you can see, only "boutique" ammo makers even approach what the 10mm was intended to do. In real life when you buy 10mm at your local gun shop, you are going to get a 40S&W load in a longer case, and pay more for it.
That's funny, I see these guys for sale regularly: [url]http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=158&osCsid=4247aea4b1f350771eb9f36599ac1766[/url] I almost bought some of their .45 stuff just to see how it performed at the range.
[QUOTE=GunFox;25805718]Lets skip on off to wikipedia annnnd oh look. [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/10mm[/url] A 230 gr bullet moving at 1,120 ft/s. This is compared to: .45 230 gr moving at 830 ft/s and 9mm 147 gr 1210 ft/s (147 being the heaviest, but not the slowest, 9mm round) Or we can always look at the 10mm 200 gr bullet which is accelerated to 1300 ft/s. Which is still as heavy as .45 rounds and is moving as fast as a 115 gr 9mm.[/QUOTE] Also all the data on the wiki was supplied by a boutique ammo manufacturer. "Test barrel length: 4.6 in. For 6 inch barrel, add ~100 FPS[3] Source: DoubleTap Ammunition C.I.P.[4] S.A.A.M.I.[5]" [editline]2nd November 2010[/editline] [QUOTE=GunFox;25806413]That's funny, I see these guys for sale regularly: [url]http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=158&osCsid=4247aea4b1f350771eb9f36599ac1766[/url] I almost bought some of their .45 stuff just to see how it performed at the range.[/QUOTE] Yep, it exists, but that is not a factory load, that is a custom boutique load. The only factory 10mm load that's even barely respectable and still exists today is the 10mm winchester silvertip hollow point. Which moves a 175gr bullet at 1290fps. (from a 5" 1911 that is.) Hell, I mean look at this. [quote]Double Tap .40 S&W 135gr Nosler JHP 1420fps 605 ft/lbs[/quote] That loading murders any factory 10mm loading. [b]There's also substantial evidence that double tap lies about their 10mm velocities...[/b] Here's one of MANY disappointing chronograph readings. [quote] DT 135gr = 1463 ft/sec DT 200gr XTP= 1089 ft/sec DT 180 XTP = 1211 ft/sec Win Silvertips 175gr = 1189ft/sec Federal Hydra 180gr = 1070ft/sec[/quote]
[QUOTE=DrMortician;25806427]Also all the data on the wiki was supplied by a boutique ammo manufacturer. "Test barrel length: 4.6 in. For 6 inch barrel, add ~100 FPS[3] Source: DoubleTap Ammunition C.I.P.[4] S.A.A.M.I.[5]" [editline]2nd November 2010[/editline] Yep, it exists, but that is not a factory load, that is a custom boutique load. The only factory 10mm load that's even barely respectable and still exists today is the 10mm winchester silvertip hollow point. Which moves a 175gr bullet at 1290fps. (from a 5" 1911 that is.) Hell, I mean look at this. That loading murders any factory 10mm loading. [b]There's also substantial evidence that double tap lies about their 10mm velocities...[/b] Here's one of MANY disappointing chronograph readings.[/QUOTE] Except my original point was that HOT loaded 10mm was fucked up. None of these rounds are +P. They are all within factory pressure specifications for 10mm auto pistols. They are still the default factory loads, whether or not factories actually default to that loading.
[QUOTE=GunFox;25806550]Except my original point was that HOT loaded 10mm was fucked up. None of these rounds are +P. They are all within factory pressure specifications for 10mm auto pistols. They are still the default factory loads, whether or not factories actually default to that loading.[/QUOTE] Yes it does matter, because every major manufacturer (I.E. what you will find at your gun shop) is only going to stock these "weak" loadings. If you want real 10mm you have to mail order it or handload it yourself. My point is that, while the 10mm is capable of high performance only a small number of small companies load it to spec. Everyone else loads it equal to their 40S&W offering. You're defending the 10mm like you own one. I have my glock 20c sitting here on my desk loaded with doubletap 180gr, and a spare mag with 155gr factory hornady. The best "magnum autoloading handgun" round is the 357sig by far and large. Almost any factory loading of it will be to full spec. I especially love the gold dot loading which chronos FAR higher than what the boxflap says. Your "practice/range" ammo will be loaded to full spec as well. So you can practice with the same POI as your defensive loading. No it doesn't match a 10mm, but a 10mm is like a muscle car and takes a lot of time and effort and is only good for people who are willing to invest the time and money into getting the extra bit of capability the round offers.
[QUOTE=DrMortician;25806604]Yes it does matter, because every major manufacturer (I.E. what you will find at your gun shop) is only going to stock these "weak" loadings. If you want real 10mm you have to mail order it or handload it yourself. My point is that, while the 10mm is capable of high performance only a small number of small companies load it to spec. Everyone else loads it equal to their 40S&W offering. You're defending the 10mm like you own one. I have my glock 20c sitting here on my desk loaded with doubletap 180gr, and a spare mag with 155gr factory hornady.[/QUOTE] So you don't want hot loaded 10mm, you just want 10mm loaded to actual spec. Which makes us in agreement.
[QUOTE=GunFox;25806659]So you don't want hot loaded 10mm, you just want 10mm loaded to actual spec. Which makes us in agreement.[/QUOTE] As long as those specs will drop a deer as well as a perp, absolutely. Also, for factory loadings the 200gr hornady load at 1050fps isn't actually that bad of a load and usually chronos higher than the boxflap. That'd be what I'd recommend for factory ammo in a 10mm. It's good for hunting deer as well.
Alright, so a friend of mine out in Idaho hunts problematic bears for the state... at night. He uses a .300 Win Mag custom-built Rem 700 (what with the thumbhole stock and the rarely-used iron sights), loads of nightvision equipment, and he carries a .44 loaded with 300 grain JHP's just in case. He's considering getting a .460 VXR in place of the .44, although I told him it's sorta pointless. Am I right here?
[QUOTE=Gordy H.;25805917]Anyone have any experience with the K31? I was thinking of buying one as my first bolt action rifle. [img_thumb]http://vintagerifle.net/images/SwissK31/K31163Walnut/K31163RightSide.jpg[/img_thumb][/QUOTE] Lots of people here swear by them but I've never tried one myself. It'd be interesting to have just because of the straight pull.
[QUOTE=BURN DOWN;25806852]Alright, so a friend of mine out in Idaho hunts problematic bears for the state... at night. He uses a .300 Win Mag custom-built Rem 700 (what with the thumbhole stock and the rarely-used iron sights), loads of nightvision equipment, and he carries a .44 loaded with 300 grain JHP's just in case. He's considering getting a .460 VXR in place of the .44, although I told him it's sorta pointless. Am I right here?[/QUOTE] Tell him to get a 454 casull, load it up with 400+gr bullets. If the handgun is mainly a defensive option and he's going to be using the rifle mostly, tell him to get the ruger SRH alaskan 2.5". I used to have that gun, and while it sucks for high velocity light bullets, it's a BEAST for the super heavyweight lead bullets in the 454 casull. Especially since it holds 6 rounds as opposed to the 5 that the 460S&Ws will hold. Link him this: [url]http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-SRHAlaskan454.htm[/url] And have him run this ammo in it. [url]http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=39&products_id=148&osCsid=ntimtg8u5d7pgb98vaqme4rf35[/url] [quote]Double tap .454 Casull 400gr WFNGC Hardcast 1125fps from a 2.5" Ruger Alaskan[/quote] That's an excellent handy gun that's very compact and easy to carry in a back pocket with a pair of jeans. And it works great for launching very heavy bullets. It's also far more accurate than you would think, I shot better with it than I do my current 7.5" Ruger 454. With a 460S&W you're limited to 5 rounds, and a very very heavy massive gun. It's mostly intended for high velocities, and to look pretty on a specs sheet. If he's just dealing with small-medium sized bears, a glock 20 10mm with 200gr XTPs is a better option. You don't need much gun for smaller bears, it's all about shot placement.
Oh look, another pointless argument in the firearms thread. Seems like the only time this thread is active is when there's something to argue about... Seriously, I think most everyone got what Gunfox was saying without feeling the need to split hairs.
[QUOTE=DrMortician;25807202]You don't need much gun for smaller bears, it's all about shot placement.[/QUOTE] He mainly gets after larger black bears and grizzlies. Let me check to see if I have any of his photos...
[QUOTE=BURN DOWN;25807416]He mainly gets after larger black bears and grizzlies. Let me check to see if I have any of his photos...[/QUOTE] Burn you should hunt down the guys who stole your shed with it.
[QUOTE=BURN DOWN;25807416]He mainly gets after larger black bears and grizzlies. Let me check to see if I have any of his photos...[/QUOTE] 454 is the best option then. He should ditch his 300winmag in favor of a 45-70 lever gun. 300winmag doesn't have a big enough or heavy enough bullet to get the job done humanely unless it's a perfect shot through the skull. I suppose if he is only taking extremely long range shots it's fine for his safety, but I'd still prefer a bigger heavier bullet for something like that. [img]http://128.171.62.162/hawthorn-engineering/thr/marlin/xlr01.jpg[/img] Perfect bear gun.
[IMG]http://i56.tinypic.com/ngau0m.jpg[/IMG] Here we go. This is the only one he's had to use his .44 on. He put three rounds into it, but the last one is what stopped it.
[QUOTE=BURN DOWN;25807639][img_thumb]http://i56.tinypic.com/ngau0m.jpg[/img_thumb] Here we go. This is the only one he's had to use his .44 on. He put three rounds into it, but the last one is what stopped it. [/QUOTE] One hardcast 400gr from a 454 would have been able to DRT it. Hell, you said he's using hollow points in that 44 mag? He needs to be using hardcast bullets for this kind of stuff or he's going to get himself killed. Have him grab a box of this until he can find a bigger gun. [url]http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=48[/url]
[QUOTE=DrMortician;25807534]454 is the best option then. He should ditch his 300winmag in favor of a 45-70 lever gun. 300winmag doesn't have a big enough or heavy enough bullet to get the job done humanely unless it's a perfect shot through the skull. I suppose if he is only taking extremely long range shots it's fine for his safety, but I'd still prefer a bigger heavier bullet for something like that. [img_thumb]http://128.171.62.162/hawthorn-engineering/thr/marlin/xlr01.jpg[/img_thumb] Perfect bear gun.[/QUOTE] In his own words, '.300 Winchester Mag will drop anything on the North American continent in one hit, 'cept for Buffalo and Polars.'. He takes most of his shots at a ~400 yard range. [editline]2nd November 2010[/editline] [QUOTE=DrMortician;25807713]One hardcast 400gr from a 454 would have been able to DRT it. Hell, you said he's using hollow points in that 44 mag? He needs to be using hardcast bullets for this kind of stuff or he's going to get himself killed. Have him grab a box of this until he can find a bigger gun. [url]http://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=48[/url][/QUOTE] Thanks, sending this link to him now.
[QUOTE=GunFox;25806413]That's funny, I see these guys for sale regularly: [url][URL]http://www.doubletapammo.com/php/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=21_25&products_id=158&osCsid=4247aea4b1f350771eb9f36599ac1766[/URL][/url] I almost bought some of their .45 stuff just to see how it performed at the range.[/QUOTE] I was thinking last night about how all the reloading bullets I see always look odd. Then I remember they aren't jacketed. I won't fire plain lead bullets through my guns. [img]http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/GSG5Host1/ammo/thunderbolt_barrel.jpg[/img] [editline]2nd November 2010[/editline] [QUOTE=DrMortician;25807534]454 is the best option then. He should ditch his 300winmag in favor of a 45-70 lever gun. 300winmag doesn't have a big enough or heavy enough bullet to get the job done humanely unless it's a perfect shot through the skull. I suppose if he is only taking extremely long range shots it's fine for his safety, but I'd still prefer a bigger heavier bullet for something like that. [img_thumb][URL]http://128.171.62.162/hawthorn-engineering/thr/marlin/xlr01.jpg[/URL][/img_thumb] Perfect bear gun.[/QUOTE] I bought a powder scale a while back, and there were several .45-70 rounds inside the box. My head exploded at the thought. .223 on the right for comparison: [IMG]http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b100/89Sunbird/DSC_0001-1.jpg[/IMG]
Outtakes from the new Magpul DVD [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0K4Vpp6UFI[/media]
I always disliked Magpul, for some reason. I just can't quite put my finger on why, though.
I can't get the Shotgun DVD in Norway :frown: Which is kinda bad as it is the perfect christmas present for guy in my class who loves his 870
Atleast you won't have to build your own fucking workshop and almost threaten the schools headmaster to to get a new lathe (Totally new ridiculously ugly school, yet the classes that are doing useful stuff like welding and milling and such doesn't get new equipment) Don't whine about distance. One guy in class is from Arendal, while another is from a border town near Russia. I'm from Modum, wich is near Drammen. So to get home I have to take the train for 6 hours.
[QUOTE=DrMortician;25807534]454 is the best option then. He should ditch his 300winmag in favor of a 45-70 lever gun. 300winmag doesn't have a big enough or heavy enough bullet to get the job done humanely unless it's a perfect shot through the skull. I suppose if he is only taking extremely long range shots it's fine for his safety, but I'd still prefer a bigger heavier bullet for something like that. [img_thumb]http://128.171.62.162/hawthorn-engineering/thr/marlin/xlr01.jpg[/img_thumb] Perfect bear gun.[/QUOTE] That gun is hideous. Scopes just don't belong on lever action rifles and that stock and foregrip is disgusting.
Sorry, you need to Log In to post a reply to this thread.