The student debt crisis, and why overhauling higher education should be important. - General

If you're going to university to improve your persona, you're doing it wrong. I've only been on my course for a month so far, and my attitude has already caused me to receive interest from two large companies, one being Valve. What I lack is experience. I'm at university to gain experience, and to enjoy the lifestyle. Not to learn to be creative, or to learn logical thinking skills. [editline]4th November 2011[/editline] And that's why art degrees are so restrictive. You gain experience in the arts; there's not many positions (Other than teachers, art critics, and artists) that will require that experience.

I completely agree with this. I'm studying Information Systems at Marietta College here in Ohio. Seeing as its a private college the tuition is extremely high, fortunately I commute so I cut that in half. Of course, I'm still paying $26,000 a year in student loans, not to mention other government loans. And what am I required to take? [quote] N) H: Fine Arts 2 (R) > Take 3 credits of approved Fine Arts "R" courses. Credits: 0 N) 3 CREDIT HOURS IN APPROVED ENSEMBLES ___________________________________________________________ 3 credits N) 3 CREDITS IN APPLIED MUSIC ___________________________________________________________ 3 credits N) 3 CREDITS IN DANCE ___________________________________________________________ 3 credits N) 3 CREDITS IN FORENSICS-INTERPRETATION ___________________________________________________________ 3 credits N) 3 CREDITS OF FINE ARTS ____________________________________________________________ 1 course [/quote] "Fine arts" I'm in an Art Appreciation class right now. Appreciation? Really? I "appreciate" art. Give me my credits and the A. Of course, after I pass Art Appreciation I still have to take another "Fine arts" course. Oh yeah, and if you're interested that quote'd bit came right out of my program evaluation.

[QUOTE=Jax Strife;33119974]I completely agree with this. I'm studying Information Systems at Marietta College here in Ohio. Seeing as its a private college the tuition is extremely high, fortunately I commute so I cut that in half. Of course, I'm still paying $26,000 a year in student loans, not to mention other government loans. And what am I required to take? "Fine arts" I'm in an Art Appreciation class right now. Appreciation? Really? I "appreciate" art. Give me my credits and the A. Of course, after I pass Art Appreciation I still have to take another "Fine arts" course. Oh yeah, and if you're interested that quote'd bit came right out of my program evaluation.[/QUOTE] Why are you forced to take the fine arts? In my country, 'arts' refers to everything from fine arts, economics, psychology and so on.

What our higher education problems boil down to is the student loan system. The emphasis is placed on enrolling people so the institutions can suck up money regardless of whether they pass and the banks can rack up loans that students can't legally discharge, ever. It's federally guaranteed profit for the banks, which is why Goldman Sachs bought up such a huge share of for-profit universities and geared them entirely toward enrolling as many people as possible. The job market is horrible and degrees are nearly useless, so everybody is coming out with ever-compounding debt they can never hope to get rid of. And even if they do get jobs, so much of their pay is going to the banks that they might as well be working at McDonalds for all the money they have left. All that money that should be contributing to the economy is just going into the bank's coffers. Higher education has gone from a way to get ahead and get a good job to a way to doom yourself to debt the rest of your life. This is the problem with post-secondary schooling, and we can't solve any of the other problems until it ceases to be a purely moneymaking enterprise. The only thing that should stop people from going to college is their own stupidity or laziness. The whole thing needs to go 100% public and kick the banks and Goldman Sachs the fuck out of the system.

There needs to be more self-education resources. Like open-source education. That would be badass. For example if you have motivation you can learn visual and audio on your own. More subjects should be taught like that with resources free and easy to access. Then maybe to get a legit cert you just take a test and if you pass you get the cert. This would allow people to study at their own pace and at any time. Sadly everyone hates communism so I guess this isn't happening anytime soon. [editline]5th November 2011[/editline] There needs to be more self-education resources. Like open-source education. That would be badass. For example if you have motivation you can learn visual and audio on your own. More subjects should be taught like that with resources free and easy to access. Then maybe to get a legit cert you just take a test and if you pass you get the cert. This would allow people to study at their own pace and at any time. Sadly everyone hates communism so I guess this isn't happening anytime soon.

[QUOTE=AceOfDivine;33138842]There needs to be more self-education resources. Like open-source education. That would be badass. For example if you have motivation you can learn visual and audio on your own. More subjects should be taught like that with resources free and easy to access. Then maybe to get a legit cert you just take a test and if you pass you get the cert. This would allow people to study at their own pace and at any time. Sadly everyone hates communism so I guess this isn't happening anytime soon. [/QUOTE] People acquire certifications all the time over the internet.

[QUOTE=Contag;33127134]Why are you forced to take the fine arts? In my country, 'arts' refers to everything from fine arts, economics, psychology and so on.[/QUOTE] Arts, at Marietta anyway, is reserved for music, painting, photography, acting/theatre, the "arts". Economics, psychology, sociology, you name it have their own section. We're forced because it's a Liberal Arts college, and they try to create more "rounded, well versed, cultured" individuals.

[QUOTE=Sh33p;33112604]That's a stupid argument. Any time spent learning about art for a physics degree is wasted when it could be used for relevant material.[/QUOTE] But that's also silly. Time spent learning isn't wasted. It broadens your horizons and gives you more information. I believe it is important to require students to try different things. Notice I'm not saying you should be forced to take a specific art or science outside of your major, but you should be required to do something outside of your area of study. It makes people more rounded and dynamic which is important to real-world careers. [editline]7th November 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=Jax Strife;33119974]I completely agree with this. I'm studying Information Systems at Marietta College here in Ohio. Seeing as its a private college the tuition is extremely high, fortunately I commute so I cut that in half. Of course, I'm still paying $26,000 a year in student loans, not to mention other government loans. And what am I required to take? "Fine arts" I'm in an Art Appreciation class right now. Appreciation? Really? I "appreciate" art. Give me my credits and the A. Of course, after I pass Art Appreciation I still have to take another "Fine arts" course. Oh yeah, and if you're interested that quote'd bit came right out of my program evaluation.[/QUOTE] It's 3 credit hours though. You chose art appreciation? Why? You don't seem to enjoy the class. I'm jumping to the conclusion (and please correct me if I am wrong), but it seems to me you just took the class to get an A and get it over with. Again, I think it's absolutely critical to take courses in other subjects. The importance of art education has already been shown to have a significant impact on early childhood development. Maybe it doesn't have a significant impact on young adults, but at least it gives you knowledge. I also have a fine-arts requirement, but I'm actually focusing on taking classes I think I might enjoy.

[QUOTE=Edthefirst;33172863] It's 3 credit hours though. You chose art appreciation? Why? You don't seem to enjoy the class. I'm jumping to the conclusion (and please correct me if I am wrong), but it seems to me you just took the class to get an A and get it over with. [/QUOTE] Precisely! Art Appreciation is one of the easiest choices. According to my friends, basic drawing, theatre appreciation, photography, almost every other course that satisfies the requirement requires a lot of outside class work. In Theatre Appreciation you actually have to act, and in the drawing/painting classes they're expecting artists. I have not met many people who got a good grade in most art classes without being an art major or have had past experience drawing or painting. I had interest in hand-building course, but my friends who took it, basically told me not to. The class demands so many hours out of class actually working on the projects if you want to pass the class.

I pay ~$6000 a quarter for 16 hours of classes, here in Ohio. The biggest problem with higher education in America, at least, isn't that you have to take at times frivolous classes (they give you a wider breadth of education, so just take classes because you want to, and work hard towards them. Remember, it's this or McDonald's), It's also not the cost of education; American College's kick ass. I'm at a state school, but we still rank in the top 60 international schools. The problem is debt repayment. Here in America, if you declare bankruptcy, your student loans aren't forgiven. If you die, they default to your next of kin. They need to stop treating it as something special; it's just money after all.

[QUOTE=macerator;33174624]I pay ~$6000 a quarter for 16 hours of classes, here in Ohio. The biggest problem with higher education in America, at least, isn't that you have to take at times frivolous classes (they give you a wider breadth of education, so just take classes because you want to, and work hard towards them. Remember, it's this or McDonald's), It's also not the cost of education; American College's kick ass. I'm at a state school, but we still rank in the top 60 international schools. The problem is debt repayment. Here in America, if you declare bankruptcy, your student loans aren't forgiven. If you die, they default to your next of kin. They need to stop treating it as something special; it's just money after all.[/QUOTE] Really, the cost of education isn't an issue? I go to a university that is consistently ranked in the top 60 internationally (8th in psychology, and 15th in medicine). I will pay approximately $12,000 in tuition over the course of my undergraduate degree. If I decide not to pay immediately, the government provides an interest-free loan that has scaled repayments after earning more than $45,000 USD a year. The government provides up to ~$100,000 in loans, interest free. If you do not earn more than 45k, you do not have to make repayments. The government also pays for graduate and postgraduate research degrees. You, on the other hand, will have to pay approximately $100,000 for your undergraduate tuition, assuming four quarters for four years at 16k each.

the problem is banks buying out a lot of schools because student loans are so profitable and risk free since they can't even be discharged. [editline]7th November 2011[/editline] or rather, one of the problems

[QUOTE=Used Car Salesman;33130714]What our higher education problems boil down to is the student loan system. The emphasis is placed on enrolling people so the institutions can suck up money regardless of whether they pass and the banks can rack up loans that students can't legally discharge, ever. It's federally guaranteed profit for the banks, which is why Goldman Sachs bought up such a huge share of for-profit universities and geared them entirely toward enrolling as many people as possible. The job market is horrible and degrees are nearly useless, so everybody is coming out with ever-compounding debt they can never hope to get rid of. And even if they do get jobs, so much of their pay is going to the banks that they might as well be working at McDonalds for all the money they have left. All that money that should be contributing to the economy is just going into the bank's coffers. Higher education has gone from a way to get ahead and get a good job to a way to doom yourself to debt the rest of your life. This is the problem with post-secondary schooling, and we can't solve any of the other problems until it ceases to be a purely moneymaking enterprise. The only thing that should stop people from going to college is their own stupidity or laziness. The whole thing needs to go 100% public and kick the banks and Goldman Sachs the fuck out of the system.[/QUOTE] This, oh man, this. I'm thinking whether or not I should succumb to a pyramid scheme or try to survive on my own. Because I'd think all those years could be invested in something more productive. The traditional way of going to college is now nil and void but my old school parents and peers still think it's a good idea without a hint or doubt about the system

lmao good luck getting a job without a degree and even if you do, your income will be substantially higher in that field if you have a bachelor's degree

[QUOTE=Lazor;33176394]lmao good luck getting a job without a degree and even if you do, your income will be substantially higher in that field if you have a bachelor's degree[/QUOTE] The point of getting a degree when the economy is in such turmoil as it is. Something is telling me I should invest my money into something better than to squander it off to a risky venture like getting a degree when there is no guarantee of a payoff in the end. All that to work a cubicle job, slaving off for years to pay off your bank isn't everyone's ideal lifestyle you know.

[QUOTE=sHiBaN;33177165]The point of getting a degree when the economy is in such turmoil as it is. Something is telling me I should invest my money into something better than to squander it off to a risky venture like getting a degree when there is no guarantee of a payoff in the end. All that to work a cubicle job, slaving off for years to pay off your bank isn't everyone's ideal lifestyle you know.[/QUOTE] hey guess what. not every job is a shitty cubicle job! if you seriously have an alternative to college, then good on you, but i seriously doubt you have a viable one. especially not one that's a "less risky venture" than a degree. you don't even need to go to college immediately after high school. there's no time limit on going to college, and you don't have to go, but your gross mis-characterization of what college is and what it can do for you doesn't really lend you much credibility.

[QUOTE=sHiBaN;33177165]All that to work a cubicle job, slaving off for years to pay off your bank isn't everyone's ideal lifestyle you know.[/QUOTE] Don't know about you, but for some really odd reason I'm looking forward to a cubicle job where I can sit and program to my hearts content.

[QUOTE=sHiBaN;33177165]The point of getting a degree when the economy is in such turmoil as it is. Something is telling me I should invest my money into something better than to squander it off to a risky venture like getting a degree when there is no guarantee of a payoff in the end. All that to work a cubicle job, slaving off for years to pay off your bank isn't everyone's ideal lifestyle you know.[/QUOTE] if your higher education is a debt-laden deindividualizing stepping stone to corporate conformity then your higher education is fucked

3 quarters this year ~18k, Then we switch to semesters, so I'm not sure how the costs will adjust

[QUOTE=Lazor;33177492]hey guess what. not every job is a shitty cubicle job! if you seriously have an alternative to college, then good on you, but i seriously doubt you have a viable one. especially not one that's a "less risky venture" than a degree. you don't even need to go to college immediately after high school. there's no time limit on going to college, and you don't have to go, but your gross mis-characterization of what college is and what it can do for you doesn't really lend you much credibility.[/QUOTE] Easy to say when you have money right. I'm the first of my family to ever go to college and I'm not even sure if I can continue because I can't even sustain myself or my family for the matter. It's nice to stay optimistic, but reality is at my doorstep here. There are bigger priorities I have to take care of and if college is going to be a huge burden on me, then what's it to you? Not everyone lives on the same stable line as you so, obviously there are going to be differences of opinion. I really do think the United States educational system is totally corrupt and needs reform. Everyone wonders why the economy is so sluggish, well education is the root of it

[QUOTE=Contag;32994152]I can get a BA and JD at the highest ranked university in Australia for $45,000 worth of tuition. Of course, our undergraduate degrees are only three years. How many subjects are necessary to complete your degree in the American system? I think that it can definitely provider a broader perspective, and is worthwhile [B]as long as[/B] it is not a significant financial detriment, as it tends to be in the US. A semester studying animal physiology has certainly been interesting and enlightening, while I'm doing my Arts course. I think you're completely missing the real issues here. You spend years in a university doing subjects that are related to your degree anyhow. Even if you wiped of 25% of subjects, the costs still tend to be obscene from what I've heard of the American system. [editline]28th October 2011[/editline] Also, saying that classes like philosophy have no real life applications show a pretty poor understanding of philosophy and how it relates to the world. I'd agree if you said African Drum Music, though.[/QUOTE] The average cost for in-state tuition at a public university where I live is around $9000 a year, but it can be 2 to 3 times that if you study in a different state, or go to a private university.

[QUOTE=Jax Strife;33173480]Precisely! Art Appreciation is one of the easiest choices. According to my friends, basic drawing, theatre appreciation, photography, almost every other course that satisfies the requirement requires a lot of outside class work. In Theatre Appreciation you actually have to act, and in the drawing/painting classes they're expecting artists. I have not met many people who got a good grade in most art classes without being an art major or have had past experience drawing or painting. I had interest in hand-building course, but my friends who took it, basically told me not to. The class demands so many hours out of class actually working on the projects if you want to pass the class.[/QUOTE] And that's a perfectly reasonable argument. I do disagree with the whole aspect of forcing students to take a arts requirement if it will detract from their area of focus. It's a damn shame that the arts get that kind of association simply because people are forced to take really involved classes they never wanted to in the first place. There needs to be a balance somewhere. I think it's important to take art classes. My high school was solely focused on math and science and as a result my art requirement from high school was just a year of drawing. I love that I had the ability to take really advanced math and science courses (just a little bragging but I finished Calculus II and III with 8 hours of university credit by the end of my junior year), but I would have loved to taken some more art. [editline]8th November 2011[/editline] [QUOTE=jeimizu;33179374]The average cost for in-state tuition at a public university where I live is around $9000 a year, but it can be 2 to 3 times that if you study in a different state, or go to a private university.[/QUOTE] The University of Georgia, where I go, charges me $8000 for tuition for 15 hours of class. Fortunately for me the state of Georgia covers that cost through the HOPE scholarship. Unfortunately, that's about all it covers. Total cost of attending UGA for an in-state student is $21000. So if the person gets HOPE scholarship and nothing else, they still have to front up $13000 a year.

[QUOTE=DOG-GY;33114931]how can you not see the impact [B]art has on science[/B] and science on art[/QUOTE] Can you point out some examples (not sarcastic, I'm interested)

I am very glad UK universities don't force you to do random classes entirely unrelated to your degree

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;33201682]Can you point out some examples (not sarcastic, I'm interested)[/QUOTE] Are you talking about fine art?

[QUOTE=Contag;33201913]Are you talking about fine art?[/QUOTE] Just in general

[QUOTE=DainBramageStudios;33203195]Just in general[/QUOTE] every field that relates to culture and uses the scientific method

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