Veteran of the SS Wiking division meets reenactors of SS Wiking - General

[QUOTE=Timebomb575;48784595]this is kind of a loaded question dude I mean of course there is, and there are (rarely) people that do hold far-right beliefs in reenacting, but as zilla noted, Axis groups tend to be pretty hypersensitive to that kind of thing specifically because of people like you getting on their cases about it.[/QUOTE] Pardon me if I don't find the, 'Its obviously a source of criticism so they are hypersensitive about it' very persuasive since in just about every time you might say that its pretty off the mark. I've never met these people or attended these events. All I can speak to is the subtle hint of, 'The South was good' at confederate renactments which is what im exporting here. Maybe Its different. And by the way, it isn't a loaded question, its getting at the source of my discomfort.

It's pretty damn interesting to hear a story or few from WW2 vets, that was a pretty good opportunity Zill, thanks for sharing.

[QUOTE=Flameon;48784628]Pardon me if I don't find the, 'Its obviously a source of criticism so they are hypersensitive about it' very persuasive since in just about every time you might say that its pretty off the mark. I've never met these people or attended these events. All I can speak to is the subtle hint of, [B]'The South was good' at confederate renactments [/B]which is what im exporting here. Maybe Its different. And by the way, it isn't a loaded question, its getting at I the source of my discomfort.[/QUOTE] As a Confederate reenactor, I take quiet a great deal of, "nope" from this. Most of the guys who roleplay as Confederates, including myself, do it because they have ancestors that fought for the confederacy, and want to reenact in honor of their ancestors.

I would dress up as a nazi cause they had by far the coolest looking uniforms.

[QUOTE=Flameon;48784628]Pardon me if I don't find the, 'Its obviously a source of criticism so they are hypersensitive about it' very persuasive since in just about every time you might say that its pretty off the mark. I've never met these people or attended these events. All I can speak to is the subtle hint of, 'The South was good' at confederate renactments which is what im exporting here. Maybe Its different. And by the way, it isn't a loaded question, its getting at the source of my discomfort.[/QUOTE] You literally know nothing about reenactors. Like, they don't internalize the views of the people they play. They do it because they appreciate history. Its not like they're slowly being transformed in to real nazis. You're just taking your displeasure with Confederate reenactors (likely Moustacheman specifically since he's arguably the most prominent), and condemning all reenactors who aren't playing the roles you deem fit. [editline]28th September 2015[/editline] I'd love to do reenactments. Never had an interest in Civil War Era. But WWI and WWII would be interesting. Also stuff like Ren-Fairs and the like, while rarely historically accurate, are also enjoyable. Been to a handful of those, though its been half a life since I last was at one.

I mean the most "apologetic" thing I've heard from guys in the group is when it came to disorderly conduct+punishments comparing German/Soviet. But even then it was "I guess X group of guys wasn't as bad as Y but it was still Nazis and Soviets"

Either the old man doesn't understand most of the questions, or he's avoiding answer them fully for a number of reasons. Given him being former SS, I'm more inclined to think there's something sinister about his passed.

Okay, seriously, look. The guy being interviewed in the video was just over 17. My age. He also had no real choice when he got into Wiking. Think about that for a second. That's not uncommon in this era, and there was a [I]massive[/I] portion of fighting men/women in WWII who had the choice of being put to the front or being declared a traitor.

[QUOTE=Zang-Pog;48784421]What's so ignorant about that? Thinking that hurting others is bad is ignorant?[/QUOTE] To believe that ending warfare is as simple as throwing down our guns and hugging each other is ignorant, and unrealistic. [editline]28th September 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Zang-Pog;48784522]What he is trying to tell you is that you're more than welcome to have your fun, but if somebody calls you a nazi for dressing up as one can you really blame them?[/QUOTE] Have you never heard of reenactments? So we should just poke our eyes out to never gaze upon the Swastika for fear that we turn into murderous monsters instantly? Mankind is more resiliant than that. [editline]28th September 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Zang-Pog;48784527]Why are you taking this so personally :v:[/QUOTE] Because he like reenactments because they are fun as hell to portray living history to others? And because you're being uneedlessly critical of what one man does simply because he decides to reenact as an SS Trooper. So by your right, if I personally decided to go into reenacting as a Confederate soldier, would you call me a total racist by default for what the soldiers fought for so, so long ago?

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;48784565]a hyper-organized army was crushed by a relatively hodge-podge one is fascinating.[/QUOTE] Like, I know I have some bias, but I am pretty sure Soviet army did not entirely consist of just some random dudes with guns who basically outnumbered Germans in human wave attacks till they won. That's just some Wehraboo wankery.

[QUOTE=Flameon;48784628]Pardon me if I don't find the, 'Its obviously a source of criticism so they are hypersensitive about it' very persuasive since in just about every time you might say that its [B]pretty off the mark.[/B] [/quote] what is your basis for saying this [quote] I've never met these people or attended these events. All I can speak to is the subtle hint of, 'The South was good' at confederate renactments which is what im exporting here. Maybe Its different. [/quote] ok see heres the thing, I'm not a reenactor, but something that you kind of come to learn when looking in depth at a particular part of history (war in particular) is that while the organizations these guys were fighting for were obviously some of the worst humanity has ever had to offer, the guys themselves frequently werent. not every confederate soldier wanted to lynch free black people, and not every wehrmact trooper wanted to gas jews people like to take "hey wait according to a lot of accounts it seems like most of these guys were just fighting to defend their country or were forcibly conscripted and weren't extremists who supported the awful shit their governments did" and misconstrue that as "nazis did nothing wrong" when it definitely isn't the case [quote] And by the way, it isn't a loaded question, its getting at the source of my discomfort.[/QUOTE] it [I]is[/I] a loaded question because it only has one answer that doesn't make the person answering it look like an idiot

It is pretty fucked up that he was drafted into the army at the age of 17 to fight for a dictatorship. I feel like there is a way to honor him that doesn't incorporate the kind of joyous comradery that comes with renacting his unit. And for everyone else: what I'm getting at is that it is the roleplaying itself which may be problematic, and not just people *ruining it* by spouting nazi ideology.

[QUOTE=gufu;48784755]Like, I know I have some bias, but I am pretty sure Soviet army did not entirely consist of just some random dudes with guns who basically outnumbered Germans in human wave attacks till they won. That's just some Wehraboo wankery.[/QUOTE] What I mean by that is that the Soviets weren't as (poor word choices but w/e it's late) intricate/anal about their organization and focused more on achieving their goals. Like, the Germans were "Okay we need to get A,B,C,D,E and F in that order and ensure that we have an intricate line of defenses and rear-echelon support etc. etc. and we can't get ourselves hinged on stuff too long because it's all about mobility these days" With the Russians, it was "Get them the [I]fuck[/I] out of here"

way to miss the point flameon, way to miss the point and to construe the reenactors as a problem.

[QUOTE=Timebomb575;48784769]what is your basis for saying this ok see heres the thing, I'm not a reenactor, but something that you kind of come to learn when looking in depth at a particular part of history (war in particular) is that while the organizations these guys were fighting for were obviously some of the worst humanity has ever had to offer, the guys themselves frequently werent. not every confederate soldier wanted to lynch free black people, and not every wehrmact trooper wanted to gas jews people like to take "hey wait according to a lot of accounts it seems like most of these guys were just fighting to defend their country and weren't extremists who supported the awful shit their governments did" and misconstrue that as "nazis did nothing wrong" when it definitely isn't the case it [I]is[/I] a loaded question because it only has one answer that doesn't make the person answering it look like an idiot[/QUOTE] One example off the top of my head is that the fact that USA has been racist for a pretty damn long time doesn't mean they have covered their bases to make sure future policies aren't. Litterally tons of examples spring to mind. The whole banality of it was that it was a bunch of good people following orders that made the whole thing happen. Why you would celebrate that I don't know. [editline]29th September 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=bdd458;48784781]way to miss the point flameon, way to miss the point and to construe the reenactors as a problem.[/QUOTE] sigh.

[QUOTE=Flameon;48784770]It is pretty fucked up that he was drafted into the army at the age of 17 to fight for a dictatorship. I feel like there is a way to honor him that doesn't incorporate the kind of joyous comradery that comes with renacting his unit. And for everyone else: what I'm getting at is that it is the roleplaying itself which may be problematic, and not just people *ruining it* by spouting nazi ideology.[/QUOTE] Im not sure I understand what you're saying here I mean the guys in his unit were still [I]people[/I] that did actually (I assume) have a good bit of comradery, doesnt it make sense to portray that if you're reenacting as them? should they be like deliberately throwing up nazi salutes and screaming stuff about hitler all the time to ensure that onlookers remember that they were the bad guys or something?

[QUOTE=Flameon;48784770]what I'm getting at is that it is the roleplaying itself which may be problematic, and not just people *ruining it* by spouting nazi ideology.[/QUOTE] What, exactly, is the problem in reenacting military units that fought for the "bad" side? These people are [B]not[/B] glorifying the crimes and ideologies commited by these units or their commanding officers. You keep going on in circles saying that there's a big problem with military reenactment, but you don't stop for a while to tell us exactly [I]what is the issue[/I]

[QUOTE=Flameon;48784770]It is pretty fucked up that he was drafted into the army at the age of 17 to fight for a dictatorship. I feel like there is a way to honor him that doesn't incorporate the kind of joyous comradery that comes with renacting his unit. And for everyone else: what I'm getting at is that it is the roleplaying itself which may be problematic, and not just people *ruining it* by spouting nazi ideology.[/QUOTE] Idk who cares if people want to play Nazi dress up. I have always found people who rennact as Waffen SS as questionable people, especially the way they seem to slightly revere this guy in the video. Beyond that I can't find myself particularly worrying about a rise in Neo-Nazis.

[QUOTE=Vasili;48784821] I have always found people who rennact as Waffen SS as questionable people[/QUOTE] Am I questionable?

[QUOTE=Flameon;48784784] sigh.[/QUOTE] Is this the best you can come up with? I'm going to give you an example of something fantastic from history, a quick lesson. I'm planning on doing British WWI Reenacting, on the surface seems like a pretty innoucous thing yeah? What bad things did the British do in WWI? Other than exploit their colonial troops that is? About a decade prior the British were engaged in something called "The Second Boer War". The quick and dirty version of that is the British were doing very bad things; specifically putting Boer Women and Children, and blacks, into Concentration camps and not taking any care of them letting countless women and children die in what was essentially a genocide. Yet, me portraying a British soldier of the time period means fucking nothing, and does not mean I support in any ways the actions of the British Empire at the time. You keep going back and every nation, small and large, old and young have some nasty dirt on their hands.

[QUOTE=Flameon;48784784]One example off the top of my head is that the fact that USA has been racist for a pretty damn long time doesn't mean they have covered their bases to make sure future policies aren't. Litterally tons of examples spring to mind. The whole banality of it was that it was a bunch of good people following orders that made the whole thing happen. Why you would celebrate that I don't know. [/QUOTE] reenacting as a particular faction doesn't [I]in any way[/I] mean you are "celebrating" their exploits you keep phrasing your arguments in a way that makes your bias really obvious and it makes you seem kinda sheltered tbh, like you obviously have no idea what reenacting is, but you basically keep trying to tell a reenactor that "no, even though you have specifically said that you arent a nazi, you probably are"

[QUOTE=T553412;48784818]What, exactly, is the problem in reenacting military units that fought for the "bad" side? These people are [B]not[/B] glorifying the crimes and ideologies commited by these units or their commanding officers. You keep going on in circles saying that there's a big problem with military reenactment, but you don't stop for a while to tell us exactly [I]what is the issue[/I][/QUOTE] The issue is the fetishization of the uniform, the tactics, the weaponry, all those 'sexy' things incorporated into a specific context (love of country, of culture, of heritage) which was precisely the combination of attributes which lured everyday German people into fighting for a machine of evil. In a nut shell, what presents itself as honoring a heritage or people is just replaying the same tropes but saying, "But this time we aren't gonna fall for all that *real* Nazi stuff." Not only is it disrespectful to victims on all sides of the war, but its just straight up unethical to flirt with stuff like that. [editline]29th September 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=bdd458;48784849]Is this the best you can come up with? I'm going to give you an example of something fantastic from history, a quick lesson. I'm planning on doing British WWI Reenacting, on the surface seems like a pretty innoucous thing yeah? What bad things did the British do in WWI? Other than exploit their colonial troops that is? About a decade prior the British were engaged in something called "The Second Boer War". The quick and dirty version of that is the British were doing very bad things; specifically putting Boer Women and Children, and blacks, into Concentration camps and not taking any care of them letting countless women and children die in what was essentially a genocide. Yet, me portraying a British soldier of the time period means fucking nothing, and does not mean I support in any ways the actions of the British Empire at the time. You keep going back and every nation, small and large, old and young have some nasty dirt on their hands.[/QUOTE] Maybe you shouldn't do those reenactments then? [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Threadshitting" - OvB))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=Flameon;48784859]The issue is the fetishization of the uniform, the tactics, the weaponry, all those 'sexy' things incorporated into a specific context (love of country, of culture, of heritage) which was precisely the combination of attributes which lured everyday German people into fighting for a machine of evil. In a nut shell, what presents itself as honoring a heritage or people is just replaying the same tropes but saying, "But this time we aren't gonna fall for all that *real* Nazi stuff." Not only is it disrespectful to victims on all sides of the war, but its just straight up unethical to flirt with stuff like that.[/QUOTE] Alright, so would you say the same to a director for a war film? Would you say that to an actor in a movie? Would you say that to an author of a book? Would you say that to an artist of a picture?

[QUOTE=Flameon;48784859]The issue is the fetishization of the uniform, the tactics, the weaponry, all those 'sexy' things incorporated into a specific context (love of country, of culture, of heritage) which was precisely the combination of attributes which lured everyday German people into fighting for a machine of evil. In a nut shell, what presents itself as honoring a heritage or people is just replaying the same tropes but saying, "But this time we aren't gonna fall for all that *real* Nazi stuff." Not only is it disrespectful to victims on all sides of the war, but its just straight up unethical to flirt with stuff like that. [editline]29th September 2015[/editline] Maybe you shouldn't do those reenactments then?[/QUOTE] :dig: keep on diggin' that hole

[QUOTE=Flameon;48784859] Maybe you shouldn't do those reenactments then?[/QUOTE] That's not a response and you fucking know it.

[QUOTE=Flameon;48784859]The issue is the fetishization of the uniform, the tactics, the weaponry, all those 'sexy' things incorporated into a specific context (love of country, of culture, of heritage) which was precisely the combination of attributes which lured everyday German people into fighting for a machine of evil. In a nut shell, what presents itself as honoring a heritage or people is just replaying the same tropes but saying, "But this time we aren't gonna fall for all that *real* Nazi stuff." Not only is it disrespectful to victims on all sides of the war, but its just straight up unethical to flirt with stuff like that. [/QUOTE] ok so like, how do you deal with that? do we ban depictions of german uniforms, weapons, and battles they participated in to ensure that people dont get interested in them? do we just try to forget the fact that any of that terrible shit ever happened? IMO that's more disrespectful to victims of the war than reenacting a battle.

and before I forget A lot of Reenactors I know don't have a single timeframe and a single side. Many of them opt, especially if they have the money, to have a lot of impressions. For example, Evan, a guy I met earlier this year does: WWI British, WWI German, WWII American, WWII German, and WWII British. 2 different periods and 5 different impressions. Yet in no way shape or form does he claim to agree with the ideologies or practices of the governments of those time periods.

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;48784839]Am I questionable?[/QUOTE] I'd have to ask your political stances, your opinion on Nazism, and why you like to specifically renact as a criminal organization - the Waffen SS etc.

I mean 95% of the discussions in camp/between reenactors are just regular conversations, a huge portion of which are day-to-day things totally unrelated to WWII or even reenacting, just stuff. It's basically a club for history buffs to be a "part" of the things they studied and appreciate what it was like. When the public comes up and asks questions, they get truthful, honest responses that sometimes carry on into long, entertaining conversations. Public events are made to educate people on the day to day of a soldier or the battles, not about the politics or the crimes or the misery.

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;48784869]Alright, so would you say the same to a director for a war film? Would you say that to an actor in a movie? Would you say that to an author of a book? Would you say that to an artist of a picture?[/QUOTE] I think it depends on the war film or the book or the picture. One ought to tread fucking carefully when they produce a work of fiction or fact. If you made a film about WW2 that was little more than an action flick/shoot 'em up that glorified german technology then the film would probably be unethical.