Veteran of the SS Wiking division meets reenactors of SS Wiking - General

[QUOTE=Timebomb575;48784894]ok so like, how do you deal with that? do we ban depictions of german uniforms, weapons, and battles they participated in to ensure that people dont get interested in them? do we just try to forget the fact that any of that terrible shit ever happened? IMO that's more disrespectful to victims of the war than reenacting a battle.[/QUOTE] you are acting like theres a forced choice between "anything goes" and "plug your ears and pretend ww2 never happened"

I think it'd be neat to do some reenactments as a ww1 Serb or a partisan but there's probably not enough people interested.

[QUOTE=Flameon;48784859]The issue is the fetishization of the uniform[/quote] Say whatever you want about the Nazis, they knew how to dress. Well, I reckon that's what happens when you hire motherfucking Hugo Boss to design your wardrobe, but still... [quote]the tactics, the weaponry[/quote] German tactics and weapons were pretty revolutionary, during the war. There's no point arguing that. They had great geniuses commanding their forces. And many of them were pretty decent people, on the battlefield and outside of it. It's the leadership that was fucked up. [quote]all those 'sexy' things incorporated into a specific context (love of country, of culture, of heritage) which was precisely the combination of attributes which lured everyday German people into fighting for a machine of evil.[/QUOTE] You mean that nobody is allowed to appreciate the tactics and arms used by one of the finest military forces of the last century (Until Hitler and his party decided to try their hand at playing army and fucked their own side) You also have to remember that many of the "attributes which lured everyday German people into fighting for a machine of evil" were, in fact, [I]not[/I] exclusive to Germany, alone. Racism, xenophobia and an almost irrational fear of communism were pretty common in the 30s and 40s. Pretty speeches and nice uniforms weren't the only factors that drove Germany into starting the Second World War. And plenty of Germans weren't fighting for the Nazi ideology. Many even fought against it. Is not an easy topic to analize, and you are looking for trouble where there isn't any.

[QUOTE=Vasili;48784902]I'd have to ask your political stances[/QUOTE] I cannot really name my stances, but I would consider myself slightly more right of most Europeans, though I take a fairly liberal stance on things like LGBT rights, religious freedom, immigration, etc. (Naming a party wouldn't be helpful) [quote]your opinion on Nazism[/quote] Nazism is a disease that humanity is basically forever cursed to bear. It achieved nothing but the deaths of countless millions while also forcing the world into an east/west polar divide. [quote]and why you like to specifically reenact as a criminal organization[/quote] See previous page

Some of the best conversations I've had were talking to reenactors about various shit. I remember one time I was at a Revolutionary War reenactment and I was hanging around the British camp, and this Dismounted Dragoon had a small crowd and he was talking about various aspects of camp life and stuff, then this little kid - probably 5 or 6 asked "why don't you actually kill eachother?" and everyone laughed and he explained that everyone would rather not have the cops involved :v:

[QUOTE=Zang-Pog;48784506]Of course you don't always have a choice, but that's different. If you become a literal killing machine by choice, there is a problem[/QUOTE] Yeah because everyone who joins the military totally does it because they wanna kill There can definitely no other reason for that, it's just all about murdering your fellow man just for the sheer joy of it Seriously, what the hell, where does this idea come from that going out and killing is literally the only possible thing there is to do in the military? Yes, alright, the military kills people, that's one of the fundamental parts of its existence, I will never dispute that. But the idea that killing is the one singular thing that a modern military does and that every single individual in a given military is there solely for the purpose of killing is just willful ignorance at this point Some people join up for the career opportunities, some do it out of patriotic ideals, some do it 'cause they've got nowhere else to go, some do it as a career path, some are just bored, some want adventure, there's tons of different reasons, and everyone who joins has got a different one, thinking that everyone who joins only did it because they wanna kill is just so profoundly dense

[QUOTE=Flameon;48784913]you are acting like theres a forced choice between "anything goes" and "plug your ears and pretend ww2 never happened"[/QUOTE] how about instead of an epic zinger you actually present an argument? how would you go about discussing ww2 battles, factions, weapons, uniforms, etc without (by your definition) "glorifying" them?

Man now I feel pretty awful for bringing this video up, I didn't mean to cause such a huge controversy like this

[QUOTE=T553412;48784918]Say whatever you want about the Nazis, they knew how to dress. Well, I reckon that's what happens when you hire motherfucking Hugo Boss to design your wardrobe, but still... German tactics and weapons were pretty revolutionary, during the war. There's no point arguing that. They had great geniuses commanding their forces. And many of them were pretty decent people, on the battlefield and outside of it. It's the leadership that was fucked up. You mean that nobody is allowed to appreciate the tactics and arms used by one of the finest military forces of the last century (Until Hitler and his party decided to try their hand at playing army and fucked their own side) You also have to remember that many of the "attributes which lured everyday German people into fighting for a machine of evil" were, in fact, [I]not[/I] exclusive to Germany, alone. Racism, xenophobia and an almost irrational fear of communism were pretty common in the 30s and 40s. Pretty speeches and nice uniforms weren't the only factors that drove Germany into starting the Second World War. And plenty of Germans weren't fighting for the Nazi ideology. Many even fought against it. Is not an easy topic to analize, and you are looking for trouble where there isn't any.[/QUOTE] You are totally right, but it isnt like the renactors are seperating any of these things from the particular constellation of meaning. They arent just saying, "Wow! These kinds of uniforms are cool" and they arent just saying, "Wow! These tactics were cool!" or "These machines were cool!" its the whole she-bang. Each bit of paraphernalia reflects its meaning onto, and defers its meaning toward, another. And you are right that Nazis werent the only xenophobic racists. All the more reason we should be vigilant today and not pretend like that ideology died in 1944

[QUOTE=Sitkero;48784926]that everyone who joins only did it because they wanna kill is just so profoundly dense[/QUOTE] Not to mention, incredibly insensitive towards every person who has, currently is, or planning to join the Military of their respective nation.

[QUOTE=Flameon;48784956]You are totally right, but it isnt like the renactors are seperating any of these things from the particular constellation of meaning. They arent just saying, "Wow! These kinds of uniforms are cool" and they arent just saying, "Wow! These tactics were cool!" or "These machines were cool!" its the whole she-bang. [/QUOTE] Uh...that's actually a huge portion of what reenacting is about. "Man, the 101st Airborne had really interesting uniforms considering how puffy they were. And to think, these guys were being dropped from a couple thousand feet up right behind enemy lines, and were carrying things like the M1 Garand and the Thompson? Geez, that's just intense" "Wow, Alpini troops had some really bizarre uniforms, like a mesh of WWI and WWII. Moving around through the mountains must have been tough as hell, not to mention their strange choice of full length rifles [I]and[/I] carbines for an organized force. That must have been a struggle" so on and so forth

[QUOTE=Zang-Pog;48784963]Why would you feel awful for showing people what you like to do as a hobby[/QUOTE] Because I think his intentions were to show something cool, and informative. Not create a dumb 3-page spanning debate on who can pop the biggest hemorrhoid with the biggest thumbtack

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;48784953]Man now I feel pretty awful for bringing this video up, I didn't mean to cause such a huge controversy like this[/QUOTE] You're not, it's just one person with a stick up their ass, and another trying to steal the thread to make a "deep" point of warfare. You're doing an awesome job at what you do, and I now really wish I could have gone to Rockford just to meet this person. Did he do public events at the show, or was it just between him and reenactors.

[QUOTE=Flameon;48784956]You are totally right, but it isnt like the renactors are seperating any of these things from the particular constellation of meaning. They arent just saying, "Wow! These kinds of uniforms are cool" and they arent just saying, "Wow! These tactics were cool!" or "These machines were cool!" its the whole she-bang. Each bit of paraphernalia reflects its meaning onto, and defers its meaning toward, another[/QUOTE] why do you keep making it out like people are incapable of separating an interest in equipment, tactics, and uniforms from the ideologies of the people that used them I'm a huge tank nerd, am I a bad person for liking tank designs that were used by people with bad intentions?

[QUOTE=Laferio;48784981]Because I think his intentions were to show something cool, and informative. Not create a dumb 3-page spanning debate on who can pop the biggest hemorrhoid with the biggest thumbtack[/QUOTE] I mean like I understand why there's a shitload of controversy around it, I mean, if you weren't familiar with the hobby you'd raise an eyebrow too. I guess it's because I've grown up in a military-centered household with a couple parents very invested in history. I've been attending the Rockford reenactments for 11 years at this point, and to be able to finally join up was just totally radical to me. [QUOTE=Pvt. Martin;48784988]Did he do public events at the show, or was it just between him and reenactors.[/QUOTE] This was a one-off as he was just touring the campsites. His son is a member of the museum and was able to basically get him a backstage pass (as the museum was closed to the public at that point) [editline]28th September 2015[/editline] [QUOTE=Zang-Pog;48784992]I guess he didn't [I]nazi[/I] it coming :v:[/QUOTE] Oh goddammit of all of the things to make me fucking laugh right now :v:

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;48785000] I guess it's because I've grown up in a military-centered household with a couple parents very invested in history. I've been attending the Rockford reenactments for 11 years at this point, and to be able to finally join up was just totally radical to me.[/QUOTE] For me that sort of moment is going to be when this happens [video=youtube;WXkRaizlnTA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXkRaizlnTA[/video] As someone who has been interested in WWI for a good portion of my life, being able to experience it a bit, and get a better insight into the experiences of those who actually experienced it is a lifelong dream. It's the same for anyone with whatever period(s) they're doing.

[QUOTE=Timebomb575;48784990]why do you keep making it out like people are incapable of separating an interest in equipment, tactics, and uniforms from the ideologies of the people that used them I'm a huge tank nerd, am I a bad person for liking tank designs that were used by people with bad intentions?[/QUOTE] flameon seems to be the one having troubles separating the interest in the material and the ideologies.

I dunno, maybe it's just that I'm coming off of the euphoria of meeting a ton of really awesome, fun people and having things that I can regularly look forward to again. I don't get out much and having a reason to do so makes me happy. I guess that's why I got so defensive, sorry if it sounded like I was yelling at someone.

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;48785018]I dunno, maybe it's just that I'm coming off of the euphoria of meeting a ton of really awesome, fun people and having things that I can regularly look forward to again. I don't get out much and having a reason to do so makes me happy. I guess that's why I got so defensive, sorry if it sounded like I was yelling at someone.[/QUOTE] personally, i think you're completely in the right, especially how this isn't the first time you've explained this

Zang-Pog, can you even make a difference between something like a historical reenactment and the actual thing? Doesn't seem like that to me. Also for Zillamaster55: What is the final cost on your part for the reenactment?

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;48785018]I dunno, maybe it's just that I'm coming off of the euphoria of meeting a ton of really awesome, fun people and having things that I can regularly look forward to again. I don't get out much and having a reason to do so makes me happy. I guess that's why I got so defensive, sorry if it sounded like I was yelling at someone.[/QUOTE] There really isn't a need to apologize here.

[QUOTE={TFS} Rock Su;48785033] What is the final cost on your part for the reenactment?[/QUOTE] In the realm of $1250-1350 (€1110-1200) by the time everything was done. I dropped $350 (€310) on the helmet alone. [editline]28th September 2015[/editline] If you have other questions about reenacting, you can direct them [url=https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1483767&p=48774917&viewfull=1#post48774917]here[/url] as not to make it seem like there's a butt-tillion threads about it. Posted this here since I thought non-reenactors would be interested in it

[video=youtube;PiLVAz-Jczg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiLVAz-Jczg[/video] This thread eh? [QUOTE=Zillamaster55;48784565]I feel that Germany during WWII is only displayed as tyrannical, and that every individual soldier was a war criminal, and it would be best to show that every soldier is different from another. A second reason is that I find the Eastern Front to be quite interesting historically/militarily, and [B]the idea of how a hyper-organized army was crushed by a relatively hodge-podge one is fascinating[/B].[/QUOTE] Come on man. The Red Army was actually pretty great. They just caught by surprise which caused them to be outnumbered by like 2-1 in the initial invasion and left without any air power. They also had most of their officers purged, leaving their tanks&Equipment in the hands of people who had no experience. This whole "hoards of illiterate peasants with american guns" thing you're kinda alluding to is just wrong. Also, the fact that Germany is portrayed as tyrannical comes from the fact that they were basically an autocratic government that had a very aggressive foreign policy. Annexing your neighbors and striking first generally does that. Not to say that the Soviets were any better... they probably were planning on invading Europe.

[QUOTE=Flameon;48784859]The issue is the fetishization of the uniform, the tactics, the weaponry, all those 'sexy' things incorporated into a specific context (love of country, of culture, of heritage) which was precisely the combination of attributes which lured everyday German people into fighting for a machine of evil. In a nut shell, what presents itself as honoring a heritage or people is just replaying the same tropes but saying, "But this time we aren't gonna fall for all that *real* Nazi stuff." Not only is it disrespectful to victims on all sides of the war, but its just straight up unethical to flirt with stuff like that. [editline]29th September 2015[/editline] Maybe you shouldn't do those reenactments then? [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Threadshitting" - OvB))[/highlight][/QUOTE] I can't differentiate fantasy from reality either.

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;48785093] This whole "hoards of illiterate peasants with american guns" thing you're kinda alluding to is just wrong. [/QUOTE] That's what I mentioned here but it got buried [QUOTE=Zillamaster55;48784779]What I mean by that is that the Soviets weren't as (poor word choices but w/e it's late) intricate/anal about their organization and focused more on achieving their goals. Like, the Germans were "Okay we need to get A,B,C,D,E and F in that order and ensure that we have an intricate line of defenses and rear-echelon support etc. etc. and we can't get ourselves hinged on stuff too long because it's all about mobility these days" With the Russians, it was "Get them the [I]fuck[/I] out of here"[/QUOTE]

I played cowboys and Indians when I was a kid and now I spend my time rampaging through Reservations to satisfy my blood lust. Oh, if only I had understood the complexities of society and social norms and the thin line between acting and reality.

What I mean by "hodge-podge" in that sense is that everyone from all walks of life were basically mobilized in the snap of a finger and the army was teetering on collapsing at a few points before getting on its feet, pulling up its pants and kicking the fuhrer right in the mouth. The biggest reason why the Germans were able to move in so fast is simply because the Soviets weren't 100% on their a-game in '41. [editline]29th September 2015[/editline] Merge [editline]29th September 2015[/editline] The way I basically explain the eastern front is that Germany and the USSR get in a bar-fight. Germany throws some pretty serious hooks left and right and knocks the USSR up against the bar, but decides to start slapping him angrily on the back instead of knocking his teeth in. After a few minutes, the USSR comes-to and smashes a bottle against Germany's head. And then another one. And another. And then a bar-stool.

[QUOTE=Flameon;48784784] sigh.[/QUOTE] You can glorify/honor the Wehrmacht, US revolutionary soldiers and Confederate soldiers without glorifying racism, slavery or genocide. [QUOTE=Zillamaster55;48784779] With the Russians, it was "Get them the [I]fuck[/I] out of here"[/QUOTE] No. The Russians did in fact have tactics and a military doctrine. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_operation[/url] However they had backwards commanders promoted out of seniority and politics and a certain general secretary who just didn't use them.

[QUOTE=Rangergxi;48785199] No. The Russians did in fact have tactics and a military doctrine. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deep_operation[/url] However they had backwards commanders promoted out of seniority and politics and a certain general secretary who just didn't use them.[/QUOTE] Hilariously enough, a lot of those plans were faltered by none other than fucking Stalin. Granted you gotta wonder if there would be anyone else right for the job, considering you need an iron fist to keep a situation like Barbarossa-Era USSR running smooth

[QUOTE=Zillamaster55;48785206]Hilariously enough, a lot of those plans were faltered by none other than fucking Stalin. Granted you gotta wonder if there would be anyone else right for the job, considering you need an iron fist to keep a situation like Barbarossa-Era USSR running smooth[/QUOTE] I wouldn't say Stalin had that big of a role on the fuckups of Soviet army. Not a direct one at least. Like all "direct control mode" type dictator, including Hitler, albeit to lesser extent, Stalin picked and chose his generals pretty much personally. That led to them often having more loyalty to him personally then to their troops. So you have a shitton of high-ranking officers who won't make a move until they're absolutely sure Stalin's okay with it. That's more of a systemic problem with Stalin's empire-building policies rather than his direct involvement.