• How the controller took the importance of aim out of shooters (self posted)
    148 replies, posted
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51530465]Would this not be a game pad I own one It is in fact a game pad[/QUOTE] I'm sorry?
It wasn't even that long ago I recall a thread where people were saying the controller equal to the mouse at aiming but people just aren't "used" to it or something. I really can't comprehend how someone could say that if they ever held a mouse before.
It's the same reason that while i can technically play a shooter on my phone, i just don't. If im going to spend my time doing something i either do it in the format that will get me the most out of it or not at all. With my phone that means no games at all, i use it for entertainment thats most suited to phones like web browsing or watching videos. Same reason i'd never play a serious racing game with just WASD or even a controller, i'd want a wheel.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;51530482]I'm sorry?[/QUOTE] A steam controller is a gamepad. Yes it has a gyro. It's still a gamepad.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51530654]A steam controller is a gamepad. Yes it has a gyro. It's still a gamepad.[/QUOTE] The person you responded to wasn't arguing otherwise.
It's a good video, well written and structured, but it really needs a bit more work on the visual and audio side, like for example getting some background music.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51530654]A steam controller is a gamepad. Yes it has a gyro. It's still a gamepad.[/QUOTE] Uhhhh okay? What's your point?
I thought you were arguining in favour of piggys point
The PS4 controller also has a gyro sensor, or, whatever the hell that is in there, but it's infamously hypersensitive, and it's almost always been completely off-track for me on games like Infamous: Second Son. So I don't think it'd work as a good aiming substitute for shooters on that system.
I am a homosexual. [highlight](User was permabanned for this post ("You're done" - UncleJimmema))[/highlight]
[QUOTE=RikohZX;51530805]The PS4 controller also has a gyro sensor, or, whatever the hell that is in there, but it's infamously hypersensitive, and it's almost always been completely off-track for me on games like Infamous: Second Son. So I don't think it'd work as a good aiming substitute for shooters on that system.[/QUOTE] They actually added the DS4 controller to Steam and allowed users to use it in much the same way you can use the SC, and this includes touchpad support for mouse or menus or things like that and gyro input support. I don't own the DS4 so I can't say for myself but from what I've heard around, using the DS4 Gyro as a mouse for aiming in games actually works very well. That said it does have sensitivity settings, which would sidestep that hypersensitivity problem.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;51529716]Battlefield 1942 (the first one) and BF2 treated Iron sights differently. They weren't as necessary. Since the series started selling better on consoles they started configuring it more for the controller. I don't want BF to be quake but I don't want it to suffer from modern game philosophy either. They also did a few other things like lower TTK and added in health regeneration into the later games to appeal more to console players.[/QUOTE] I'm sorry but that's a gross over simplification of what happened (something you do a lot). Battlefield 1942 and 2 used a very simple firing cone to determine where bullets went, as the games have gone on they have added proper recoil, firing patterns, bullet spread, and recovery times. To say the style of shooting changed because of consoles is entirely ignorant of how the games evolved. Also, you [i]really[/i] need to take the nostalgia glasses off. Every video of yours I've seen has been "Regenerating health is always bad" "Old games always did it better" "Grr consoles ruin everything".
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51530792]I thought you were arguining in favour of piggys point[/QUOTE] I'm more saying that with [I]smart[/I] controller design and practice, controllers [I]hypothetically can[/I] reach a point where they can compete directly with mouse and keyboard users. Most users who play PC games regularly have had years and years of practice with the keyboard and mouse. The Steam Controller has only been out for around a year, and that dude in that video I posted is already quite good, and at least better than the average KB+M user, such as me. That guy's CS:GO series is "Road to Global"; if he reaches it, he can prove that a gamepad (albeit, an unconventional gamepad) user can stand among the best KB+M players in the world. I think that with design improvements and/or comparable practice time, it could be totally possible to design a controller that can match the precision, accuracy, and speed of a mouse and keyboard. It's just that experimentation going into reaching that goal of mouse/controller parity is still in its infancy. For example, the guy in that video has talked frequently about imprecision in the SC's gyro, meaning it can be choppy or can drift or can on some days work differently than others. This can mean problems with muscle memory.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;51530871]They actually added the DS4 controller to Steam and allowed users to use it in much the same way you can use the SC, and this includes touchpad support for mouse or menus or things like that and gyro input support. I don't own the DS4 so I can't say for myself but from what I've heard around, using the DS4 Gyro as a mouse for aiming in games actually works very well. That said it does have sensitivity settings, which would sidestep that hypersensitivity problem.[/QUOTE] I think some people have said that it works well but it's not as good as the Steam Controller gyro.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;51530924]I'm more saying that with [I]smart[/I] controller design and practice, controllers [I]hypothetically can[/I] reach a point where they can compete directly with mouse and keyboard users. Most users who play PC games regularly have had years and years of practice with the keyboard and mouse. The Steam Controller has only been out for around a year, and that dude in that video I posted is already quite good, and at least better than the average KB+M user, such as me. That guy's CS:GO series is "Road to Global"; if he reaches it, he can prove that a gamepad (albeit, an unconventional gamepad) user can stand among the best KB+M players in the world. I think that with design improvements and/or comparable practice time, it could be totally possible to design a controller that can match the precision, accuracy, and speed of a mouse and keyboard. It's just that experimentation going into reaching that goal of mouse/controller parity is still in its infancy.[/QUOTE] I think a large part of the "Controllers are THE FUCKING WORST" stuff comes from PC players who use a controller maybe once a month complaining that they can't aim as well as they can with a mouse they use every day. Sure, the controller is inherently inferior to the mouse, but that is significantly amplified by those players having no skill using the thing they're complaining about. Once you have practice aiming with a controller is easy. I used to use a controller a lot for shooters and I got to the point where I couldn't play games that had aim assist because it was making me less accurate by compensating for shit I was already compensating for. I would turn it off every chance I got. Using a controller to aim isn't nearly as inaccurate or and 'casual' as PC players make it out to be.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;51530966]I think a large part of the "Controllers are THE FUCKING WORST" stuff comes from PC players who use a controller maybe once a month complaining that they can't aim as well as they can with a mouse they use every day. Sure, the controller is inherently inferior to the mouse, but that is significantly amplified by those players having no skill using the thing they're complaining about. Once you have practice aiming with a controller is easy. I used to use a controller a lot for shooters and I got to the point where I couldn't play games that had aim assist because it was making me less accurate by compensating for shit I was already compensating for. I would turn it off every chance I got. Using a controller to aim isn't nearly as inaccurate or and 'casual' as PC players make it out to be.[/QUOTE] I used to play Rainbow 6 Vegas competitively on the xbox 360, even won a few major Gamebattles(I think it was gamebattles?) tournaments with my team at the time. A controller isn't as accurate as a mouse and keyboard by any degree, but it's still accurate, and with skill and practice, as you say, one can be pretty talented and skilled with it.
Idk, in GTA IV and V, I like the assisted aim. Being able to effortlessly pop off headshots is super satisfying imo, especially with the little sound effect when you hit them.
[QUOTE=J!NX;51529286]Aim assist in games is the fucking worst thing ever in gta 5 the aim assist is basically aim bot too[/QUOTE] I remember playing it on the PS3 and quite literaly distributing bullets through enemies by just pressing the auto aim button. I even pressed it multiple times in a row to keep switching and shooting everyone nearly at the same time.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;51530966]I think a large part of the "Controllers are THE FUCKING WORST" stuff comes from PC players who use a controller maybe once a month complaining that they can't aim as well as they can with a mouse they use every day. Sure, the controller is inherently inferior to the mouse, but that is significantly amplified by those players having no skill using the thing they're complaining about. Once you have practice aiming with a controller is easy. I used to use a controller a lot for shooters and I got to the point where I couldn't play games that had aim assist because it was making me less accurate by compensating for shit I was already compensating for. I would turn it off every chance I got. Using a controller to aim isn't nearly as inaccurate or and 'casual' as PC players make it out to be.[/QUOTE] Yeah, for sure. I always get embarrassed when I say I'm a good player to friends, and then they are like "Play a CoD match with me on my XBOX" and I get wrecked because I can't figure out the damn controller and I'm stuck going "What's this button do?!" to them like an idiot. I usually have better gamesense but that only gets you so far. I also play Smash a bit on my SC and sometimes GC controller, and then when I play Smash with my family and they hand be a Wii U Tablet controller I'm stuck there floundering like someone who never played before.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;51530881]To say the style of shooting changed because of consoles is entirely ignorant of how the games evolved.[/QUOTE] They followed a pattern of evolution that works better with controllers so I don't think it is just an assumption to say they did so. Making ADS more important slows down gameplay so playing with a controller is easier. Lower TTK also helps controller players because it means there is less readjusting needed in a fire fight. [quote]Also, you [i]really[/i] need to take the nostalgia glasses off. Every video of yours I've seen has been "Regenerating health is always bad" "Old games always did it better" "Grr consoles ruin everything".[/QUOTE] Many modern AAA games have a lot of gameplay flaws. I don't think all genres got worse but the big games and genres often sacrifice well designed gameplay for accessibility. You can see this is almost every long running AAA series from splinter cell to Ninja Gaiden. Redesigning the shooter is another example of this. It is why I want to praise splatoon for finding another way around the trap many designers face when designing a shooter.
[QUOTE=Janus Vesta;51530966]I think a large part of the "Controllers are THE FUCKING WORST" stuff comes from PC players who use a controller maybe once a month complaining that they can't aim as well as they can with a mouse they use every day.[/QUOTE] Why should anyone get used to using an objectively inferior control scheme? Bad/Broken controls are one of the worst problems a game can have. Having to fight the controls just so I can be ok at best when playing a game doesn't sound like a good time to me. All the developers have to do is give players the option to use something better. 99% of the people playing on a console also own a mouse lying around somewhere. I should be allowed to use it if I want.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;51531063]= Many modern AAA games have a lot of gameplay flaws. I don't think all genres got worse but the big games and genres often sacrifice well designed gameplay for accessibility. You can see this is almost every long running AAA series from splinter cell to Ninja Gaiden. Redesigning the shooter is another example of this. It is why I want to praise splatoon for finding another way around the trap many designers face when designing a shooter.[/QUOTE] It's fair to say modern games have flaws. But you act kinda like old games were flawless. They weren't. They also had flaws. Control schemes on Doom were terrible before they added mouses to the control scheme, even then, once the "Gold Standard" had been hit, there was still tons of things that old classic games did that seem heavily flawed to me. I loved old school games, it's what I grew up with, and I can recognize that games today are sometimes lacking in certain elements, but I can also look at modern games and see that old games were quite flawed too so it's really a matter of nostalgia goggles IMO. System Shock, for instance, is a wonderful game that is heavily marred by it's control scheme and doesn't garner a lot of favour from it's "Approachability" front. Now, say whatever you will about a game being "approachable" but I don't think making games arcane, and difficult to understand is a good thing for anyone.
[QUOTE=simkas;51529712]Unless it's a console game. Trying to do precise aiming with a stick is the worst fucking shit ever ever ever.[/QUOTE] Yeah tbh I fucking hate console exclusives that don't have some sort of assist. It's such a pain in the ass to aim with by comparison. [editline]14th December 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Rocâ„¢;51531014]I remember playing it on the PS3 and quite literaly distributing bullets through enemies by just pressing the auto aim button. I even pressed it multiple times in a row to keep switching and shooting everyone nearly at the same time.[/QUOTE] Well yeah, they literally tell you to do this in the tutorial for that very reason.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51531625]It's fair to say modern games have flaws. But you act kinda like old games were flawless. They weren't. They also had flaws. Control schemes on Doom were terrible before they added mouses to the control scheme, even then, once the "Gold Standard" had been hit, there was still tons of things that old classic games did that seem heavily flawed to me. I loved old school games, it's what I grew up with, and I can recognize that games today are sometimes lacking in certain elements, but I can also look at modern games and see that old games were quite flawed too so it's really a matter of nostalgia goggles IMO. System Shock, for instance, is a wonderful game that is heavily marred by it's control scheme and doesn't garner a lot of favour from it's "Approachability" front. Now, say whatever you will about a game being "approachable" but I don't think making games arcane, and difficult to understand is a good thing for anyone.[/QUOTE] For the record Doom had mouse support since the very beginning, a lot of people tend to forget that.
Recently a friend of mine who plays Overwatch on console came over to my house and tried to play the PC version I own using an XBOX controller and he played awfully and was blown away at how fast people were reacting to his presence and didn't get a single medal yet on console he does 'quite okay'. There's a big skill gap between a controller and a mouse/keyboard when it comes to shooters let's be real. But there's a legit few good points here.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51531625] Control schemes on Doom were terrible before they added mouses to the control scheme, even then, once the "Gold Standard" had been hit,[/QUOTE] Did you watch the video? It specifically addresses DOOM's old bad controls. The nostalgia goggles argument doesn't make sense when the people making the argument are willing to admit it was worse when DOOM 1 was first released.
[QUOTE=Metist;51531706]Did you watch the video? It specifically addresses DOOM's old bad controls. The nostalgia goggles argument doesn't make sense when the people making the argument are willing to admit it was worse when DOOM 1 was first released.[/QUOTE] Look, no matter how up in arms you get, how mad you get, how ready you are to yell or whatever that gamepads ruined gaming, I'll never agree to that
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51531713]Look, no matter how up in arms you get, how mad you get, how ready you are to yell or whatever that gamepads ruined gaming, I'll never agree to that[/QUOTE] Uh, ok. No one said they did. In fact most people (including the video) agree that gamepads are essential for some games. Some things are better for some things. Gamepads weren't made for shooters and aren't good with them. Keyboards aren't good at playing platformers with as well. Also steering wheels are better at controlling a car than a rope pulley system. I feel like you are making assumptions about the people simply saying controllers aren't good for shooters.
[QUOTE=Metist;51531738]Uh, ok. No one said they did. In fact most people (including the video) agree that gamepads are essential for some games. Some things are better for some things. Gamepads weren't made for shooters and aren't good with them. Keyboards aren't good at playing platformers with as well. Also steering wheels are better at controlling a car than a rope pulley system. I feel like you are making assumptions about the people simply saying controllers aren't good for shooters.[/QUOTE] I meant to say "shooters" rather than games, doesn't matter It didn't ruin shooters. It didn't make shooters an unenjoyable experience. It didn't make shooters as a genre, significantly worse. Again, I've played at a serious competitive level with gamepads, they're more than acceptable at that point, while a mouse and keyboard is better. Yes I see how it's affected game design as pointed out in the video. I truly don't see the suggestions in the video as an effective way to combat that or change shooter design into a more "90s" design type.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51531751] It didn't make shooters an unenjoyable experience. It didn't make shooters as a genre, significantly worse.[/QUOTE] This is only true if you say you are ok with worse controls and gameplay that has to be dumbed down just to deal with the worse controls. The shooter genre is a lot less varied now because of controls. Not all 90s and early 2000nds shooters were Quake clones. On a PC you can have Arena shooters, Z shooters (Ex: Tribes), FPS/RTS hybrids (natural selection) and tactical squad games like Counter strike. The first 3 genres listed aren't even possible on consoles and the last one has to be dumbed down to work on console. Now we have brain dead camp fests. Sure TF2 and Overwatch are also on console but if you notice those games don't even work well on console very well because aiming is so much harder without a slowing everything down for them. It's no coincidence that now that PC gaming is getting big again the FPS genre started getting more varied again.
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