• How the controller took the importance of aim out of shooters (self posted)
    148 replies, posted
[QUOTE=Metist;51531790]This is only true if you say you are ok with worse controls and gameplay that has to be dumbed down just to deal with the worse controls. The shooter genre is a lot less varied now because of controls. Not all 90s and early 2000nds shooters were Quake clones. On a PC you can have Arena shooters, Z shooters (Ex: Tribes), FPS/RTS hybrids (natural selection) and tactical squad games like Counter strike. The first 3 genres listed aren't even possible on consoles and the last one has to be dumbed down to work on console. Now we have brain dead camp fests. Sure TF2 and Overwatch are also on console but if you notice those games don't even work well on console very well because aiming is so much harder without a slowing everything down for them. It's no coincidence that now that PC gaming is getting big again the FPS genre started getting more varied again.[/QUOTE] Okay so I'm just arguing with your """""Objective""""" opinion about these things, then? I haven't once stated a controller is a better control surface. It isn't. It's just not nearly as terrible as you make it seem. Would the genre be "Less Varied", or "More varied" if it lacked a whole type of shooting games to replace them with the ones you've listed? I think it would be accurate to say the removal of a type of shooter, would make the genre "Less varied" as it would have "Less variation". You're right, not all shooters were quake clones, kinda weird how I never said that they were? So a shooter on a console is a "Brain dead campfest" by definition? I honestly haven't played one in years but I would hesitate to generalize so widely, but you're not bothered by that it would seem.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51531820] I haven't once stated a controller is a better control surface.[/QUOTE] I never said you did. [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51531820] Would the genre be "Less Varied", or "More varied" if it lacked a whole type of shooting games to replace them with the ones you've listed? I think it would be accurate to say the removal of a type of shooter, would make the genre "Less varied" as it would have "Less variation". [/quote] Yes. The FPS genre since the release of COD has been almost all COD clones up until the last few years. [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51531820] So a shooter on a console is a "Brain dead campfest" by definition?[/QUOTE] Most of the ones designed with controllers in mind are. The most popular FPS on consoles from the release of COD up until Overwatch were as well. Even the video pretty much explained why that is the case. A controller limits what type of games a developer can make for an FPS.
I think this is a really good discussion to be had several years ago when things were really that dire. Gamepad shooters took the industry by the storm and everyone rushed to make them, it left a huge imprint on the genre. But these days the focus shifting more towards PC again and we're getting games like Wolfenstein, Doom, Titanfall etc. which have more of a focus on fast-paced arena-style gameplay. Even Call of Duty is desperately trying to morph into that type of game. And instead of it, the conservative Battlefield is being criticized for a lack of originality and stale gameplay. Did the devs completely butcher the genre to make it accessible for console players? I agree. Was the damage irreparable? No. We're recovering.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51531625]It's fair to say modern games have flaws. But you act kinda like old games were flawless. They weren't. They also had flaws. Control schemes on Doom were terrible before they added mouses to the control scheme, even then, once the "Gold Standard" had been hit, there was still tons of things that old classic games did that seem heavily flawed to me. I loved old school games, it's what I grew up with, and I can recognize that games today are sometimes lacking in certain elements, but I can also look at modern games and see that old games were quite flawed too so it's really a matter of nostalgia goggles IMO. System Shock, for instance, is a wonderful game that is heavily marred by it's control scheme and doesn't garner a lot of favour from it's "Approachability" front. Now, say whatever you will about a game being "approachable" but I don't think making games arcane, and difficult to understand is a good thing for anyone.[/QUOTE] Arrow keys for DOOM are bad (in fact that is why I mentioned them in my video) but as time goes on it should be expected that controls should get better, not worse. The first System shock does have really obtuse and annoying controls but that is caused by the opposite problem as say Call of Duty. COD was designed to appeal to the most people so it was dumbed down for controls. System shock on the other hand didn't concern itself with being friendly to the average user and so it's controls are bad because of it.
Idk why Halo gets cited a lot when Halo was designed around its controller, with the level design and enemies reflecting that. In Halo the challenge isn't aim but how well you know the levels and enemy behavior. The movement changes in Halo 5 make relying on aim assist a really stupid idea in multiplayer, though that game's aim assist is the most hand-holdy out of all of them. If anything console shooters like Halo, Destiny and Titanfall 2 prioritize their map design, which was way smarter and should've been cited in your video imo.
[QUOTE=mchapra;51532309]Idk why Halo gets cited a lot when Halo was designed around its controller, with the level design and enemies reflecting that. In Halo the challenge isn't aim but how well you know the levels and enemy behavior. The movement changes in Halo 5 make relying on aim assist a really stupid idea in multiplayer, though that game's aim assist is the most hand-holdy out of all of them. If anything console shooters like Halo, Destiny and Titanfall 2 prioritize their map design, which was way smarter and should've been cited in your video imo.[/QUOTE] Too bad the games past 3 changed to be more like COD by lowering the players shield and giving more weapons ADS. 4 really felt like it didn't know it's own identity and reach's loud out system and perks took away from the element of everyone starting out equal but needing to get weapons and vehicles around the map.
[QUOTE=Metist;51532474]Too bad the games past 3 changed to be more like COD by lowering the players shield and giving more weapons ADS. 4 really felt like it didn't know it's own identity and reach's loud out system and perks took away from the element of everyone starting out equal but needing to get weapons and vehicles around the map.[/QUOTE] the aim down sights in halo 5 has no bonus to accuracy
[QUOTE=Metist;51532474]Too bad the games past 3 changed to be more like COD by lowering the players shield and giving more weapons ADS. 4 really felt like it didn't know it's own identity and reach's loud out system and perks took away from the element of everyone starting out equal but needing to get weapons and vehicles around the map.[/QUOTE] While 4 did have a crisis of identity, you have no idea what you're talking about otherwise. Reach's loadouts just gave you a starting weapon set and ability to even the spawning field, there was still shit on the maps, and they weren't for all modes. 5 added the smart scopes but they were basically just a mini-zoom with a reticle overtop so that players could try to tune their shots better, it didn't punish the hipfire and movement standards and infact movement was expanded in Halo 5.
[QUOTE=mchapra;51532309]Idk why Halo gets cited a lot when Halo was designed around its controller, with the level design and enemies reflecting that. In Halo the challenge isn't aim but how well you know the levels and enemy behavior. The movement changes in Halo 5 make relying on aim assist a really stupid idea in multiplayer, though that game's aim assist is the most hand-holdy out of all of them. If anything console shooters like Halo, Destiny and Titanfall 2 prioritize their map design, which was way smarter and should've been cited in your video imo.[/QUOTE] Destiny's got an insane amount of aim assist. When aiming at people you might both as well stand still. Titanfall's a multiplat shooter, not just a console shooter, and having played both on PC and PS4 I gotta say the aim assist makes a huge difference both at CQC and longer ranges. Assault Rifles are dominating on console and SMGs on pc, just because ARs have more aim assist at range on consoles.
[QUOTE=Lizzrd;51532622]Destiny's got an insane amount of aim assist. When aiming at people you might both as well stand still. Titanfall's a multiplat shooter, not just a console shooter, and having played both on PC and PS4 I gotta say the aim assist makes a huge difference both at CQC and longer ranges. Assault Rifles are dominating on console and SMGs on pc, just because ARs have more aim assist at range on consoles.[/QUOTE] Still, both manage to change the dynamics a bit by having interesting map design and movesets for characters. It doesn't do away with the problems brought on by it but I think there should've been more of a nuanced take on how developers are actually tackling these problems in their level design and game mechanics.
[QUOTE=SGTNAPALM;51530455]Speaking of gyro controls, look at what can be achieved with the Steam Controller when using the touchpad and the gyro in tandem for mouselook. [media]https://youtu.be/O_QP-k0YuIU[/media] This dude is better than me with a mouse.[/QUOTE] That's actually really impressive, but no matter how good you are it's gonna be hard to reach global with that controller. Sure it can be way better than the classic controllers once you tweak it right and get used to it, but it still feels like you're playing on a crappy 5€ mouse with jittery tracking and acceleration. It's still a significant handicap compared to playing with a decent mouse.
The level of control you have with the mouse vastly differs across games too. I noticed that in a hectic game like Quake I could land nearly every shot effortlessly while in Gta v, which is much slower, I had trouble getting the same level of accuracy. I don't really like CoD, but I have to admit to the devs that playing those games with a mouse feels really tight and responsive.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51531820]Okay so I'm just arguing with your """""Objective""""" opinion about these things, then? I haven't once stated a controller is a better control surface. It isn't. It's just not nearly as terrible as you make it seem. Would the genre be "Less Varied", or "More varied" if it lacked a whole type of shooting games to replace them with the ones you've listed? I think it would be accurate to say the removal of a type of shooter, would make the genre "Less varied" as it would have "Less variation". You're right, not all shooters were quake clones, kinda weird how I never said that they were? So a shooter on a console is a "Brain dead campfest" by definition? I honestly haven't played one in years but I would hesitate to generalize so widely, but you're not bothered by that it would seem.[/QUOTE] Dude, every single post you make, you come across as a [I]massive[/I] bellend. Can you tone it down a bit and start acting like the decent human being I'm sure you are? You're arguing with real people, not just their online personas.
[QUOTE=pebkac;51532994]That's actually really impressive, but no matter how good you are it's gonna be hard to reach global with that controller. Sure it can be way better than the classic controllers once you tweak it right and get used to it, but it still feels like you're playing on a crappy 5€ mouse with jittery tracking and acceleration. It's still a significant handicap compared to playing with a decent mouse.[/QUOTE] If you're getting acceleration, then you probably turned it on in the settings. If you're getting jittery tracking, you need to lower the in-game sens to the minimum and raise the Steam Controller sensitivity up. Even if you ignore these tips, it's still not like playing on a crappy $5 mouse.
[QUOTE=Cpt. Cakes;51533163]If you're getting acceleration, then you probably turned it on in the settings. If you're getting jittery tracking, you need to lower the in-game sens to the minimum and raise the Steam Controller sensitivity up. Even if you ignore these tips, it's still not like playing on a crappy $5 mouse.[/QUOTE] That's the thing about the steam controller, the pads are just too small to give you the same kind of precision and speed you'd get from a proper mouse. You pretty much need to use a fairly high sensitivity and some acceleration or else you won't be able to turn around fast enough. I always use acceleration on laptop trackpads, and with SC it feels just as necessary. You have to make a sacrifice somewhere. The gyro is fairly low resolution too, so while it's a nice addition you can't expect wonders from it. You can see it in the guy's video too, he isn't exactly snapping onto people's heads with pinpoint precision, he's just sort of close enough to get the job done.
My uncle has an interesting setup. He uses a controller in his left hand to move around and a mouse in his right hand for aim.
[QUOTE=patq911;51533544]My uncle has an interesting setup. He uses a controller in his left hand to move around and a mouse in his right hand for aim.[/QUOTE] [img]https://www.geek.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/hori_fps_controller_01.jpg[/img] He might like pic related. I am surprised we don't have more control schemes like this. The analog stick is the best device for movement and the mouse is the best device for aim. Imagine being able to play say a platformer shooter hybrid game with it.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;51533878][img]https://www.geek.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/hori_fps_controller_01.jpg[/img] He might like pic related. I am surprised we don't have more control schemes like this. The analog stick is the best device for movement and the mouse is the best device for aim. Imagine being able to play say a platformer shooter hybrid game with it.[/QUOTE] this is perfect for dark souls series
A cool video on steam controller. Skip to 1:25 to see in action [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B43ibnztDLc[/media] The point of this setup is high sensitivity/acceleration on the right pad, and very low sensitivity on the gyro. It doesn't look quite as precise as a mouse, but it looks pretty damn good, and a bit better at large angle snapping than I do (with fairly low sensitivity on games like Overwatch).
[QUOTE=RikohZX;51532611]While 4 did have a crisis of identity, you have no idea what you're talking about otherwise. Reach's loadouts just gave you a starting weapon set and ability to even the spawning field, there was still shit on the maps, and they weren't for all modes. 5 added the smart scopes but they were basically just a mini-zoom with a reticle overtop so that players could try to tune their shots better, it didn't punish the hipfire and movement standards and infact movement was expanded in Halo 5.[/QUOTE] It is a preference for design philosophy but in halo all players started out equal meaning the difference between players on a map was their skill and what they got from the map. With loadouts you don't know what a player has. Because of this loud outs made a big difference to the design.
I use the steam controller in gta5 and it's literally the perfect thing for it lets me drive and shoot without compromise [editline]15th December 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=noh_mercy;51534000]this is perfect for dark souls series[/QUOTE] this literally makes no sense unless you're an archer when do you really need a mouse?
[QUOTE=DoctorSalt;51534518]A cool video on steam controller. Skip to 1:25 to see in action [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B43ibnztDLc[/media] The point of this setup is high sensitivity/acceleration on the right pad, and very low sensitivity on the gyro. It doesn't look quite as precise as a mouse, but it looks pretty damn good, and a bit better at large angle snapping than I do (with fairly low sensitivity on games like Overwatch).[/QUOTE] What about wrist fatigue / gaming with controller held at odd angles? When I play games on the couch there's sometimes quite a lot of idle motion controller experiences while I play. Would that be an issue for such a setup?
[QUOTE=rndgenerator;51534882]What about wrist fatigue / gaming with controller held at odd angles? When I play games on the couch there's sometimes quite a lot of idle motion controller experiences while I play. Would that be an issue for such a setup?[/QUOTE] I never experience wrist fatigue, personally. Usually you set it up so that the gyro only triggers when your thumb is on the touchpad, meaning you can easily reposition if needed. I'd say it would be fine. [editline]15th December 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=pebkac;51532994]That's actually really impressive, but no matter how good you are it's gonna be hard to reach global with that controller. Sure it can be way better than the classic controllers once you tweak it right and get used to it, but it still feels like you're playing on a crappy 5€ mouse with jittery tracking and acceleration. It's still a significant handicap compared to playing with a decent mouse.[/QUOTE] For sure, which is why I'm saying this stuff is in its infancy but the potential is still there.
[QUOTE=rndgenerator;51534882]What about wrist fatigue / gaming with controller held at odd angles? When I play games on the couch there's sometimes quite a lot of idle motion controller experiences while I play. Would that be an issue for such a setup?[/QUOTE] not in my experience.
Why do people mention BF2? The gunplay in that game was rather awful all around. BF3/4 slow down a bit but it fits completely with the setting. It makes sense you'd use ironsights in most situations in a modern military shooter.
[QUOTE=imasillypiggy;51530247]Gyro controls and light guns are able to be used while on a couch and at the same time even just using a mouse on an arm rest or stand is superior to using analog sticks. Fighting games don't disable fight sticks despite them being better and costing a ton of money. You can buy a mouse for $7, a playstation move for only $12 and your controller already has gyroscope technology built in. In this case the better alternative is also the cheaper alternative. If someone STILL wants to use the worse control scheme then that should be on them. On top of this on PC games where using a controller is better (like say fighting games where a controller is better than a keyboard) developers don't disable controller players. The way things are done now force the player to use a frankly bad control scheme and dumb down the gameplay just so playing with a controller is even possible and even then a mouse, light gun, ect is STILL the better option.[/QUOTE] You're still missing the point that people don't want to buy a console they can play on the couch then have to use a mouse and keyboard on their armrest.
[QUOTE=Metist;51531849]I never said you did.[/QUOTE] Not outright, but you sure seem to be implying it from what I can tell [QUOTE]Yes. The FPS genre since the release of COD has been almost all COD clones up until the last few years.[/QUOTE] Okay so let me make my point on this clearer, because maybe my english didn't communicate what I meant here. If you looked at the shooter genre, and categorized all the different types of shooters, and say you came up with 8 different types(i'm just using this as an example) then you would have the baseline variety. Now, the "COD" flavoured shooter would be a type of shooter. If you were to remove that from existence, would the genre be more, or less diverse? If you go from 8 types, to 7 types, you are losing variety. I think there is [B]value[/B] in this form of diversity. More strokes for more folks. [QUOTE]Most of the ones designed with controllers in mind are. The most popular FPS on consoles from the release of COD up until Overwatch were as well. Even the video pretty much explained why that is the case.[/QUOTE] The video explains that but doesn't do a great job at showing why that is a manner of shooter that just shouldn't exist or shouldn't be popular. Consoles made gaming popular, the Xbox-360-One and it's competitors in the playstation market have made gaming a bigger market. They've popularized gaming, allowing gaming to see the current resurgance it is on PC as more and more people realize that it's a customizable and optimal way to play games in the modern world. But we can't just, and shouldn't just write off those games as being bad games, or being unenjoyable because you find them to be bad. That is taste, not objective. [QUOTE]A controller limits what type of games a developer can make for an FPS.[/QUOTE] Sure, I never argued it didn't but I don't think it makes the genre, the type of game, or the playstyle seen with in worse as a whole. You haven't at any point said this, but arguing with your view leads me to believe that you just wouldn't have console shooters exist period if you had your way, I'm not really down with that even if I don't play them. Those games existing has not made my experience as a gamer worse and it hasn't tarnished other games. [editline]15th December 2016[/editline] [QUOTE=Stopper;51533101]Dude, every single post you make, you come across as a [I]massive[/I] bellend. Can you tone it down a bit and start acting like the decent human being I'm sure you are? You're arguing with real people, not just their online personas.[/QUOTE] thanks for the laugh
I've used those FragFX on PS3 and I really like the analog stick + mouse control scheme tbh. As much as I love WASD, the analog stick solves having to have a dedicated walk button in certain shooters and have it be more precise.
[QUOTE=gk99;51531655]Well yeah, they literally tell you to do this in the tutorial for that very reason.[/QUOTE] Really? I don't remember it.
[QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51535052] If you looked at the shooter genre, and categorized all the different types of shooters, and say you came up with 8 different types(i'm just using this as an example) then you would have the baseline variety. Now, the "COD" flavoured shooter would be a type of shooter. If you were to remove that from existence, would the genre be more, or less diverse?[/quote] You are acting like tactical military shooters were invented with COD. COD wasn't the first, it just popularized it because it is the genre that works best on controllers. [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51535052] The video explains that but doesn't do a great job at showing why that is a manner of shooter that just shouldn't exist or shouldn't be popular. [/quote] The issue is that it doesn't control very well and needs to lower it's depth to be able to deal with a bad control design. Tactical shooters are fine but COD is only popular because it works with a bad control system. COD isn't anywhere near the most popular shooter on the PC because on the PC players have more options. Console players play COD because they have less options. COD is a dumbed down version of a genre with better examples. [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51535052] Consoles made gaming popular, the Xbox-360-One and it's competitors in the playstation market have made gaming a bigger market. They've popularized gaming, allowing gaming to see the current resurgance it is on PC as more and more people realize that it's a customizable and optimal way to play games in the modern world.[/quote] No one is saying consoles shouldn't exist. Also I highly doubt the ps4 and xbone had anything to do with the PC becoming more popular. Even if that is the case that in no way is a defense of COD and games like it. [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51535052]But we can't just, and shouldn't just write off those games as being bad games, or being unenjoyable because you find them to be bad. That is taste, not objective.[/quote] Sure, everything is subjective but COD is a pretty bad game compared to other shooters on a mechanical level. But the biggest issue isn't that COD is worse than it's competition it's that it's become the (at least over the last 8 years) the dominate type of shooter and almost the only type that got made for years because better games simply wouldn't work on the controller or not nearly as well. [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51535052] Sure, I never argued it didn't but I don't think it makes the genre, the type of game, or the playstyle seen with in worse as a whole. [/quote] It is a less well designed game. It has major flaws caused by it's bad control scheme. [QUOTE=HumanAbyss;51535052] You haven't at any point said this, but arguing with your view leads me to believe that you just wouldn't have console shooters exist period if you had your way, [/QUOTE] I would have people all have the option to play shooters with control schemes that are far more functional. Before another person says that it isn't fair for the people playing with analog sticks well that is the choice they made. People who play splatoon with analog stick have a disadvantage to people who play with a gyro. People who play L4D with a controller on PC have a disadvantage compared to people who play with a mouse and keyboard. They are willingly gimping themselves and that is their own fault.
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