Far-right activist Richard Spencer is punched on camera while being interviewed - General

[QUOTE=Eric95;51702171]Except propagating and normalizing his rhetoric[/QUOTE] How you managed to turn "fight opinions with opinions, not ass beatings" into "propagating and normalizing Nazi rhetoric" is beyond me. [QUOTE]encourages the actually violent ones to do things[/QUOTE] Funny how the only act of violence in this situation was perpetrated by a ~peaceful and progressive anti-fascist~

I'm liberal and I advocate for tolerance of all ideas and beliefs, unless I don't like them. In that case I am in favor of violence against them because I believe we should only tolerate some ideas and beliefs.

[QUOTE=DOG-GY;51702197]It doesn't, it's just funny. Good luck changing the mind of a white supremacist. Blue moons happen though I guess.[/QUOTE] Would you consider the stories posted in this thread, such as the one about Daryl Davis, exceptions? It's a slow process but he talked down multiple KKK Grand Wizards and is responsible for ending the KKK in Maryland. If they are exceptions, would you consider these peaceful options not worth pursuing? If so, what is your proposed alternative to the peaceful options that you think will be most effective?

[QUOTE=DOG-GY;51702197]It doesn't, it's just funny. Good luck changing the mind of a white supremacist. Blue moons happen though I guess.[/QUOTE] Are you just trying to subtly say you're a white supremacist because you sound as stubborn as one.

[QUOTE=Tetsmega;51702179]Even more scary that a lot of people here aren't even level headed enough to see it's the same tactic used by crazy self-victimizing radical SJW's on tumblr. The cycle never ends on either side of the spectrum.[/QUOTE] Yes, which is honestly the worst part about this, but I think the right is the worst offender because they pretend to be rational and level-headed. With SJWs you know they're crazy and don't try to hide it, with the alt-right they use words such as "free-thinker" and "logical".

like in derek black's instance him being completely ostracized within his college's community (people flipping him off, wishing him dead etc...) literally made him get a conference together about white genocide. [quote]A few of his friends from the previous year emailed to say they felt betrayed, and strangers sometimes flipped him off from a safe distance on campus. But, for the most part, Derek avoided public spaces, and other students mostly stared or left him alone, even as their speculation about him continued on the forum. “Maybe he’s trying to get away from a life he didn’t choose.” “He chooses to be a racist public figure. We choose to call him a racist in public.” “I just want this guy to die a painful death along with his entire family. Is that too much to ask?” “I’d like to see Derek Black respond to all of this. …” Instead of replying, Derek read the forum and used it as motivation to plan a conference for white nationalists in East Tennessee. “Victory through Argumentation: Verbal tactics for anyone white and normal,” he wrote in the invitation. [/quote] if you literally think ostracization and violence are the answer you're out of your mind. it literally just further entrenches people. you need to be able to have rational human discussions. Much like Daryl Davis did, or those who convinced Derek Black that White Supremacist isn't right.

[QUOTE=bdd458;51702230]like in derek black's instance him being completely ostracized within his college's community (people flipping him off, wishing him dead etc...) literally made him get a conference together about white genocide. if you literally think ostracization and violence are the answer you're out of your mind. it literally just further entrenches people. you need to be able to have rational human discussions. Much like Daryl Davis did, or those who convinced Derek Black that White Supremacist isn't right.[/QUOTE] See this is the shit I was talking about earlier. The Alt-Right breeds hate in more ways than you think.

[QUOTE=Xubs;51702181]I don't believe they are less echo chambery in the past, I actually believe the opposite. I believe that yellow journalism, tabloids, and racism are given a bigger audience now and their spread is much quicker and more immediate. These ideas present themselves with the same immediacy to a worldwide audience that was previously a privilege only given to people who could afford their own cable or radio broadcast, and the text-based nature of the internet makes it much easier to present these ideas with the same air of legitimacy that more mainstream ideas already used. This makes it easier to indoctrinate people who are not raised to question everything they see on the internet and makes these ideas pop up and bounce outside of their tightly-knit communities than previous.[/QUOTE] So then the issue is clearly an educational one. The concern then isn't about the information spreading, because information will always freely spread regardless of our efforts, as you argue, perhaps rightly, and it should always spread freely. The concern is now raising children who are capable of questioning everything they see online. About providing easy access to educational materials with which to undo indoctrination, and giving people avenues to get away from anybody who seeks to control them safely.

[QUOTE=bdd458;51702230]like in derek black's instance him being completely ostracized within his college's community (people flipping him off, wishing him dead etc...) literally made him get a conference together about white genocide. if you literally think ostracization and violence are the answer you're out of your mind. it literally just further entrenches people. you need to be able to have rational human discussions. Much like Daryl Davis did, or those who convinced Derek Black that White Supremacist isn't right.[/QUOTE] This is why rational people say the deconstruction of a white supremacist's ideas are the best way of combating white supremacy. It normalizes the legitimacy of community beliefs and change of ideals through a peaceful and logical method. If expressive nazi's are removed through violence, what do you think they will use in turn as justification for their own actions.

[QUOTE=Xubs;51702224]He's not saying that at all. He's saying offering a branch of sympathy is what is normalizing it. I agree, debating and deconstructing is the better way to go about it (though again, debating's effectiveness feels like it is increasingly next to nothing at all with what I've seen recently), but let's not mince words, Spencer's a huge scumbag. I think what Eric95 is trying to say, and what I would agree with, is that saying that Richard Spencer is anything more than a victim of his own ignorance when he gets punched upside the head is giving people the idea that Nazism IS "just a political opinion." It isn't, it's evil. He wouldn't get punched if he wasn't a Nazi. Make no mistake, I legitimately believe he [B]shouldn't[/B] get punched, but that doesn't mean if he walked up to me and espoused his beliefs I wouldn't spit at his feet. Emotional reasoning works incredibly and it always has depending on the context, being mad at people IS an effective way to have people think you have a point if you pull it off absolutely right. I don't think that's stupid at all to say. Punching's too far and I agree, but I ain't sympathizing with Spencer, not now or ever, and I will never not use some amount of emotionally charged wording because really, it has to be known that it is just that unacceptable.[/QUOTE] I really don't think offering to talk to and debating someone is offering them sympathy. Not talking to people of different opinions is almost guaranteed to not work. Any idea must be able to be scrutinized, even the painfully obvious bad ideas. If we don't regularly think of why something is bad idea, we might forget why we discarded that as a idea and an ideology. "Why are the nazis the bad guys?" despite being a question that seems too easy right now, how bad does it sound 200 years from now?

if you want open warfare in the streets then by all means continue "bashing the fash", i just hope if you espouse such beliefs then you truly understand what you're getting both yourself and the many innocents that will be caught in the crossfire into [editline]20th January 2017[/editline] like, that is the logical conclusion to using violence to suppress, even if what is being suppress is evil

morality is arbitrary, violence against racists because they're 'wrong' and 'horrible people' isn't justice. you aren't objectively doing humanity a favour, you just believe you are [editline]20th January 2017[/editline] also the alt-right are just disillusioned conservatives, i wouldn't call them fascists as it appears to be a completely social movement and lacking wide support for fascist ideals such as corporatism (and fascism isn't inherently racist, just the weird german brand)

[QUOTE=Tetsmega;51702228]Are you just trying to subtly say you're a white supremacist because you sound as stubborn as one.[/QUOTE] wtf

[QUOTE=Tudd;51701274][media]https://twitter.com/MrTrunney/status/822580347409932290[/media][/QUOTE] Man, why do Neo-Nazis have to steal all the memes.

[QUOTE=Levithan;51701736]When the other side is literal goddamn fascism, it's hardly hypocritical.[/QUOTE] Like clockwork.

I love how this entire situation has turned the usual leftists who preach peace and love into violent wanna be thugs,I can't wait to see this shit blow up

Yeah reading through this thread is making me uncomfortable. When did it become okay to sucker punch people in the face because they say stupid shit? It might be cathartic if not for the fact that its probably just going to make things worse.

[QUOTE=AaronM202;51702787]Yeah reading through this thread is making me uncomfortable. When did it become okay to sucker punch people in the face because they say stupid shit? It might be cathartic if not for the fact that its probably just going to make things worse.[/QUOTE] Because having a facist dictator as your president is the best opportunity to be the hero of a resistance movement you always dreamt of

[QUOTE=AaronM202;51702787]Yeah reading through this thread is making me uncomfortable. When did it become okay to sucker punch people in the face because they say stupid shit? It might be cathartic if not for the fact that its probably just going to make things worse.[/QUOTE] Oh I am not surprised at all what this thread turned into. I think Richard Spencer is interesting in that he represents the most despicable views, but keeps it civil and within the law. So it really is a situation of freedom of speech being used to the full extent. The guy simply hasn't called to action his supporters to attack or expressed violent views. I don't really care if you wish for the guy to get punched, that's fine, but he is protected by freedom of speech and when these events happen, it was him who was assaulted.

[QUOTE=bdd458;51702206]yeah dude the KKK in Maryland was a blue moon. So was Derek Black when people decided to stop ostracizing him and instead decided to start conversing with him. Definitely a blue moon :) like instead of treating these people as ya know, people, who have an extremely flawed viewpoint you're treating them as if they're something that needs to be wiped out and "the other".[/QUOTE] yeah dude that's my actual opinion kill them all funny yall talk about not ostracizing people and yet i get this presumtive shitpost and called a white supremacist?????????? by Tetsmega practice what you preach my dude

[QUOTE=Zombinie;51702134]Please guys just hear me out; the advocating of violence here hurts me and I want to explain why. I never expected I would have to defend a nazi, but what surprised me more is who I would be defending the nazi from. A new age of tolerance and understanding my ass. I want to make something very clear because apparently some people have this confused. Tolerance towards someones beliefs and tolerance towards someones actions. What some of you propose is intolerance towards someones beliefs, which I find disgusting. Yes, he is a nazi. And yes, his beliefs are revolting, backwards and worthy of more than scrutiny. But to not be tolerant towards those beliefs is hypocritical of us and unproductive in the grand scheme of things. Believe me, if he acted on those beliefs and actually started killing people or subjugating a race I would be up there with you, shoving a pitchfork up his ass, but the fact is that he is not. He is a holder of beliefs and only beliefs. It is reasonable to be intolerant of someones actions, because those directly and irreversibly effect people, I am talking about violence, and in that case it would only be right to harm him in defense of others. But what I see here is intolerance of beliefs and thoughts, and again, that is unacceptable in the same way that his views are. So I am not harming you, I am talking to you in an attempt to convince you. Take a note. When someone has beliefs such as his, you have two options: 1. Curb-stomp him, kill him, send him to a camp, beat him, whatever you want because obviously he is subhuman and unworthy of compassion. -or- 2. Listen to him, hear why he believes what he believes, explain what you think, continue the conversation and work like hell to come to an understanding. When you opt for violence towards someone who thinks differently than you, congratulations, you are the textbook definition of bigoted. You have not convinced him, you have not changed his mind, you have not given him a chance. I think this is a saddening failure and I expect we can do better. Believe it or not, nazis are humans too. Shitty humans, but still humans. They have families and a childhood and dreams and aspirations. When the nazis lost, did we put them in death camps because "lol, an eye for an eye" or execute them in swathes indiscriminately? No, we took the high road BECAUSE WE ARE BETTER THAN THEM. We gave them a fair trial and some were executed, some were put in prison. If someone can be convinced to become a nazi, then someone can be convinced to relinquish those beliefs. And if we have the chance to try to help them understand why what they are doing is wrong then we have an obligation to. Until they begin killing, until they begin harming, we are no better than them by disregarding their basic humanity and treating them like trash. I though we were better than this.[/QUOTE] But that requires both left and right authoritarians to actually use logic and decency in which they don't have any of that.

[QUOTE=Campin Carl;51701987]Because being a nazi automatically means you want to exterminate all subhumans. Just like being a muslim automatically makes you a suicide bomber, and that being a socialist automatically makes you want to send political dissidents into gulags for the next 40 years.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Campin Carl;51702030]Me saying "Fogooman should be killed" is not violence. Me taking an axe and violently beating you is violence. It's not violence until it's physical. Preaching and encouraging hate is immoral, wrong and rarely, if ever, justified. But it's not violence.[/QUOTE] Blizzerd's twin brother is that you? I cannot believe you actually think that an ideology set up specifically for committing genocide is the same as both a religion and an economic philosphy like I don't even know how to respond this is just so hilariously incompetent that I really hope you reread what you said a few years down the road and think to yourself "Haha man what was I thinking" [editline]21st January 2017[/editline] Like I understand where you're coming from but holy fuck did you drop the ball with the comparison

[QUOTE=ROFLBURGER;51702229]Yes, which is honestly the worst part about this, but I think the right is the worst offender because they pretend to be rational and level-headed. With SJWs you know they're crazy and don't try to hide it, with the alt-right they use words such as "free-thinker" and "logical".[/QUOTE] Anita sarkesian doesn't pretend to be rational as she lectures the UN about how sexist mario is? Rationalwiki doesn't pretend to be rational? everyone likes to portray themselves as the one who isn't an idiot, myself included mind you, this particular point has nothing to do with left or right. [editline]21st January 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Levithan;51701736]When the other side is literal goddamn fascism, it's hardly hypocritical.[/QUOTE] the entire point of fascism being bad is about using violence against people who disagree with you. It's dangerous because it's an easy trap to fall into, you prove their point that violence is the only answer and you convince more people to join them. But this goes further for you, you're a poster who posts about "the imperium of straights". You clearly like to convince yourself that everyone you disagree with is either fascist or has elements of fascism, and then you end up here rationalizing violence against fascists. There's not a big step here before you're stuck in a mire of convincing yourself everyone you disagree with should be beaten into submission and you'll never find out they arent actually fascists because you'll think "fascists cant be talked to". This is exactly what i think caused many of the news stories and videos of trump supporters being attacked or tortured to be justified by those people. Hear that trump supporters are facists, hear that facists can't be reasoned with and since they advocate violence you're justified in using it on them, never talk with them because "cant be reasoned with" then before even actually talking to one you're a felon and your ideological opponents point to you and say "this is our enemy, they are violent and we stand above them".

I wonder if the people justifying violence against white supremacists would also justify murdering white supremacists.

[video]https://twitter.com/thomas_violence/status/822645291815936006[/video]

[QUOTE=Eric95;51703381][video]https://twitter.com/thomas_violence/status/822645291815936006[/video][/QUOTE] We also need to refer to them as white nationalists because they're really not nazis, you guys! You'll hurt their feelings!

[QUOTE=Eric95;51703381][video]https://twitter.com/thomas_violence/status/822645291815936006[/video][/QUOTE] Responding with violence only causes them to become more deeply entrenched in their established beliefs. Whereas responding to them in a manner they don't expect at least gives you chance to change their minds.

[QUOTE=bdd458;51702206] like instead of treating these people as ya know, people, who have an extremely flawed viewpoint you're treating them as if they're something that needs to be wiped out and "the other".[/QUOTE] The one thing about this post I don't get is what if you are the "non person" in the eyes of the supremacist lol very unlikely they will actually listen to what you say. Like they already despise you why will they listen to you Treat others the way you want to be treated. Treat someone like scum, they will treat you the same. Especially before you even meet the person, and treat them like shit because of prejudice (making you know, the one with the prejudice the initial aggressor) Like I understand the Derek case but he willingly entered a school of many different views and had to live among them. It's not really the same as some of the honest to God shit for brains Nazis out there

Being cool and edgy on Twitter, the Nazi's only weakness! Sure showed them.

[QUOTE=DOG-GY;51703107]yeah dude that's my actual opinion kill them all funny yall talk about not ostracizing people and yet i get this presumtive shitpost and called a white supremacist?????????? by Tetsmega practice what you preach my dude[/QUOTE] Sorry it was just the way you were so condescending about it since all you could see in an assault victim was humor in the irony of his political views. Let's just let bygones be bygones and agree violence is not a preferable way of changing people's minds.