Far-right activist Richard Spencer is punched on camera while being interviewed - General

[QUOTE=Eric95;51703381][video]https://twitter.com/thomas_violence/status/822645291815936006[/video][/QUOTE] hey eric will you abandon your animation or whatever it is your doing in japan to join the actual war that you're promoting or will you just convince other people to go fight and die while sitting back and watching from your place of safety

If a person has a violent ideology, punching them is like hammering a nail. The nail is their conviction toward their opinions, and the fist that punches them is the hammer driving it in further and further. Meanwhile, meaningful discussion regarding why something is bad could be considered the nail pulling end that MIGHT extract the deep driven nail. Ignorance doesn't disappear with purging or suppression, but with education.

reacting violently literally only serves to confirm 100% of their beliefs in their head regardless of how much they deserve it you'd have to be an idiot to actually believe you can reason with violence you're pretty much telling them that you're impossible to reason with and that they are in the right [editline]21st January 2017[/editline] I mean yeah nazi's should be punched and all that except you're just validating them and making them even worse people Violence is a self-undermining action that only serves to create more violence. Even though you're probably never going to get through to a Nazi of all people, the less unreasonable you act the more reasonable someone who is unreasonable to begin with will react. [editline]21st January 2017[/editline] though tbh Nitro836 worded it more intelligently and artfully than myself

Should people who just speak be punched? Even if they're nazis? Is someone being a nazi reason enough for them to be punchable even if they're not violent? That's a rather silly idea. If you get provoked to violence through words, you're the problem.

[QUOTE=Primigenes;51703687]Not to mention I honestly don't think anyone should care about them being further entrenched in their views. I'm not their babysitter and if they lack the critical thinking skills to see context in a situation and stop generalizing people then so be it. [/QUOTE] if you actually care about fighting against the ideology and removing any influence it has you should care about them getting further entrenched in their views. [editline]21st January 2017[/editline] you don't have to sympathize with or defend the dude being punched is saying to see punching him as a poor tactical move unless your end goal is increasing the violence

[QUOTE=KillRay;51703407]The one thing about this post I don't get is what if you are the "non person" in the eyes of the supremacist lol very unlikely they will actually listen to what you say. Like they already despise you why will they listen to you Treat others the way you want to be treated. Treat someone like scum, they will treat you the same. Especially before you even meet the person, and treat them like shit because of prejudice (making you know, the one with the prejudice the initial aggressor) Like I understand the Derek case but he willingly entered a school of many different views and had to live among them. It's not really the same as some of the honest to God shit for brains Nazis out there[/QUOTE] Yet Daryl Davis, a black man, was able to convince many members of the KKK to give those views up. So no, you're still wrong. It takes time, effort, and having to hear disgusting shit but it has, and can, and will be done. It all goes back to being a bigger person and not stooping to that level.

[QUOTE=Primigenes;51703783]Most people on the street just don't want you hurling hate speech. They couldn't care less what your view is. Normal people don't want to feel like they're being attacked especially by groups that align with the KKK or Nazis which have a history. I'm not going to condemn people for attacking him when he basically promote Neo Nazi speech. They shouldn't have to respect your opinion and it's not their job to baby you. We're talking about normal people just trying to go about their lives not keyboard warriors on the internet. And for all this shit you guys talk what do any of you actually do to suppress these view points. Like I'm hearing all this shit but I don't think any of you actively go out there and do shit about these sites or debating twitter trolls so I don't see why you should expect normal people to. Spreading an ideology that talks about treating people as inferior and someone assaults you? Not my cup of tea but no shit. You guys say you're being rational but you really aren't. Ok, go debate them no one is saying you shouldn't. But it is pointless to state that these people are just going to get entrenched on an internet forum while also idiopathic to attack someone who felt the need to assault a Nazi. If some Tutsi kid in Rwanda kicked your ass for proposing policies that are basically another Rwandan genocide lite I'm not going to be posting "wow, way to entrench people in your views" If some lady who got raped wanted to have an abortion I'm not going to blame them for being mad or hitting you for it. Do I believe that people should just be attacking each other over disagreements? No, but you're playing with peoples lives. Being a Neo Nazi isn't a joke and your beliefs, the shit you say and do define you as a person. And I know alot of you are argumentative and you're going to assume I believe in attacking people over disagreements. No I don't but I believe it's wrong to callously condemn people who are directly affected by the things you say. Thats the problem with people in general. A lack of empathy[/QUOTE] I understand that in the heat of the moment shit like what the nazi guy was saying can anger people and potentially provoke them to violence. hell, I don't even blame the guy who punched him. where i get concerned is people actively promoting assault and violence as an effective tactic to combat his ideology. i'll admit that violence can be effective to fight against ideologies but only if you use overwhelming force and absolutely exterminate all who follow that ideology. any less use of violence will only, as said, further entrench people in their views, give them ammo for prosetylization, and provoke them to respond with violence. since i don't support mass killing and fighting, I don't support the use of violence to combat ideology except under the most dire circumstances. nonviolent methods can be just as effective if not moreso than violent, though it isn't as dramatic, cathartic, or admittedly fast.

[QUOTE=Ninja Gnome;51703833]I understand that in the heat of the moment shit like what the nazi guy was saying can anger people and potentially provoke them to violence. hell, I don't even blame the guy who punched him. where i get concerned is people actively promoting assault and violence as an effective tactic to combat his ideology. i'll admit that violence can be effective to fight against ideologies but only if you use overwhelming force and absolutely exterminate all who follow that ideology. any less use of violence will only, as said, further entrench people in their views, give them ammo for prosetylization, and provoke them to respond with violence. since i don't support mass killing and fighting, I don't support the use of violence to combat ideology except under the most dire circumstances. nonviolent methods can be just as effective if not moreso than violent, though it isn't as dramatic, cathartic, or admittedly fast.[/QUOTE] worrying about "entrenching" richard spencer in his own views is an odd thing, like being concerned that a man who dug a hole 4000 miles deep might dig himself a foot deeper and reach the centre of the earth. as far as I can tell he spent his entire adult life ensconcing himself in nutty Carlylean beliefs. you think he's gonna change his mind if someone sits down with him and extols the virtues of a liberal, tolerant society? you call people cowards for sitting back and letting someone else punch this guy in the face. but someone [I]did[/I] punch him in the face. the tangible result is a LOT of folks talking about nazis getting punched in the face: [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/k7NA9NP.png[/IMG] what have you done to combat this scum? if it's so easy to change this guy's mind by debating him, why hasn't someone sat down and done it? for that matter, why haven't [I]you [/I]done it? he's on twitter, anyone can talk right to him [URL="https://twitter.com/RichardBSpencer?lang=en-gb"]there[/URL] in fact, I'll issue you and anyone else here a direct challenge: if you manage to convince richard spencer on twitter that being a white nationalist is wrong with nothing but civil discourse - that is to say, un-entrench him from his reprehensible political and moral views - I will change my mind and admit that punching this guy was wrong and a bad thing to do, and not cool at all. I'm absolutely not against admitting I'm wrong. you will have literally changed my mind. how about it? [editline]21st January 2017[/editline] also I don't agree that nonviolent methods aren't cathartic. they are WAY more cathartic than violence. watching a complete shithead getting punched out is hilarious, but it's nothing compared to one person admitting they were wrong and reconciling with a promise to do better. I wish I could see that happen with richard spencer. but I don't believe it's ever going to happen. but I could be wrong!

the guy that punched him is part of the take back pepe movement

[QUOTE=Turnips5;51704082]worrying about "entrenching" richard spencer in his own views is hilarious, like being concerned that a man who dug a hole 4000 miles deep might dig himself a foot deeper and reach the centre of the earth. as far as I can tell he spent his entire adult life ensconcing himself in nutty Carlylean beliefs. you think he's gonna change his mind if someone sits down with him and extols the virtues of a liberal, tolerant society?[/QUOTE] If someone takes the time to actually get to know him, converse with him, and challenge him, then yeah. It's happened before and by god it can happen again. And it's not JUST spencer that gets further entrenched, it's others who share similar beliefs when they see shit like that. "Oh wow, they're attacking us for our views - look who's actually in the right!". [QUOTE=Turnips5;51704082]you call people cowards for sitting back and letting someone else punch this guy in the face. but someone [I]did[/I] punch him in the face. the tangible result is a LOT of folks tweeting about nazis: [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/k7NA9NP.png[/IMG][/quote] That to me is more worrying, because quite frankly I didn't know who Richard Spencer was before this thread. He's basically a nobody. It's like that KKK rally I think it was in California a year or two ago, where a group decided to start being violent towards the KKK protesters. The result? What would have been a soon forgotten protest/rally that achieved nothing received attention all around the globe, those with similar beliefs start to feel vindicated because now they're being physically attacked. :goodjob: [QUOTE=Turnips5;51704082]what have you done to combat this scum? if it's so easy to change this guy's mind by debating him, why hasn't someone sat down and done it? for that matter, why haven't [I]you [/I]done it? he's on twitter, anyone can talk right to him [URL="https://twitter.com/RichardBSpencer?lang=en-gb"]there[/URL][/quote] Aside from twitter being a shitty platform for any sort of discussion, let alone a conversation, I had 0 knowledge of who he was before this thread. I'm sure I'm not the only one either. If you read the stories about Roger Kelly or Derek Black, you'll realize that their views weren't changed in an instant. It was gradual, after sitting down in actual rooms, and getting to know people. You're not going to get to do that over twitter. And even then, Daryl Davis didn't even start off looking to change people's minds, he just wanted to know what made racist people racist, how they could hate people they never met. But from that sprung actual discussions and conversations with people who held some pretty shitty and reprehensible views, and after a while, they ended up realizing the errors of their way.

[QUOTE=AaronM202;51702787]Yeah reading through this thread is making me uncomfortable. When did it become okay to sucker punch people in the face because they say stupid shit? It might be cathartic if not for the fact that its probably just going to make things worse.[/QUOTE] i don't know it might have started a few decades ago with the attempted extermination of millions of people Nazis are inherently irrational, their firm belief is in their superiority over other "races," and they reinforce this idea through false news, misleading statistics and violence. You do not sit these people down and have "rational discourse" with them. Because they have bought so deeply into this fantasy that it defines them as a person, and to go against that it a world-shaking event. You cannot debate them, you cannot change their minds, because they are arguing from a position of ignorance. Trying to correct them is pointless. I hate, hate, hate this permissive attitude people in here are taking towards fascists. This complacency was the cause of the holocaust and ultimately WW2. Why should we give oxygen to a group that believes others to be sub-human. Nationalism and racism need to be stamped out, because they are of no benefit to anyone living on this earth. Not to say that sucker punching somebody is the answer, mind you. If you believe that nazi's are just little old rascals that should have the same position as other political opinions, you seriously need to educate yourself. This should not be a controversial position to hold.

[QUOTE=bdd458;51704108]Yet [b]Daryl Dixon, a black man,[/b] was able to convince many members of the KKK to give those views up.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=bdd458;51704108]And even then, [b]Daryl Davis[/b] didn't even start off looking to change people's minds, he just wanted to know what made racist people racist, how they could hate people they never met. But from that sprung actual discussions and conversations with people who held some pretty shitty and reprehensible views, and after a while, they ended up realizing the errors of their way.[/QUOTE] Might want to fix that because the first time I googled that name all I got was Norman Reedus and I was very confused.

[QUOTE=Streecer;51704149]i don't know it might have started a few decades ago with the attempted extermination of millions of people Nazis are inherently irrational, their firm belief is in their superiority over other "races," and they reinforce this idea through false news, misleading statistics and violence. You do not sit these people down and have "rational discourse" with them. Because they have bought so deeply into this fantasy that it defines them as a person, and to go against that it a world-shaking event. You cannot debate them, you cannot change their minds, because they are arguing from a position of ignorance. Trying to correct them is pointless. I hate, hate, hate this permissive attitude people in here are taking towards fascists. This complacency was the cause of the holocaust and ultimately WW2. Why should we give oxygen to a group that believes others to be sub-human. Nationalism and racism need to be stamped out, because they are of no benefit to anyone living on this earth. Not to say that sucker punching somebody is the answer, mind you. If you believe that nazi's are just little old rascals that should have the same position as other political opinions, you seriously need to educate yourself. This should not be a controversial position to hold.[/QUOTE] yet in this thread, it's been shown how actual debate has changed the mind of a fucking IMPERIAL WIZARD, aka the HEAD OF THE KKK. so no, you CAN change their mind. It takes time, it takes a fuckload of patience and willingness to hear nasty shit. But god damn, treating someone like a person goes MUCH farther than saying "trying to correct them is pointless". [editline]21st January 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=JCDentonUNATCO;51704151]Might want to fix that because the first time I googled that name all I got was Norman Reedus and I was very confused.[/QUOTE] fuck I keep doing that and I don't know why. I don't even watch the Walking Dead :v:

why is it a problem that you now know richard spencer exists and is a walking talking anus? okay, so all of your arguments boil down to "stop giving them attention and they will cease to exist". can you give examples of where this strategy has actually ever worked?

[QUOTE=Turnips5;51704162]why is it a problem that you now know richard spencer exists and is a walking talking anus?[/QUOTE] Good job on missing the point buddy! All this violence does is give people who have similar views, and may not necessarily be part of these groups something to latch onto. Something to say "yeah, we are being persecuted!". Like seriously, at that Rally I mentioned, how many KKK members were actually there? 10? 20? 5? [URL="http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-klan-rally-in-anaheim-erupts-in-violence-one-man-stabbed-20160227-story.html"]Judging by this article on it[/URL], barely any - so little that there wasn't even police protecting them since it was such a small group. It would have happened, no one would have remembered it and everyone would have moved on - because these groups are shrinking. All this violence does is spread their message further and vindicate more to their cause and ideas. [QUOTE=Turnips5;51704162]okay, so all of your arguments boil down to "stop giving them attention and they will cease to exist". can you give examples of where this strategy has actually ever worked?[/QUOTE] my point was that he, and the kkk, have been literally inconsequential and now all this violence is doing is spreading their message further. so you missed my point.

[QUOTE=Turnips5;51704082]worrying about "entrenching" richard spencer in his own views is an odd thing, like being concerned that a man who dug a hole 4000 miles deep might dig himself a foot deeper and reach the centre of the earth. as far as I can tell he spent his entire adult life ensconcing himself in nutty Carlylean beliefs. you think he's gonna change his mind if someone sits down with him and extols the virtues of a liberal, tolerant society? you call people cowards for sitting back and letting someone else punch this guy in the face. but someone [I]did[/I] punch him in the face. the tangible result is a LOT of folks talking about nazis getting punched in the face: [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/k7NA9NP.png[/IMG] what have you done to combat this scum? if it's so easy to change this guy's mind by debating him, why hasn't someone sat down and done it? for that matter, why haven't [I]you [/I]done it? he's on twitter, anyone can talk right to him [URL="https://twitter.com/RichardBSpencer?lang=en-gb"]there[/URL] in fact, I'll issue you and anyone else here a direct challenge: if you manage to convince richard spencer on twitter that being a white nationalist is wrong with nothing but civil discourse - that is to say, un-entrench him from his reprehensible political and moral views - I will change my mind and admit that punching this guy was wrong and a bad thing to do, and not cool at all. I'm absolutely not against admitting I'm wrong. you will have literally changed my mind. how about it? [editline]21st January 2017[/editline] also I don't agree that nonviolent methods aren't cathartic. they are WAY more cathartic than violence. watching a complete shithead getting punched out is hilarious, but it's nothing compared to one person admitting they were wrong and reconciling with a promise to do better. I wish I could see that happen with richard spencer. but I don't believe it's ever going to happen. but I could be wrong![/QUOTE] this is bigger than just richard spencer. frankly, his opinion and welfare matters the least in this situation. what matters more are the people who watch this, and how they react. approval of violence from some people might scare some other people who may have sympathized him in the slightest to fall a bit deeper into their views and become that much harder to pull them out. those who already fully sympathize with him might start thinking using violence back is a good idea, and the situation escalates from there. it can work as fuel for prosetylization, giving him and his ilk ammo to recruit more people. him saying his shit would've had far less power if he hadn't been punched in his face, he would've been just another far right winger preaching to the choir about bullshit. since he was smacked in the head for what he was saying, the story exploded, spreading his words from a few thousand to likely millions. it actually worked better in the favor of his message that he got punched, because now people know his name. i know I didn't even know this dude existed before this happened.

I feel like if this had happened a year or two ago, everyone on Facepunch would be on Richard Spencer's side and kicking up a storm about how violence is unacceptable in politics, but the spectacle of Trump's victory and the sheer insufferability of his most ardent supporters has finally brought people around to the idea that punching Nazis in the face is actually cool and good.

[QUOTE=Hamaflavian;51704260]I feel like if this had happened a year or two ago, everyone on Facepunch would be on Richard Spencer's side and kicking up a storm about how violence is unacceptable in politics, but the spectacle of Trump's victory and the sheer insufferability of his most ardent supporters has finally brought people around to the idea that punching Nazis in the face is actually cool and good.[/QUOTE] No, we'd still be totally be okay with a literal nazi being clocked in the face.

I can't say that violence is a good response to a situation like this but I certainly won't feel bad for Spencer in the least. I'm honestly more surprised someone hasn't punched him out in public before now.

[QUOTE=Sir Whoopsalot;51704272]No, we'd still be totally be okay with a literal nazi being clocked in the face.[/QUOTE] You don't speak for everyone

[QUOTE=Mister Sandman;51701478]If you're a white supremacist you deserve to be punched in the face tbh[/QUOTE] what about a black supremacist

[QUOTE=upsideonion;51704439]what about a black supremacist[/QUOTE] If you're a black supremacist you also deserve to be punched in the face

[QUOTE=bdd458;51703830]Yet Daryl Davis, a black man, was able to convince many members of the KKK to give those views up. So no, you're still wrong. It takes time, effort, and having to hear disgusting shit but it has, and can, and will be done. It all goes back to being a bigger person and not stooping to that level.[/QUOTE] It can be, but I think "how to start the discourse" with these people is an honest concern in a lot of cases. Not saying to beat the shit out of them if they don't listen, clearly, but there is an issue of words falling on deaf ears. Why should they listen to "Jewish lies" or whatever they would call it.

[QUOTE=upsideonion;51704439]what about a black supremacist[/QUOTE] Black supremacists do not and have never had someone in government who is promising to turn their fantasies into policy, white supremacists do. They don't pose the same danger to Americans so they shouldn't be treated the same.

[QUOTE=Mattk50;51703271] the entire point of fascism being bad is about using violence against people who disagree with you. It's dangerous because it's an easy trap to fall into, you prove their point that violence is the only answer and you convince more people to join them. But this goes further for you, you're a poster who posts about "the imperium of straights". You clearly like to convince yourself that everyone you disagree with is either fascist or has elements of fascism, and then you end up here rationalizing violence against fascists. There's not a big step here before you're stuck in a mire of convincing yourself everyone you disagree with should be beaten into submission and you'll never find out they arent actually fascists because you'll think "fascists cant be talked to". This is exactly what i think caused many of the news stories and videos of trump supporters being attacked or tortured to be justified by those people. Hear that trump supporters are facists, hear that facists can't be reasoned with and since they advocate violence you're justified in using it on them, never talk with them because "cant be reasoned with" then before even actually talking to one you're a felon and your ideological opponents point to you and say "this is our enemy, they are violent and we stand above them".[/QUOTE] You know the saddest part about this post is how Levithan will never acknowledge it.

[QUOTE=Hamaflavian;51704465]Black supremacists do not and have never had someone in government who is promising to turn their fantasies into policy, white supremacists do. They don't pose the same danger to Americans so they shouldn't be treated the same.[/QUOTE] White supremacists pose bigger threat, so punch them in the face. Black supremacists are not a big threat, please don't punch them.

[QUOTE=Streecer;51704149]i don't know it might have started a few decades ago with the attempted extermination of millions of people Nazis are inherently irrational, their firm belief is in their superiority over other "races," and they reinforce this idea through false news, misleading statistics and violence. You do not sit these people down and have "rational discourse" with them. Because they have bought so deeply into this fantasy that it defines them as a person, and to go against that it a world-shaking event. You cannot debate them, you cannot change their minds, because they are arguing from a position of ignorance. Trying to correct them is pointless. I hate, hate, hate this permissive attitude people in here are taking towards fascists. This complacency was the cause of the holocaust and ultimately WW2. Why should we give oxygen to a group that believes others to be sub-human. Nationalism and racism need to be stamped out, because they are of no benefit to anyone living on this earth. Not to say that sucker punching somebody is the answer, mind you. If you believe that nazi's are just little old rascals that should have the same position as other political opinions, you seriously need to educate yourself. This should not be a controversial position to hold.[/QUOTE] Like bdd458 said, there are examples of top tier KKK members who've rescinded on their views and given up their old ways because people actually engaged with them. All you do when you respond to calls of violence and hate with violence and hate is further spread violence and hate, there were notable, great people who got leagues done for their people or country without calling for people to start going to war and crushing the cockroaches, you know. I never would've known this guy existed if it wasnt for some chucklehead clocking him on the evening news. He wasnt attacking anyone, he wasnt hurting anyone physically, he was talking, yes what he was saying you can and should disagree with, but he was standing and talking, and someone else comes out of nowhere and smashes him in the face. Tell me how thats supposed to show how he's in the wrong and not the guy who decided to commit assault? Yeah, hugs and flowers wont work for every situation, im sure Hitler would've totally stopped gassing jews if one of them hugged him, but thats the thing, Hitler isnt around anymore, the SS arent going around kidnapping people of the inferior race anymore. Its just idiots, some who manage to get higher than others, saying stupid shit. Escalating from that is only going to make, and has made the situation worse. Maybe conversation wont work for all of them. It probably wont work for most of them, but if it can change a few minds instead of making them more rocksteady in their idiotic devotions, shouldnt we at least try it? Rome wasnt built in a day.

This thread is scary.

[QUOTE=rndgenerator;51704533]White supremacists pose bigger threat, so punch them in the face. Black supremacists are not a big threat, please don't punch them.[/QUOTE] Yeah Hamaflavian's post reminds me of the excuse normally given for why black people cant be racist, when its an institutional level thing that they're referring to as an excuse for individual level interaction.

[QUOTE=Spacewizard;51704566]This thread is scary.[/QUOTE] Just a bunch of angry posts honestly.