[QUOTE=McGii;36463919]How can you justify saying he is not racist after saying he was suspicious of the black people in his community after a bunch of robberies. Even if it was a black person who did it it's still racist to assume it was a black guy[/QUOTE]
Are you one of those idiots that calls everything racist?
In this day and age, if I'm in a nice neighborhood and I see a guy walking in the middle of the night with a hoodie on WITH the knowledge of there being robberies lately, I'm going to profile the FUCK outta that guy. Shut the hell up with your "OMG IT'S RACIST TO ASSUME DAT".
[QUOTE=McGii;36464351]Thanks for the shitpost and strawman, but good try though![/QUOTE]
You just accused two people, who were providing valid enough points regarding Zimmerman, as racists and you called them dumb fucks because you so strongly believe this is a racially motivated case (Little to no evidence for that, by the way). People who want to make sense of Zimmerman's side and see valid logic in his defense can't get too far without being called out as being racist. Anything anyone says against Martin and you're a racist.
Everything you're spitting out has already been debated to the end of the earth and there has already been a logical defense toward Zimmerman's story that has been debated even further, previously.
You've missed the thread mate and most people aren't going to get sucked back into this shit again because we know you're so entrenched in your view. Enough of your "shitposting" 'You're racist because you stood up for Zimmerman' bullshit.
[QUOTE=McGii;36463919]"Hes not lying he must be innocent"
"says the lies don't matter"
He confronted a teenager walking home with food from the petrol station with a gun after being told to stay the fuck away by police [I]with a gun[/I] and then claims self defense because his head was bashed into the sidewalk despite him not having any sign of injury and not being taken straight to hospital. If a person claims head injury they will be taken straight to the hospital because internal injury isn't always visible externally (duh) and their life could be on the line. If this wasn't a racially motivated crime then Goerge is crazy
He even said to the 911 operator that he wasn't letting them get away this time, there are several reports from his neighbours saying he is over active in his [B]self appointed[/B] role of Neighbourhood Watch, and he was fired from numerous jobs for the same reasons
You are either racist or incredibly fucking dumb[/QUOTE]
He was told not to follow, said okay, and walked to his truck then confronted by Trayvon. Where did you get the idea that he had the intention of using the gun? If he wanted to kill him like that there would be no struggle no fighting. It would've ended quick if Zimmerman wanted to shoot him from the beginning. There's also pictures of his head injury right after the incident, he's even wearing the same clothes and you can see the grass in the background.
[img]http://static.globalgrind.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/article_images_540/images/2012_april/ht_george_zimmerman_head_dm_120419_wmain.jpg[/img]
He declined to be taken to the hospital and just got cleaned up. When he was talking to the operator, he said "These assholes always get away", he was referring the the burglars who have been breaking into houses recently. He never said he wasn't letting him get away this time. He also wasn't self appointed, many neighbors recommended him since there was alot of break-ins, he had gun training and helped out around the neighborhood.
[QUOTE=McGii;36463919]You are stupid as fuck. He lied about his funds so A) Less bail B) He has money to run away
And what seems more likely? Trayvon attacked Zimmerman for no reason or Zimmerman attacked him [I]after being told not too by police, then saying he wasn't letting them get away this time [B]with a motherfucking gun[/B][/I]
And yes, if you attack someone and threaten them, they are perfectly in the right to try and get away, especially when the aggressor has a gun.
It was a racially motivated crime theres no getting away from it. A man with white skin who would never be discriminated against racially because of his appearance (yes I know he's half spanish doesn't change the fact his skin colour is white unless you are trying to justify your racism) went after an innocent black teenager because he had a hoody and food that Zimmerman assumed he stole[/QUOTE]
Okay...? So he wanted less bail and money to run away. Who wouldn't? He was getting death threats and didn't want to pay alot. What's wrong with that?
No reason? To be honest, he was a stupid kid, he could've walked away. Before you assume racism, there are stupid kids in every race, Trayvon did something stupid that cost him his life though. Zimmerman lost his trail, but no he had to come back and kick some random guy's ass who was simply following him. Zimmermann never even took out the gun until the fight, like I said, it would have ended alot sooner if he had that intention.
He was keeping an eye on a suspicious person in the streets. It's as simple as that. When he was talking to the operator he mentioned nothing of his race until the man asked what he is. Zimmerman thought he stole the candy? He never even mentioned that in the phone call. You came up with that yourself actually, assuming that Zimmerman assumed Trayvon stole the candy(which he didn't even see), good job Mr. Anti-Racist.
[QUOTE=thrawn2787;36464423]yeah he totally got away with it. that's why he's going to court :|[/QUOTE]
Because the Florida police were getting so much bad rep and there would have been riots if they didn't
[QUOTE=USAFMike;36464449]Are you one of those idiots that calls everything racist?
In this day and age, if I'm in a nice neighborhood and I see a guy walking in the middle of the night with a hoodie on WITH the knowledge of there being robberies lately, I'm going to profile the FUCK outta that guy. Shut the hell up with your "OMG IT'S RACIST TO ASSUME DAT".[/QUOTE]
Well actually it is racist to assume black people are the ones who did the robberies by definition so pull your privileged little head out of your arse. A hoody is a common clothing item because it combines a jumper with a beanie and non shit ones look pretty good.
[QUOTE=Jim_Riley;36464489]You just accused two people, who were providing valid enough points regarding Zimmerman, as racists and you called them dumb fucks because you so strongly believe this is a racially motivated case (Little to no evidence for that, by the way). People who want to make sense of Zimmerman's side and see valid logic in his defense can't get too far without being called out as being racist. Anything anyone says against Martin and you're a racist.
Everything you're spitting out has already been debated to the end of the earth and there has already been a logical defense toward Zimmerman's story that has been debated even further, previously.
You've missed the thread mate and most people aren't going to get sucked back into this shit again because we know you're so entrenched in your view. Enough of your "shitposting" 'You're racist because you stood up for Zimmerman' bullshit.[/QUOTE]
Because the justification for their arguments is based in racism. There's nothing wrong with seeing logic in his defense if you are using logic. He was fired from multiple jobs because he was overly aggressive and had power issues, he appointed himself as neighbourhood watchman and there are numerous reports from his neighbours saying he is overzealous and has power issues, he got out of his truck with his gun, [I]after[/I] being told to leave zimmerman alone. He said he wasn't letting him get away.
And if I've missed the thread, then why is there this one full of people defending a racist who changes his story regularly and lies to the courts who murdered a black teenager because he assumed it must be him who robbed the areas. If you can't see how assuming a black teenager is a thief isn't racist or discriminatory in any way shape or form then your [B]are[/B] a dumbfuck
Strawmans make an argument not. Shitposting makes an argument not.
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPMF9gfQm9g&feature=player_detailpage[/media]
Are you black, show me where the blood is in this footage. If there was that much blood the black areas of his jacket would be stained and his head would be bandaged. There isn't even blood on his shirt from the broken nose, nor any bandages or anything around his head that would be present if that photo was real. When a nose breaks, it's nearly impossible to get the bleeding to stop, and it's impossible to not make a mess everywhere. Not to mention if he had a gash like that he wouldn't be allowed to just "decline" visiting the hospital, he'd have no choice. The police department would be liable for his death if they didn't. Just being in a fight where you take a few good punches to the head is enough to kill you, let alone supposedly having your head smashed into the concrete like Zimmerman claimed after he was released.
Zimmerman got out of his truck looking for a fight, as evidenced by the fact he still followed Trayvon after being clearly told not to. He didn't return to his truck or any bullshit like that, he was still in his truck when he was ordered to leave the kid alone. He also had 100 pounds on Trayvon. There's a reason in any sort of fighting sport they have weight divisions, because having 100 pounds on someone is a huge advantage. You keep claiming that Trayvon attacked Zimmerman, how is that at all logical. What is your reasoning behind
[quote]Zimmerman lost his trail, but no he had to come back and kick some random guy's ass who was simply following him[/quote]
Zimmerman didn't lose his trail, he confronted him in the middle of a straight road. Lets say Trayvon did get away, what reason would he have to come back alone to fight a guy with 100 pounds on him. And I think you are underestimating Zimmerman here, how did Trayvon have the time to run far enough away that Zimmerman lost him, get far enough away that Zimmerman had time to get back to his truck, and beat him. How is this logical? In the same situation, could you honestly say that just minutes from home you'd do the same thing?
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zj7qEcD8R-8[/url]
Here is the 911 call. He stated that he was on drugs and something is wrong with him, while also stating his was walking home with his hoody over his head (I mean, it was raining). Yes he doesn;t say he's black until the operator asks but it's the first question the operator asks merely 30 seconds into the call. He was just a black teen walking home with his hoody on to try and keep as dry as possible and here's this asshole saying he's suspicious and obviously on drugs. Please.
Note: Zimmerman can see he has stuff in his hands. Imagine you are this boy, walking home, when a man in a truck starts following you. You don't know what the fuck, and you get scared. In this situation, Trayvon ran from the man following him, and did not make any confrontation at all. What makes you think Trayvon would then later return and beat Zimmerman down.
You can hear Zimmerman saying he can't see the kid, and decides that instead of meeting with the police, he asks for them to instead call him when they arrive. Between the end of this call and the police arriving at the scene, you are saying Zimmerman was already out of his truck (he wasn't), he chased Trayon (he did after the call, evidenced by the fact the scuffle happened) lost Trayvon (Which happened during the call), Trayvon came back before he was able to get back into the truck (He didn't get out until later so this couldn't have happened) and preceded to smash his head into the footpath (which couldn't have happened as the police would have taken Zimmerman to the hospital). Please tell me why this boy, who chose to run instead of confronting the man following him, would turn around and come after him after getting away. If Zimmerman was also not interested in fighting this boy, why did he get out of his truck and why did he instead insist the police call him when they got there instead of him waiting at a spot.
[editline]24th June 2012[/editline]
Hit post accidentally, forgot to say that Trayvon had 2 woulds. 1 being a gunshot to the chest from an intermediate range (which is not point blank fyi) meaning that either A) Trayvon hit zimmerman and ran away, Zimmerman followed up by lining up the shot and shooting him which doesnt explain why Zimmerman was out of his truck to start with, or B) After the call, Zimmerman continued after Trayvon, rounding the corner and seeing him running, and shot him.
He also had a small laceration [I]under[/I] the knuckle of his ring finger. I have one too, it's from a wart I ripped out because it was itchy and was driving me insane. When you punch someone your knuckles are injured before the rest of your fingers, and his hands were perfect minus the small cut on his ring finger.
[editline]24th June 2012[/editline]
You should also take into consideration this man. He is a professional UFC fighter
[img]http://www.fightofthenight.com/news/josh-koschecks-swollen-eye-injury-post-ufc-124-picture[/img]
He was punched in the face in the ring, an area which swells easily and quickly and stays swolen for days if punched (and most certainly less than half an hour later, the time which the video I posted was after the shooting) and would have been visible.
Please review this image of the same fight
[img]http://i.imgur.com/Cm0F2l.jpg[/img]
Notice the gloves, designed to protect the hands and stop them from getting fucked up after a fight. These men are trained professionals and still need gloves to protect their hands, and even with all their skill and their protective gear, their hands still break and they still retire due to fucked up hands. In boxing, the gloves are bigger and protect the hands better, same story there. Trayvon had 0 martial art skills, and 0 gloves. If he hit Zimmerman his hands would have been fucked up.
[editline]24th June 2012[/editline]
Ok the first picture doesn't work but it's a picture of the man on the left with the same swollen eye minus the fist to the jaw. He was uninjured before the fight.
[editline]24th June 2012[/editline]
Ok I made a few mistakes, apparently Zimmerman was out of the car. Kristoff from Something wful says it a lot better than me
[quote]Let's lay down some things that certain posters are so keen to ignore:
Zimmerman's mindset
Zimmerman was "prescribed Adderall and Temazepam, medications that can cause side effects such as agitation and mood swings, but in fewer than 10 percent of patients". In other words, he was on a benzo and an amphetamine.
He has a history of violent aggression.
-He literally threw a woman once and was fired from his security gig for it.
-He fought with a plains clothes police officer.
-His ex fiance filed a restraining order against him for pushing her during an argument.
He was suspicious of a random black teen walking through his neighborhood, in his own words, because there was a recent history of break ins with black suspects. This is somewhat understandable at face value, though obvious racial profiling, however such a suspicion would at most warrant a call to police to check the neighborhood.
However, Zimmerman told police that the teen "looks like he is up to no good" or "is on drugs or something" and is "just staring, looking at all the houses". There is no basis to this, other than the teen being black and looking at his surroundings, while waiting under the community clubhouse roof for the rain to die down some.
Zimmerman then goes on to say, "something is wrong with him" and that "he's coming to check me out", when Martin is walking past him on the way to his father's home.
Then, after Martin passes him walking home, Zimmerman says, "These assholes, they always get away", showing explicitly that Zimmerman considers Martin a criminal, despite no proof other than Martin having black skin and walking through a neighborhood. He concludes this is proof of criminal intent and not proof of residency, despite there being no possible way he knows everyone who lives in the the nearly three hundred homes in the neighborhood or what guests they have staying with them.
He then proceeds to chase after the teenager, armed with a weapon, after the teenager runs away from Zimmerman, who has been on the phone and obvious about his act of following Martin. He then disobeys a police order to not pursue, also ignoring all the training as a neighborhood watch member..
Martin's mindset
Martin has no criminal record and has never been arrested as far as I know. At worst, we have a couple school suspensions, with the latest being an empty baggie containing traces of cannabis.
We know the teen was doing absolutely nothing wrong when Zimmerman locked onto him as definite criminal.
Martin walked to the gas station and bought Skittles and a can of Arizona Iced Tea. It was raining to some extent that night. He was waiting under the shelter of the community clubhouse because it was raining, observing his surroundings, when an unknown individual takes notice of him and parks near him. The unknown individual gets on his cell phone and continues holding his attention on Martin. Martin shortly decides to continue walking home, passing the individual who has parked between him and his destination. Martin keeps an eye on the strange person stalking him in the dark. He stops to look towards this person, who is continually staring at him and talking into his cell phone.
This is a new place for Martin, and he would be understandably afraid of this ridiculous situation taking place.
Martin decides to run out of sight of this person and then this crazy person get out of his vehicle and starts running after Martin.
Zimmerman explicitly knew he was not to follow Martin.
-The police dispatcher told him not to follow, to which Zimmerman responded with a dishonest, but obedient sounding "Ok". Zimmerman knew not to follow and acknowledged that he knew not to follow.
-As a neighborhood watch captain, Zimmerman knew that you are not to pursue, engage, or involve yourself in any way with suspicious activity other than to call the police and wait. He also knew you are not to carry your weapon when doing these neighborhood watch actions. How can I positively say Zimmerman wasn't an idiot who was ignorant of these universal neighborhood watch rules? Well, a police officer literally met with Zimmerman to discuss the DOs and DON'Ts as part of community outreach/police liaison or whatever it's called.
Timeline!
At 7:09:52, 0:19 into his call to police, Zimmerman says, Martin "looks like he is up to no good or is on drugs or something" because it is raining and he's walking.
At 7:10:51, 1:18 into his call to police, Zimmerman says, "something is wrong with him", referring to Martin.
At 7:11:11, 1:38 into his call to police, Zimmerman says, "These assholes (Martin), they always get away", referring to Martin as he passes Zimmerman's truck.
At 7:11:41, 2:07 into his call to police, Zimmerman says, "Shit, he's running" and opens his truck door.
At 7:11:49, 2:15 into his call to police, Zimmerman has closed his truck door and begins running after Martin who was "running away". A moment later you hear the infamous "fucking (something)".
At 7:11:58, 2:23 into his call to police, the dispatchers asks, "Are you following him?, to which Zimmerman replies, "Yea". The dispatcher then says in a very obvious commanding voice, "OK, we don't need you to do that", to which Zimmerman replies, "Ok." There is no question of "well he wasn't tolllldddd not to", so shut the fuck up about that.
At 7:12:20, 2:46 into his call to police, Zimmerman is asked what number he is calling from. This is when Zimmerman finally slows his running pursuit. The wind sounds die down, and his voice finally becomes stable.
That is about 30 seconds of running, ~20 seconds of which are after being told not to pursue. At this point, Zimmerman could return to his vehicle with time to spare before the call ends, but he doesn't. He continues searching.
His father claims he said that he went to check the street on the other side of the houses for an address, but this is obvious bullshit because he neither provides an address, nor was he asked for an address. What likely happened is he went directly across the cut through to check if he could see Martin running to the exit of the neighborhood that is located on that road (the exit he told dispatch he thought Martin was running towards), and stopped running after he checked that obvious avenue of escape. At this point, he would have realized Martin must be hiding in the area still, and he wasn't going to let this asshole get away, right? The pursuit must continue. And we still have a minute and a half left of phone conversation to burn up!
At 7:12:57, 3:24 into his call to police (40 seconds after he's stopped running, a minute after being told to not follow), Zimmerman is asked what address he is parked in front of. He answers that he doesn't know, because he is parked in front of the cut through. It is obvious that he is still not even close to the vehicle because he doesn't offer to check the nearest address (the one he ran past to enter the cut through). In fact, he never offers to provide the address nearest his truck at any point during the call, because he is never anywhere near the truck after he ran off in pursuit of Martin.
At 7:13:12, 3:38 into his call to police, Zimmerman is reluctant to give out his address, fearing Martin may be nearby, also suggesting he is far from his truck, where Martin may be near.
At 7:13:17, 3:44 into his call to police, Zimmerman is asked if he wants to meet police near the mailboxes, which are next to the club house, just down the street past his truck. He replies in a defeated tone, "Yea.... that's fine."
At 7:13:22, 3:48 into his call to police, Zimmerman suddenly interrupts the dispatcher speaking to request that officers call him for his location when they arrive. This is telling, because suddenly Zimmerman's voice perks up as he cancels the rendezvous location, despite it being just down the neighborhood street past his truck.
At 7:13:40, 4:07 into his call to police, 1 minute and 40 seconds after being told not to pursue and 1 minute and 20 seconds after Zimmerman stops running, the call ends after Zimmerman cancels the rendezvous at the mailboxes, with Zimmerman still nowhere near his truck and unwilling to meet at the mailboxes.
I think he either wants to continue searching or has possibly spotted Martin again, as I see no other reasonable explanation for him suddenly canceling the rendezvous he just agreed to.
Zimmerman's injuries are very minor.
He supposedly had black eyes, but I don't see them here. They would be accounted for with the solid punch he took straight to the nose, though, if they did exist.
You might be tempted to say the redness on his forehead is a sign of taking punches, but in order to do that, you first need to refer to the autopsy of Martin. If Martin were to be so stupid as to punch Zimmerman repeatedly in his fucking forehead, the hardest part of the skull, where he would do the least amount of damage to Zimmerman and the most amount of damage to his own hands, there would be evidence of it in the paperwork (broken bones or visible bruising/bleeding of the skin on the knuckles). However, the only mark on Martin's hands is a single, tiny abrasion (1/4"x1/2") below the knuckle of his left ring finger which, according to Zimmerman's father's words, was used to cover Zimmerman mouth (IE it was his offhand).
If Zimmerman were being beaten so badly he feared for his life, he would have a little more damage than that and Martin's hands would be a mess.[/quote]
[img]http://i50.tinypic.com/bhklxy.jpg[/img]
[img]http://i45.tinypic.com/67l7ig.jpg[/img]
There are no gashes there, there are two areas that look like tiny abrasions but nothing consistent with having his head smashed into the ground
[quote]But, "you forgot about the back of his head!", you say?
What about it? He said Martin popped him in the nose and dropped him. That accounts for the larger of the two bleeds on his head, possibly both depending on this shape of his head and the surface of the sidewalk. The other bleed would be easily sustained through whatever you imagine, however since it is small and pretty round, I'm going to assume it was a scrape as they wrestled on the ground. Whatever you ascribe to the cause of the second wound, you still only have two wounds, which is inconsistent with having a head bashed repeatedly or being punched repeatedly to the point of justifying lethal force.
When you take away the blood, you have two red areas, which is not consistent with having your "head repeatedly smashed into the sidewalk". You must also consider that if Zimmerman had grass on his jacket and that Martin's body is many feet into the grass, it is extremely unlikely (I'll say impossible) that Zimmerman's head was on or near the concrete when he shot Martin, completely taking away his self defense claim that he feared death or great bodily harm.
Then, there is the obvious lack of concussion, declining of medical attention, perfect composure walking through the police station and exiting the police car unassisted while hand cuffed.
And, what I consider one of the most important signs, the blood never even made it to his collar! His head wound, despite his adrenaline infused blood pumping the fastest it's probably ever pumped, and the fact that head wounds tend to bleed terribly, AND the fact that he has no damn hair, didn't bleed enough that it even made it to the collar of his shirt. If that isn't a red flag to you, I don't know what is. (refer to the leaked to media photo of Zimmerman's head with the blood unwiped.)[/quote]
[quote]Martin's injuries are virtually nonexistent.
There is one single tiny abrasion on his left ring finger, below the knuckle.
This is apparently his off hand, according to Zimmerman's father, who said Martin covered Zimmerman's mouth with the left hand and pummeled him with the right.
Except, there is no marking at all on his right hand to support such a claim, nor is there on the left hand!
The screams for help went completely uninterrupted in the 911 phone calls.
Whether you are screaming while punching or screaming while being punched (or having your head bashed against the ground), you simply cannot maintain a perfectly continuous sound. This strongly suggests that at this point they were wrestling, possibly for the gun.
Location of the body
This is exactly where it was, judging by the crimescene photo.
Use [url]http://i45.tinypic.com/2lnb5h.jpg[/url] if you want to see for yourself. Use the tree, the white gates, and the building structure to compare and pinpoint. You can also see the plastic bag from the gas station on the sidewalk right next to the body, indicating they didn't move from the point at which the fight started. [/quote]
[img]http://i50.tinypic.com/zl3m1w.jpg[/img]
[quote]Why would Martin hit Zimmerman, if not because he had the black rage?
Easy, Zimmerman thought he was Batman. He has a history of violent aggression, even recent history of overzealous neighborhood watching. He has a reputation of "Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hide".
The female friend says Martin asked "Why are you following me" to which Zimmerman replied, "What are you doing around here?". I think it is safe to assume Zimmerman wasn't very cordial with the "asshole", of which "always get away". It is easy to think that Martin scoffs at the accusation implied by this weird creepy stalker and turns to walk away, at which point Zimmerman grabs Martin's arm or shoulder to keep his attention and subsequently gets popped in the nose and falls on his fat ass.
But, we don't even have to do that. Put yourself in Martin's shoes and tell me if this is unlikely. You are a black kid who has been followed through the entire neighborhood by some creepy white skinned dude with a bald head, who has been talking on phone as he observed and stalked you and later chased after you on foot, continuing to search for you for minutes. All in the dark. A dreary rainy night. Zimmerman is already a threat. You are already on edge, with flight or flight response kicking you in the ass.
Stop for a fucking second and put yourself in that situation. Not as the vigilante Batman wanna be faggot stalking a teenager in the dark with a gun, but the freaked out kid who is being followed by a skinhead looking middle aged man for over 6 goddamn minutes.
There are numerous reasons to punch that person in the face, the main one being this psycho is now at arms length from you, demanding why you are in his neck of the woods, and easily considered a legitimate threat long ago.
Even if Martin just straight up punched him in the face with no dialogue, there isn't much wrong with that (especially not as much as racially profiling and chasing a kid in the dark while armed with a gun), as you'd have had a very reasonable and legitimate feeling of threat from someone who has shown no signs of stopping their pursuit of you when you have done literally nothing wrong, while they are being extremely suspicious and boding in their stalker behavior.
And so, this goes back to the middle of this post. The evidence of injuries. They simply do not support any claim of fear of death or great bodily harm (unless you intentionally misrepresent them out of their actual context).
[/quote]
I admit i was wrong about a number of things but I wasn't far off. Being Australian I haven't seen this on the news, only the internet and haven't followed it whereas SA debated over it for quite a while and kept up to date with all the new facts.
I think he'll be found not guilty of manslaughter/murder myself. Country better start preparing for more race riots if it happens, though
He's on charges of second degree murder that won't stick because there is no way to prove it was pre-meditated. They should have gone for manslaughter, which, evidence considering, could have worked.
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_%28United_States_law%29#Degrees_of_murder_in_the_United_States[/url]
"Second degree murder is a murder that is not premeditated or planned in advance."
With reasonable people it could stick but it's not likely they'll even get an unbiased jury
[QUOTE=McGii;36466225][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_%28United_States_law%29#Degrees_of_murder_in_the_United_States"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_(United_States_law)#Degrees_of_murder_in_the_United_States[/URL]
"Second degree murder is a murder that is not premeditated or planned in advance."
With reasonable people it could stick but it's not likely they'll even get an unbiased jury[/QUOTE]
Oh, I got the definition wrong. I just assumed murder was always pre-mededitated. I still think voluntary manslaughter would have been better for the prosecution but now that he has been charged I think all we can hope for is justice.
[editline]24th June 2012[/editline]
Oh shit nevermind, saw this in the article you posted
[QUOTE]Some states, such as Florida, do not separate the two kinds of manslaughter.[/QUOTE]
Makes sense now.
[QUOTE=McGii;36465035]I admit i was wrong about a number of things but I wasn't far off. Being Australian I haven't seen this on the news, only the internet and haven't followed it whereas SA debated over it for quite a while and kept up to date with all the new facts.[/QUOTE]
i don't get a lot of what you quote. the vast majority of it is assumptions about stuff none of us can really know. stuff like "well if he was getting hit then his wounds would be much bigger i know this for a FACT!!".... um.... okay... how? maybe martin was shit at punching or something, i dunno. all i know is that zimmerman has wounds. trying to defunct everything zimmerman says and make him out as a cold blooded murderer just because the size of the wounds doesn't quite correlate with exactly what some random loser on SA thinks should be there doesn't prove anything. and then more assumptions about "flight or fight" shit (in answer to all the shit rhetorical questions in that situation - i'd have just walked away)
i'm not really on any side here other than being totally against media hype. all i'm doing is looking at what little evidence and information i have managed to get in a couple of nights of looking at the case (i'm in uk - it hasn't really been reported on here)
and btw, logically racially profiling someone based on recent statistics in recent situations is just that - logical. if there have been 10 break-ins in the past month and 9 of them were committed by black men then you are obviously going to be more suspicious of black men in the area. it's just logical. please don't take this as me defending the institutional racism in the police but, on a personal and very isolated level, it's a totally understandable conclusion to come to. but yeh i totally agree that zimmerman was way overly-suspicious and caused the confrontation and that was an awful mistake of his to make. the guy clearly has a weird vigilante hero complex that caused this situation
I didn't even look at anything other than the murder thing because I didn't know what the different degrees were but no matter what they charge him with you'll have idiots who are racist (being Florida) or idiots who just blindly support Trayvon without looking at the facts, it's going to be impossibly hard to get an unbiased jury
[editline]24th June 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;36467404]i don't get a lot of what you quote. the vast majority of it is assumptions about stuff none of us can really know. stuff like "well if he was getting hit then his wounds would be much bigger i know this for a FACT!!".... um.... okay... how? maybe martin was shit at punching or something, i dunno. all i know is that zimmerman has wounds. trying to defunct everything zimmerman says and make him out as a cold blooded murderer just because the size of the wounds doesn't quite correlate with exactly what some random loser on SA thinks should be there doesn't prove anything. and then more assumptions about "flight or fight" shit (in answer to all the shit rhetorical questions in that situation - i'd have just walked away)
i'm not really on any side here other than being totally against media hype. all i'm doing is looking at what little evidence and information i have managed to get in a couple of nights of looking at the case (i'm in uk - it hasn't really been reported on here)
and btw, logically racially profiling someone based on recent statistics in recent situations is just that - logical. if there have been 10 break-ins in the past month and 9 of them were committed by black men then you are obviously going to be more suspicious of black men in the area. it's just logical. please don't take this as me defending the institutional racism in the police but, on a personal and very isolated level, it's a totally understandable conclusion to come to. but yeh i totally agree that zimmerman was way overly-suspicious and caused the confrontation and that was an awful mistake of his to make. the guy clearly has a weird vigilante hero complex that caused this situation[/QUOTE]
Fight or Flight is a real thing, it's been well documented to be a medical fact. Even if Treyvon had never punched a thing before he'd still have fucked up hands after repeatedly punching a man in the temple because thanks to Fight or Flight response, he's be putting his full weight behind it, which is a fact. If he sucked at punching he's still at least be bruised. Zimmermans injuries were also inconsistent with his story, the face swells extremely easily and Zimmerman does not even have a black eye. Those shots were taken at the station straight after the event, the swelling would still be present if Zimmermans story was true, because that's the way the body works. Remember that Zimmerman had 100 pounds on Trayvon, he'd have to be pretty roughed up to be taken down like that.
Fight or Flight isn't some shit, it's been proven. That "loser" from SA knows his shit, Zimmermans story does not match up with his story unless you know shit all about biology or are willing to say the entire scientific community is full of shit. [B]It is literally impossible for Zimmerman to have such minor wounds after having his temple repeatedly punched, his nose broken, and head smashed into the sidepath.[/B] Thats not opinion, it's a fact. Look at the video of him in the station, there isn't even any blood on his clothing. If he had shot Trayvon in a struggle over a gun he'd at least have blood on his shirt. This isn't what some SA loser believes, it's a medical fact that the wounds don't match the supposed injury taken.
And no, it's not logical, it's racism. That's like saying 100% of the people who hijacked the 911 planes were muslim therefore its A-OK to be suspicious of every muslim ever
right okay ignoring that flight or fight doesn't biologically ordain you to walk up to someone who has already lost your trail and is going back to his car and hitting him, and ignoring the hyperbole between "black guys robbing houses in the very recent past" and "a select group of men who destroyed some planes more than a decade ago" (i quite clearly worded my post so you would avoid that kind of hyperbole but nevermind), i just have one question (assuming everything the guy on SA who 'knows his shit' said is 100% scientifically correct as you assert): how did zimmerman get the wounds he does have then?
[editline]24th June 2012[/editline]
as an aside, seriously fuck the media and their approach to this case
i was talking to my girlfriend who studies sociology about this case and she said "ooh yeh i know the one. we learnt about it in sociology this year. was this the one where the white guy shot the black kid who was reaching in his pocket and the white guy thought it was a gun but it was actually sweets. starburst."
jesus where do people get info like this from
edit: spoke to my dad about it and he goes "ooohhh i remember. on that housing estate? the kid was walking home from college and someone shot him or something"
I think he is telling the truth because of the 2 witnesses that were involved when it happened. Also I can't believe how much the news lied about this.
[QUOTE=McGii;36467410]And no, it's not logical, it's racism.[/QUOTE]
Good grief, shut the fuck up already.
[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;36467602]right okay ignoring that flight or fight doesn't biologically ordain you to walk up to someone who has already lost your trail and is going back to his car and hitting him, and ignoring the hyperbole between "black guys robbing houses in the very recent past" and "a select group of men who destroyed some planes more than a decade ago" (i quite clearly worded my post so you would avoid that kind of hyperbole but nevermind), i just have one question (assuming everything the guy on SA who 'knows his shit' said is 100% scientifically correct as you assert): how did zimmerman get the wounds he does have then?
[editline]24th June 2012[/editline]
as an aside, seriously fuck the media and their approach to this case
i was talking to my girlfriend who studies sociology about this case and she said "ooh yeh i know the one. we learnt about it in sociology this year. was this the one where the white guy shot the black kid who was reaching in his pocket and the white guy thought it was a gun but it was actually sweets. starburst."
jesus where do people get info like this from[/QUOTE]
There was no hyperbole there, I was applying your logic to another scenario to show that it's stupid.
[quote]right okay ignoring that flight or fight doesn't biologically ordain you to walk up to someone who has already lost your trail and is going back to his car and hitting him,[/quote]
You are almost there with this one. Remember that Zimmerman is a[B][I] proven liar[/I][/B] and [I][B]has power issues[/B][/I]
And yeah your story about that girl is the type of person I was talking about in my post where i said it was impossibly hard to get an unbiased jury. And it's not clear how Zimmerman got his injuries but the only blood present is on the back of his head and the other marks could be from several things. My face used to look like his a few hours ago when I picked a few pimples, but there's noway that man was hit hard enough that he'd be able to be taken down by a teenager 100 pounds lighter than him and then be overpowered. His head was allegedly smacked multiple times into the sidewalk, and he supposedly took hits to the face yet has no bruising no swelling no anything, he wasn't even concussed (as seen when he exits the police car)
to add to my "it's logical. not racism" point:
lets say i'm walking around the connected back-gardens of my small road at night, in the rain, and wearing a dark tracksuit. statistically, and this is a fact, 100% of break-ins on my road have been by young white males in dark tracksuits. but hey, tracksuits are comfortable and waterproof right? so anyways i'm in these gardens. maybe i'm sorting something out in the bins. maybe i'm taking a shortcut home. my black neighbour, knowing the statistics and seeing me acting strangely in bad weather conditions at night, shoots me.
is this racist?
[QUOTE=USAFMike;36467866]Good grief, shut the fuck up already.[/QUOTE]
Racism is racism, go post on Reddit or 4 Chan if you don't like people being called out for it. If this was in Sensationalist Headlines or whatever it's called there'd be more than just me saying it
i can't help but feel that zimmerman is a racist just by the very definition he shot a black person. it's like we're also wilfully ignoring the fact that
a. he's not even white. he's part of a minority that is high up in US crime statistics, just like the person he shot
b. it has been attested to that, when there was a racially-motivated crime in his area, he defended the position of the black person in that situation
[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;36467922]to add to my "it's logical. not racism" point:
lets say i'm walking around the connected back-gardens of my small road at night, in the rain, and wearing a dark tracksuit. statistically, and this is a fact, 100% of break-ins on my road have been by young white males in dark tracksuits. but hey, tracksuits are comfortable and waterproof right? so anyways i'm in these gardens. maybe i'm sorting something out in the bins. maybe i'm taking a shortcut home. my black neighbour, knowing the statistics and seeing me acting strangely in bad weather conditions at night, shoots me.
is this racist?[/QUOTE]
Yes, if he tailed you for no reason other than you were white, assumed you were high on drugs because you are white, and said you were up to no good because you (a white person) looked around scared because you were being followed.
It would be racist, and i'm sure there are racists who aren't white however there hasn't been any time in history where whites have been treated like they have treated other races. It isn't socially acceptable like hating on non whites is, I'm not sure about how bad it is in America but here in Australia where we have a reputation for being easy going ect it's fine to hate on "Them fuckin' abbo cunts' and 'Them fuckin' boat cunts". From what I've heard though it's pretty terrible.
Why are you guys discussing this? The man was proven not guilty in a court, and you're trying to prove that the man killed the black guy, just because?
Right..
[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;36467939]i can't help but feel that zimmerman is a racist just by the very definition he shot a black person. it's like we're also wilfully ignoring the fact that
a. he's not even white. he's part of a minority that is high up in US crime statistics, just like the person he shot
b. it has been attested to that, when there was a racially-motivated crime in his area, he defended the position of the black person in that situation[/QUOTE]
He has white skin, and one of his parents is Caucasian. He is white.
Can you link me to the story behind part B, I haven't seen it
[editline]24th June 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=SatansSin;36467982]Why are you guys discussing this? The man was proven not guilty in a court, and you're trying to prove that the man killed the black guy, just because?
Right..[/QUOTE]
He hasn't been to trial yet, they are still figuring out if he should be allowed bail or not which gets decided on the 29th after he lied about his funds to the courts
[QUOTE=McGii;36467932]Racism is racism, go post on Reddit or 4 Chan if you don't like people being called out for it[/QUOTE]
If I don't like people being called out for it? lol? Who the fuck are you anyway?
Oh no, people side with Zimmerman, they MUST be racist!! The majority of the people that cry "RACIST" are the ones who are actually racist.
Also just because he's found not guilty doesn't mean he's innocent
See: LA riots
[editline]24th June 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=USAFMike;36468032]If I don't like people being called out for it? lol? Who the fuck are you anyway?
Oh no, people side with Zimmerman, they MUST be racist!! The majority of the people that cry "RACIST" are the ones who are actually racist.[/QUOTE]
You know what they call this? Digging yourself a hole
[QUOTE=Kopimi;36461900]911 operators who told him to [B]stop following him[/B]. he didn't.[/QUOTE]
Why the hell do you idiots always have to get this wrong?
There was only 1 operator who told him that he didn't need to follow him.
It was a god damn suggestion, not a direct order that should be obeyed no matter what the circumstances.
and according to zimmerman that's when he went back to his car too when the black guy approached him
Because Zimmerman just walked up to some kid and shot him in broad daylight for no reason. Yeah man that happens all the time.
Ok
[QUOTE=ChestyMcGee;36462292]not quite
there is a 911 call with someone screaming for help. the first witness (who came out and saw martin on zimmerman's back, hitting him) said zimmerman was calling for help. another witness thought it may have been martin calling for help but she didn't see the confrontation and has proved to be somewhat unreliable
martin's father, when first having the call played to him, said it wasn't his son's voice. he later changed his mind about this. zimmerman's father was certain from the outset that it was zimmerman's voice calling out for help
in zimmerman's version of events, before the 911 call was released and before the media frenzy, he says many times that he said "i need help". some of this was directed at the first witness who replied "i'm going to call the cops" (or words to that effect). zimmerman supposedly said "no i need help getting this guy off me" (or words to that effect)
[editline]24th June 2012[/editline]
also can we stop calling martin a "kid"? the biggest problem with this case is the media hype, like the news channels using an old picture of martin so he looks really young, while using a seven year-old picture of zimmerman from when he was bigger looking
calling martin a 'kid' really messes with people's perspective on the case. martin was 17. he's older than like half of this forum who refer to him as a 'kid'[/QUOTE]
This might help your argument. I've had this picture for a while now:
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/4d261.jpg[/IMG]
[QUOTE=McGii;36468042]You know what they call this? Digging yourself a hole[/QUOTE]
You know what I'd call you? An a-hole.
[QUOTE=USAFMike;36469199]You know what I'd call you? An a-hole.[/QUOTE]
Spectacular debating skills. Good job you've totally got him on the ropes now!
Nah, not really. You're awful at arguing with people, resorting to insults when it isn't going your way is a pretty good indicator you have no fucking idea what you are doing.
[QUOTE=jbthekid;36469130]This might help your argument. I've had this picture for a while now:
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/4d261.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]
I'd say that both of those examples are somewhat biased. isn't there a single picture of Trayvon in a nice suit smiling for the camera as well as Zimmerman?
if there genuinely isn't I understand, but it just seems a bit... skewed.
[QUOTE=USAFMike;36464391]THIS.
Just the fact the media said jack shit about the friggen bounty placed on his head....ugh. All that "hate crime" bullshit is so damn annoying. Love how this ridiculously small incident (compared to all of the other brutal murders out there that are never talked about) gets attention, yet when that one black guy murdered those 2 British tourists in Florida this past April (for not giving him money), it didn't get nearly as much press.[/QUOTE]
Are you saying that the OJ Simpson case didn't receive as much press? Even the Wisconsin fair incident? Even the countless documentaries I've watched...
The media reports equally for both "sides". You don't really care about those crimes in TV since you don't bother to notice them, so why notice the news reports involving blacks?
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