[QUOTE=TonyP;36422848]Not by modern standards. They're very simplistic.
Anyways, I'm not discussing this with you people any more since you clearly don't even know what I'm talking about.[/QUOTE]
Also:
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMzpLnQtVuE[/media]
That was rendered within Source Filmmaker, which means it abides the Source engine's "simplistic" limits.
[QUOTE=Maloof?;36422894]On a scale from zero to... more than one, how many sources do you have to back up your 'every wrinkle is modelled' claims?
I'm figuring it's very much at the lower end of the scale.
At best, what would happen is; they'd throw the base, low-poly mesh into a sculpting program, sculpt the detail on and then export the sculpt as a bump/normal map. They would NOT go through and model that stuff in a topographically optimised fashion. That would quadruple the time required to create an individual character mesh and would [B]not[/B] be able to be rendered in real time.
I ain't even modelled for real time media yet son and I understand this[/QUOTE]
So, you didn't understand what I was saying. I see.
[editline]21st June 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Dr. Evilcop;36422903]Also:
That was rendered within Source Filmmaker, which means it abides by the Source engine's "simplistic" limits.[/QUOTE]
Source filmmaker is not the same as the source engine.
[editline]21st June 2012[/editline]
You can't animate geometry that doesn't exist. You can't make an arm bend at a non existant elbow. You can't make a character smile with realistic creasing and shaping of the cheeks nostrils eyes and brow if there are no polygons to do so with.
[QUOTE=TonyP;36422915]
Source filmmaker is not the same as the source engine.[/QUOTE]
[b]Yes it is.[/b]
Source film maker allows you to move models/play animations and events [b]within the Source engine.[/b]
[QUOTE=TonyP;36422915]So, you didn't understand what I was saying. I see.
[editline]21st June 2012[/editline]
Source filmmaker is not the same as the source engine.[/QUOTE]
Maybe instead of telling me how much I don't understand you
you should explain it in a way that I can understand.
Have you ever modelled for a game before?
Is it not capable of lighting and other effects that don't occur in the realtime engine?
[editline]21st June 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Maloof?;36422928]Maybe instead of telling me how much I don't understand you
you should explain it in a way that I can understand.
[/QUOTE]
I think you should be able to understand the following. If you don't then you'll have to learn more about how convincing facial animation is done to do so.
[quote]You can't animate geometry that doesn't exist. You can't make an arm bend at a non existant elbow. You can't make a character smile with realistic creasing and shaping of the cheeks nostrils eyes and brow if there are no polygons to do so with.[/quote]
Examples would be how when you smile, your cheeks bulge out, your skin folds from your nostrils to the corners of your mouth, many peoples chins also get double when they smile largely. You also get a fold under your eyes and on the outer corner of your eyes, and some people get folds in between the brows. Without those you wont get realistic or sincere expressions.
If you haven't got enough polygons then that's when you get those dead and/or simplistic facial animations seen in games like Mass Effect, Half Life 2, Assassins Creed, World of Warcraft, games from Bethesda.
Some of those games may or may not be caused by insufficient polycount, but they're just examples of poor facial animation, where those critical skin folds are static and not animated. (by poor facial animation, I am speaking by today's standards, set by naughtydog, crytek, quantic dream, whoever made L.A. Noire, even the game Heavenly Sword, etc)
[QUOTE=TonyP;36422930]Is it not capable of lighting and other effects that don't occur in the realtime engine?
[editline]21st June 2012[/editline]
I think you should be able to understand the following. If you don't then you'll have to learn more about how convincing facial animation is done to do so.[/QUOTE]
When you UV-map a mesh, you assign which pixels of the map appear on which faces. As faces stretch, squash or rotate in relation to one another, the map stretches, squashes and rotates as well. This gives realistic creasing.
[QUOTE=TonyP;36422930]Is it not capable of lighting and other effects that don't occur in the realtime engine?
[editline]21st June 2012[/editline]
I think you should be able to understand the following. If you don't then you'll have to learn more about how convincing facial animation is done to do so.
Examples would be how when you smile, your cheeks bulge out, your skin folds from your nostrils to the corners of your mouth, many peoples chins also get double when they smile largely. You also get a fold under your eyes and on the outer corner of your eyes, and some people get folds in between the brows. Without those you wont get realistic or sincere expressions.
If you haven't got enough polygons then that's when you get those dead and/or simplistic facial animations seen in games like Mass Effect, Half Life 2, Assassins Creed, World of Warcraft, games from Bethesda.
Some of those games may or may not be caused by insufficient polycount, but they're just examples of poor facial animation, where those critical skin folds are static and not animated. (by poor facial animation, I am speaking by today's standards, set by naughtydog, crytek, quantic dream, whoever made L.A. Noire, even the game Heavenly Sword, etc)[/QUOTE]
[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCKDTA3ghPo[/media]
Do you have a fetish for folded skin or something? Jesus.
[QUOTE=TonyP;36422772]
If he's going to make it by current gen standards there's no reason to use [B][I][U]ps2/xbox standards[/U][/I][/B] [/QUOTE]
[img]http://www.freewebs.com/ldfeatures/H2_wireframe.jpg[/img]
[img]http://s15.postimage.org/4ckkrjyln/update_6_15_2012_3.jpg[/img]
yeah idk
In some cases yes, mainly the very fine wrinkles, but for large creases you need geometry. Especially in young faces where creases only appear when they express. Blended normal maps only work for smaller lines and don't work very convincingly in closeups and, by nature of normal maps, do not work AT ALL for bulges and distortions of the eyelids caused by the eyeball's movements.
Game developers make stuff as cheap as possible. There is always a compromise between looking good and rendering fast. The hard fact is that nobody is modelling individual wrinkles on a characters face and putting this into a game at this point in time because it's too expensive to render, and because it's far too much time and effort to put into something that will be seen, at most, for the 1% of the game that is cutscenes.
Also many cutscenes are (unfortunately) pre-rendered, which means they would have another department entirely dedicated to creating FMVs and the models featured in those FMVs. Models that do not need to be rendered in real time.
[QUOTE=Dr. Evilcop;36423023]
Do you have a fetish for folded skin or something? Jesus.[/QUOTE]
I sincerely hope this video is an example of non animated folding, because there's none in this video. All folds in this video are static. Although Half Life 2 does have some basic fold animating of the nasolabial folds and brows. Still very simplistic compared to current standards.
I just want to mention that the Assassin's Creed characters have PS2-era poly counts (between 5k and 10k). They're like this for a reason: Because of the sheer size of the worlds in Assassin's Creed II forwards, they have to lower the polys on characters and the environment to save space.
If you check the poly count on a character from any modern FPS, it's going to be a lot higher, because there's not a giant world to explore with lots of crap in it, it's just focused on small levels and limited interactions with only specific important elements. There's less stuf to render, therefore the polycount can be much higher, in the 15k range.
The games with the highest polycount budget is usually fighting games-there's not much to render, just the characters and an arena that's just big enough to fight in. Therefore the modelers have a lot more leeway and can make characters with polys a lot closer to the 25k range.
[QUOTE=Maloof?;36423038]Game developers make stuff as cheap as possible. There is always a compromise between looking good and rendering fast. The hard fact is that nobody is modelling individual wrinkles on a characters face and putting this into a game at this point in time because it's too expensive to render, and because it's far too much time and effort to put into something that will be seen, at most, for the 1% of the game that is cutscenes.
Also many cutscenes are (unfortunately) pre-rendered, which means they would have another department entirely dedicated to creating FMVs and the models featured in those FMVs. Models that do not need to be rendered in real time.[/QUOTE]
You and I are clearly not on the same page.
[editline]21st June 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Recurracy;36423025][img]http://www.freewebs.com/ldfeatures/H2_wireframe.jpg[/img]
[img]http://s15.postimage.org/4ckkrjyln/update_6_15_2012_3.jpg[/img]
yeah idk[/QUOTE]
That's a nice job picking and choosing of a poor example. However it has no validity in reality. Check out Dead or Alive games on the original Xbox as an example that comes to mind.
[QUOTE=TonyP;36423035]In some cases yes, mainly the very fine wrinkles, but for large creases you need geometry. Especially in young faces where creases only appear when they express. Blended normal maps only work for smaller lines and don't work very convincingly in closeups and, by nature of normal maps, do not work AT ALL for bulges and distortions of the eyelids caused by the eyeball's movements.[/QUOTE]
Still waiting on evidence to back all this up
Also nobody is going into enough detail on a video game model to actually render the less-than-1mm-magnitude distortions created in a characters EYELID when they move their eyeball. 99% of CGI films don't do this.
[QUOTE=TonyP;36423049]I sincerely hope this video is an example of non animated folding, because there's none in this video. All folds in this video are static. Although Half Life 2 does have some basic fold animating of the nasolabial folds and brows. Still very simplistic compared to current standards.[/QUOTE]
My point was even without that, it looks decent. No duh it's simplistic compared to today, it's from 2004.
[QUOTE=TonyP;36423053]You and I are clearly not on the same page.
[editline]21st June 2012[/editline]
That's a nice job picking and choosing of a poor example. However it has no validity in reality. Check out Dead or Alive games on the original Xbox as an example that comes to mind.[/QUOTE]
I'm responding to what you're saying
If you think we're not on the same page maybe you should explain yourself better
[QUOTE=TonyP;36423035]In some cases yes, mainly the very fine wrinkles, but for large creases you need geometry. Especially in young faces where creases only appear when they express. Blended normal maps only work for smaller lines and don't work very convincingly in closeups and, by nature of normal maps, do not work AT ALL for bulges and distortions of the eyelids caused by the eyeball's movements.[/QUOTE]
you're really thinking cgi movies here but we're talking about GAMES
god
damn
GAMES
there's a major difference between the two, and I'd rather not have my newest Nvidia GPU with at least 16 cores @ 35 MHz and a 16 GB cache, fry when a guy in Crysis 2 is talking. Thank you very much.
[QUOTE=TonyP;36423053]
That's a nice job picking and choosing of a poor example. However it has no validity in reality. Check out Dead or Alive games on the original Xbox as an example that comes to mind.[/QUOTE]
of course fighting games will have more detailed models. there's fucking nothing going on around them apart from a tiny, tiny level.
I suggest you look at this
[url]http://www.gameartisans.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23520[/url]
[editline]21st June 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Maloof?;36423056]Still waiting on evidence to back all this up
Also nobody is going into enough detail on a video game model to actually render the less-than-1mm-magnitude distortions created in a characters EYELID when they move their eyeball. 99% of CGI films don't do this.[/QUOTE]
I can name several games which [I]do[/I].
[editline]21st June 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Rusty100;36423070]of course fighting games will have more detailed models. there's fucking nothing going on around them apart from a tiny, tiny level.[/QUOTE]
Regardless, it wasn't only fighting games that featured characters with polygon counts at or near 15k on the PS2. Using 15k characters these days is pointless in anything where you can see the character close up.
[QUOTE=TonyP;36423095]I suggest you look at this
[url]http://www.gameartisans.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23520[/url]
[editline]21st June 2012[/editline]
I can name several games which [I]do[/I].[/QUOTE]
Okay I see it, what's your point? And go ahead and name them.
[QUOTE=TonyP;36423095]I suggest you look at this
[url]http://www.gameartisans.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23520[/url]
[editline]21st June 2012[/editline]
I can name several games which [I]do[/I].
[editline]21st June 2012[/editline]
Regardless, it wasn't only fighting games that featured 15k polygon characters on PS2/Gamecube/Xbox games.[/QUOTE]
oh look! all fighting games or racing games at the top of the list
if you actually had the capacity to do some critical thinking it's because those games require so little other assets and map space that they can afford to focus on better models.
Dear Rusty, the list isn't organized in order of polycount. I suggest you read more than the first 4 games before responding.
[editline]21st June 2012[/editline]
[QUOTE=Dr. Evilcop;36423119]Okay I see it, what's your point? And go ahead and name them.[/QUOTE]
Uncharted, Heavy Rain, Beyond: Two Souls, L.A. Noire, Heavenly Sword, and others all have complex and detailed facial animation.
dear TonyP,
stop
[QUOTE=TonyP;36423142]Dear Rusty, the list isn't organized in order of polycount. I suggest you read more than the first 4 games before responding.
[editline]21st June 2012[/editline]
Uncharted, Heavy Rain, Beyond: Two Souls, L.A. Noire, Heavenly Sword, and others all have complex and detailed facial animation.[/QUOTE]
And who would of guessed, most use pre-rendered cut scenes! You've got no clue what you're talking about.
[QUOTE=TonyP;36423142][B]Uncharted, Heavy Rain, Beyond: Two Souls, L.A. Noire[/B], Heavenly Sword, and others all have complex and detailed facial animation.[/QUOTE]
From what I've seen of those games, that's a huge selling point for them. It's not a run of the mill thing.
let's not forget that la noire is basically just footage of people's faces blended over what look like pretty low poly faces
[QUOTE=Dr. Evilcop;36423165]And who would of guessed, they use pre-rendered cut scenes! You've got no clue what you're talking about.[/QUOTE]
I am going to have to say the same to you, because Uncharted games use the same assets in game as in the cutscenes (which are rendered in engine only to use the videos to mask load times. Heavy Rain and Beyond do not have pre-rendered cutscenes. I don't know about L.A. Noire. heavenly Sword's cutscenes are also rendered real-time.
This argument would probably have gone better and been over with quicker if people weren't calling one another dumb in every post.
[QUOTE=ILY;36423182]From what I've seen of those games, that's a huge selling point for them. It's not a run of the mill thing.[/QUOTE]
Yes, those games have developers who go to the extra mile to have wonderfully detailed characters. So why cop out and not take advantage of what is capable by computers these days? The weak (by modern standards) PS3 and Xbox can have the fabulously detailed and complex sincere facial animation, and there's many PC games which do too, so there's no reason to not do it other than lack of skill or for some sort of retro art style or mobile gaming developement (PS Vita not included). Or outdated game rendering engines.
I don't recall any dumb-calling
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