Civilization before Humanity - Could it have existed?
68 replies, posted
[QUOTE=dije;35256729]As I said, just because any life form we know today can't survive down there under pressure, some sort of creature could be able to.
More likely would be that they lived in colonies, like termites, and our current means of archaeology doesn't cover that.[/QUOTE]
This is so much into baseless speculation territory that we might even hypothesize that they look like small pink bears and it would be just as plausible.
[QUOTE=Chrille;35257102]This is so much into baseless speculation territory that we might even hypothesize that they look like small pink bears and it would be just as plausible.[/QUOTE]
Oh shit, you're on to us.
It's possible but there's a lack of evidence that it did exist before humanity.
On Earth? unless the previous civilization was advanced enough (which I doubt it was), there isnt any evidence that says it was there.
On mars though? Its obvious from all the discoveries we made that mars was once a habitable planet and did support life.
I always see new things being found in archaeological digs that always makes past civilizations to be smarter and more advanced than what modern humans believe they were. Its also weird to see things built back than that in modern times would be incredibly difficult, and to think they did everything with log wheels, ropes, and man power. I guess what I am more thinking about is that either their could have been a intelligent species on earth before humans and they helped early man out, and took all traces of their civilization and hid it and left for another planet to maybe observe humans evolve, or they found a better solar system. Or ancient aliens, I am not gonna lie, its always pretty interesting to think that aliens helped us out long ago, and it really does seem that way. That's my two cents.
Earth did have civilization before Humans. They're called Bees & ants bro. They were building cities and a working system & society long before we came along.
Neanderthals are technically this. While not before modern humans, they still existed as a separate civilization and were different from us to the extent of being their own species. Besides them, it's just not scientifically possible. If there was an intelligent civilization before us the fossil record would have left something.
Plus, there wasn't a whole lot of time for these beings to develop, and little reason for it. Humans were unremarkable ape-creatures before we became intelligent, and thus were rather weak in the food chain. But we developed complex brains not out of just because, but because it was the one necessity that would put us above all the other creatures in the food chain. That necessity wasn't really there in the time of the dinosaurs, and even if it was lie-forms weren't complex enough to meet it's requirements.
In short, it just isn't possible. There wasn't enough time in between the first Prokaryotic cell developing and us coming into existence for another race of intelligent beings to evolve.
We would have found evidence of such a civilization. Complex life forms have only existed on Earth for about 100 million years. Before that the Earth was nothing but a molten lava ball.
[QUOTE=King Tiger;35325563]We would have found evidence of such a civilization. Complex life forms have only existed on Earth for about 100 million years. Before that the Earth was nothing but a molten lava ball.[/QUOTE]
The first Dinosaurs appeared 250 million years ago. I thought those reptiles would have been complex life forms.
The lava also cooled down very early in Earths life.
[QUOTE=BananaFoam;35325376]Neanderthals are technically this. While not before modern humans, they still existed as a separate civilization and were different from us to the extent of being their own species. Besides them, it's just not scientifically possible. If there was an intelligent civilization before us the fossil record would have left something.
Plus, there wasn't a whole lot of time for these beings to develop, and little reason for it. Humans were unremarkable ape-creatures before we became intelligent, and thus were rather weak in the food chain. But we developed complex brains not out of just because, but because it was the one necessity that would put us above all the other creatures in the food chain. That necessity wasn't really there in the time of the dinosaurs, and even if it was lie-forms weren't complex enough to meet it's requirements.
In short, it just isn't possible. There wasn't enough time in between the first Prokaryotic cell developing and us coming into existence for another race of intelligent beings to evolve.[/QUOTE]
besides The Neanderthals had no civilization only small family tribes of 4 to 20 Neanderthals
We find dinosaur fossils over 400 million years old, so why haven't we found something similar of a precursor civilisation?
ITT People call others out on pulling facts out of their asses to support their view while pulling facts out of their own asses to support their own view
Back on topic, yeah, no
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I personally do not believe in this theory but I do believe in the similar ancient aliens theory. And I also love assassins creed so thats also why I find this theory interesting!
No it's not possible. At least when talking about a civilisation on a technological state similar to ours, or even to our civilisation some 500 hundred years ago.
The massive changes to geological data from cities, rubbish heaps and who knows what else just wouldn't go away. You'd find horribly weird data in ten million years where most major cities are these days. Geological data that just wouldn't make any sense.
On top of that, they could easily employ materials which are not biodegradable and those would still be around most likely. Given that they were underground. Glass also tends to keep fairly well.
Obviously - there could have been a group of sentient reptiles with some very primitive tribal society. Because the remains of those would be very impossible to find.
But any civilisation on our scale - nope.
[QUOTE=DaysBefore;35246946]Yeah we lost a lot of technology when the Empire fell. And empire's collapse all the time. That explains all those gaps in our history, where we go in dumb as fuck and end up with some relatively advanced technology, with a blank space in the middle.[/QUOTE]
Actually rome > mediaval Europe lost very little technology. Some minor things certainly, but by and large the knowledge base remained untouched. On top of that Rome didn't fall in some brutal sacking like people often like to imagine, but mostly due to a lack of a strong internal force holding it together.
On top of that, after barbarian kings moved in, they actually left most romans fairly alone. Even letting them use their own legal system. - Leges romanae barbarorum
The thing that changed mostly was society. You essentially had asynchronous advancement. Technology went ahead pretty strongly (agriculture, masonry etc etc etc) were improved all the time, while a number of other technologies tended to stagnate. Also society went in a path we consider somewhat less progressive so we don't see their actual advancement.
Basically the reason technology seemed to be so well hidden in a sense was due to the guild system which was very protective.
But take it this way - Rome fell 495AD and we had mass employed powder firearms as early as the 1450s. That shows such a massive change in ironworking that it's not even funny.
That brnigs to another point - the romans might have had concrete, but in a way it was useless to them. Because the important part about concrete is the combination of concrete and iron.
No. If there was there would be evidence, such as fossils or tools or something.
So without hard evidence, I won't believe that there was civilization before Mankind.
People are so fast to dismiss these ideas and not give any type of consideration at all. I mean there probably weren't reptilian lizard men running the world thousands of years ago with skyscrapers and automobiles, but the "Ancient Astronaut" theory does have some credability. I'm not saying I uphold it in any way, but if you've actually researched the topic you'd notice that things do fall into place and start to make some sense. There's fragments of fragments of little clues that our ancestors preserved for us. I could go into extreme detail to try to prove this. They did have some sort of knowledge that we as a race have forgotten.
We keep discovering archeological sites that date farther back than 10-12 thousand years old, which as stated, is what we assume to be the length of civilization here on earth. Most of these are actually underwater. Thousands and thousands of years ago the land was shaped quite a bit differently than it is today. Who knows what could have submerged.
I understand why people wouldn't be in favor of the theory without evidence, but there's no need to be close-minded about it.
[QUOTE=zacht_180;35460490]We keep discovering archeological sites that date farther back than 10-12 thousand years old, which as stated, is what we assume to be the length of civilization here on earth. Most of these are actually underwater. Thousands and thousands of years ago the land was shaped quite a bit differently than it is today. Who knows what could have submerged.[/QUOTE]
How complex are these said places? Humans started their technological/cultural/etc revolution about 40,000 years ago. We have evidence of settlements of several hundred persons from then and onwards. We have evidence of art or sculptures. Iron objects have been discovered at the turn of the holocene. Semi-farming and farming communities are plentiful from that time too. We also have evidence of record taking and proto-writing from before Egypt existed.
Human civilisation developed slowly and painfully over the course of 40,000 years. It got a big boost at the start of the holocene, and began to really develop at the start of the Homogenocene into the big industrial and powerful societies we know of today.
At best, primitive tribes of some kind may have been around, but no evidence exists to support that they developed into anything that is present in the Homogenocene, or even holocene.
[QUOTE=zacht_180;35460490]People are so fast to dismiss these ideas and not give any type of consideration at all. I mean there probably weren't reptilian lizard men running the world thousands of years ago with skyscrapers and automobiles, but the "Ancient Astronaut" theory does have some credability. I'm not saying I uphold it in any way, but if you've actually researched the topic you'd notice that things do fall into place and start to make some sense. There's fragments of fragments of little clues that our ancestors preserved for us. I could go into extreme detail to try to prove this. They did have some sort of knowledge that we as a race have forgotten.
We keep discovering archeological sites that date farther back than 10-12 thousand years old, which as stated, is what we assume to be the length of civilization here on earth. Most of these are actually underwater. Thousands and thousands of years ago the land was shaped quite a bit differently than it is today. Who knows what could have submerged.
I understand why people wouldn't be in favor of the theory without evidence, but there's no need to be close-minded about it.[/QUOTE]
It seems like they've reached a conclusion and are trying to find things that support it, rather than the other way around.
Protheans you idoits there real!!!!!!!
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:rock:
I don't think there was any sophisticated civilization on this planet before humans. We would have probably found out something about it by now.
And even if there was another civilization before Humanity on our planet, it is no longer.
As for whether a civilization could have existed BEFORE our entire planet, then yes that is very much likely.
It is also likely that there will be more civilizations to come and go.
[QUOTE=Bat-shit;42065248]I don't think there was any sophisticated civilization on this planet before humans. We would have probably found out something about it by now.
And even if there was another civilization before Humanity on our planet, it is no longer.
As for whether a civilization could have existed BEFORE our entire planet, then yes that is very much likely.
It is also likely that there will be more civilizations to come and go.[/QUOTE]
I'm not disagreeing that a civilization before ours on Earth would be improbable at best, but we don't really have a precedent for how long it takes a civilization to completely disappear. Everything we know about our own civilization comes from traces left behind, from cave paintings to cities. There [i]could[/i] have been something so far in the past that no evidence remains, but there's no telling how long ago that would've been if that's the case. And if that is the case, we'll still probably never know. I guess my view on the matter is, there's really no way for us to tell but the evidence we [i]do[/i] have points to us being the first civilization on the planet.
Anyone read the Science of Discworld? It features a primitive crab civilisation that arises on Earth before humans, and it's wiped out by a meteorite. IIRC the writers (one of them is a biologist, so he probably knows what he's talking about) said that, while the civilisation was fictional, there's nothing stopping a similar civilisation having existed and leaving no traces behind.
So while there's no real reason to assume there was a civilisation that arose on Earth before humans, it's not impossible either.
Did you lot even notice the year bump?
Regardless, the only possibility of there being a previous civilisation without trace is for there to have been a world ending event that buried everything deep within the crust. Like, the deepest we've ever been in the crust is 12km on average, it's not impossible that there's stuff buried deeper but given the heat and pressure it's unlikely it'll be in any salvageable state.
[QUOTE=jamesbdunn;42052213]:rock:
Absolutely there could have been civilizations before humans. Ants for example. But I'm sure you meant that were capable of developing mathematics, evolve complex languages, and in other ways build their brains.
If a species was an invertebrate like an octopus (surprisingly intelligent), then there would be little opportunity to leave remnants that would survive millions of years. Potentially a species whose needs are met, have little need to evolve beyond protecting themselves. Being intelligent enough to detect, understand, and avoid predators does not seem to require the building of tools.
I can also see devolving sentient life. Given a species that is thrust into fighting for survival for thousands of years (asteroid impact and effects upon the oceans) and having its social system destroyed by cataclysm, I would imagine the brain building social artifacts could be lost and a species revert back to a social system of reaction. Their continued existence covering up any artifacts indicating higher intelligence.
Using octopus as an example, if they evolved to the point of being highly social and intelligent, would they need to build structures?
Or as an evolved civilization with sufficient food sources to allow for congregation, would there be any remnants to find?[/QUOTE]
While I agree with some of your points, I think that a collapse of civilization would cause further incentive for intelligence, rather than less.
My reasoning for this is that without law and order, the individuals with more brainpower would be better able to balance limited resources, anticipate the enemy (human or otherwise), find mates, and improvise tools.
As opposed to "go to work, go home, go shopping, pick up chicks if you look good enough". Not saying intelligence isn't helpful in our society, just that it doesn't guarantee children.
No. Look at the amount of shit we've left behind. Assuming it reached a state as advanced as ours, (and with using your 4.5 billion years as an example, it probably would have), the garbage they would have created would have definitely lasted till now, as well as space junk, etc. Plastic will last hundreds of years, and as far as we know, Styrofoam will [I]never[/I] decompose. We find dinosaur bones hundreds millions of years old, we'd be able to find some remnant of a vast civilization.
Edit: Well, I didn't really think of more primitive civilizations... I suppose, with a Darwinian point of view, yes it would be possible. But not if the civilization reached a stage such as ours.
If the civilization had invented styrofoam or other plastics, we should have picked up the chemical traces of it by now. Otherwise, as has been said earlier, a more primitive civilization could go unnoticed, especially if it was an oceanic species, seeing that oceanic crust recycles itself much more quickly than continental crust.
ya we probably would have seen evidence of any evolving civilization by now. that doesn't discredit some aliens setting down a small settlement at any point in the last billion years, but as for a civilization, that would leave lasting marks on the earth that we would have found by now. hell today we can't dig up caves in germany without finding old ruins, or build anything in rome without hitting anything ancient. as much as i'd love to think we weren't the only ones who have had to take care of this planet, the reality is, we are.
[QUOTE=_Kent_;42070688]While I agree with some of your points, I think that a collapse of civilization would cause further incentive for intelligence, rather than less.
My reasoning for this is that without law and order, the individuals with more brainpower would be better able to balance limited resources, anticipate the enemy (human or otherwise), find mates, and improvise tools.[/QUOTE]
Animals do all these things based upon evolutionary instinct already (with the exception of tools of course). Such basic needs do not require advanced or even basic intelligence.
[QUOTE=Derubermensch;42076008]Animals do all these things based upon evolutionary instinct already (with the exception of tools of course). Such basic needs do not require advanced or even basic intelligence.[/QUOTE]
It depends on what else the animal has. We don't have sharp teeth or claws, we are slow as fuck, and we have poor hearing and smell. We could probably survive without intelligence in extremely small numbers in a specific niche, but because of our intelligence there are now almost 8 billion of us.
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