[QUOTE=Corndog Ninja;48098229]You do [I]move[/I] very fast (Doomguy runs at about 57 mph) but the gameplay is more thoughtful - exploration is necessary to find keycards, backtracking is often necessary, and finding hidden areas is rewarded with bonus items.[/QUOTE]
Hopefully, iD will remember that half the reason Doom was so great was the maps, and won't just make the game linear corridors full of monsters.
[QUOTE=BenJammin';48097810]What people don't realize about doom is that it's not just another FPS game
there's something pure and extremely intelligent about it's game design. There's a lot more depth to the game mechanics than what appears immediately. Some maps I play almost feel like puzzles of managing ammo and health while using your skill in dodging and aiming as well as fast paced intuition.
This is why I think like things like brutal doom and Doom 4 miss the point completely, it's not just all about violence and shooting things. There's stuff in between the lines so to speak that you may not be able to realize right away but you automatically know it's a game that stands above most.[/QUOTE]
And -THIS- is what Doom is. It's not about hordes of demons getting ripped apart (and if you ever thought so you're exactly the kind of dead weight that's been growing on the fanbase for the past couple years thanks to Brutal Doom and the likes "XD RIP AND TEAR"), it's a game similar to say, Super Meat Boy in concept.
There's a whole lot of trial and error, weighing out what tools will help you the most in the area, and memorizing pretty much exactly to the second where and when enemies appear, move around, where loot is, etc.
It's a very very nuanced type of game, and that's what Doom 4 is lacking. It just looks like boring uninspired monster designs popping up, going 'ooga booga im gonna shoot you with my fireballs' and being immediately destroyed in a drab shower of pure fanservice, towards the bad part of the fanbase.
Like don't get me wrong, I love me some Doom, but so far Doom 4 is looking like less of a Doom game than 3, in my opinion. Not because of deliberate design choices, 3 did that by totally doing a genre shift, but because Doom 4 feels like the devs just honestly lost the feel for what Doom's all about.
Is DOOM the most misunderstood game of all time?
[QUOTE=kweh;48098066]
Remember how some dev wanted to do cross platform multiplayer on some FPS, ran the experiment, and then called it all off when he saw that gamepad players (console) got decimated by keyboard and mouse PC players?
Theres also the thing with aim assist in consoles, to help out.
Still, I have no idea how can anyone play an FPS game like BF3 on a console. It's hard as fuck.[/QUOTE]
If I remember right, Shadowrun's primary failure was due to a mix of a lack of brand recognition, and whoever was actually really into Shadowrun and picked it up realized that it was Shadowrun in name only. All in all it was a shockingly decent shooter, I actually much preferred it on the 360.
[QUOTE=tempunary;48098355]Is DOOM the most misunderstood game of all time?[/QUOTE]
Sometimes it feels like it.
I think a lot of people saw Brutal Doom, played it on their source ports with modern control setups and mouselook, and simply forgot how Doom was back when it was new.
My first exposure to this kind of game was way back in my babby days, when me and my grampa would boot up Doom and Wolf3D on our old DOS rig and work our way through the game, no source ports or none of that. Playing the game totally dry is definitely the right way to do it, it gives you such an appreciation for the design of the game, as you're playing it exactly how it was meant to be.
All this nonsense with mouseaiming and more modern control schemes and lighting and stuff are nice, sure, but that's just not the right way to play if you really want to appreciate the game, and I feel bad that so many people just play on GZdoom or something and say "yeah no i know how doom is"
[QUOTE=Mister_Jack;48098149]Honestly no one will ever know how sad I am that the F.E.A.R. formula was never moved forward. There really is no other game like it in how interactive the environments are and how the AI uses it. It does what it does with so much finesse and going back for a playthrough right now is the best time ever if you want to see how much the market truly has stagnated. That game came out a whole decade ago. It still looks good and it's so much fun to play. I'm tempted to say no FPS has bested its interpretation of shooting since, but there are games like Battlefield, Red Orchestra 2, S.T.A.L.K.E.R. and ARMA that have great shooting mechanics. Still it took years and F.E.A.R.'s unique style is hard to touch.
Another opinion of mine, Killing Floor 2 looks/feels more Doom than this new Doom.[/QUOTE]
Hence why I talked about KF2 a while back. They do the whole "weapon VS enemy" relation really well
The FEAR formula only got worser with each game, precisely because of what you mentioned before, which I had never noticed before until some other FPer pointed out in that FEAR review that was posted on the video section a while back: consoles
The games released after the first game are WAY easier. FEAR 2 for example freaking highlights enemies. And thats just the start. Enemies are also much easier to kill, having sort of bad AI, picking bad corners to place themselves at, and even having PATHETIC tactics. About a month ago, I took a ride through a bit of it after playing FEAR's story like 3 times in a row(its actually a good warmup if you play without slowmo, if you intend to play someting like csgo, it makes you focused, fast, and thinking about the places you should be pointing at)
Anyway, there was this part where you have to rotate a valve to stop the gas flowing and igniting the way forward up a ladder. It was this kind of warehouse part. I went deeper into the warehouse, the enemies came through the way I had to go, and I shit you not, all I had to do was wait around a corner, for them to get in my sights, and headshot each and every single one of them.
Ended up making an actual pile of 6 or 7 dead bodies, or how many there were. All dead, on top of each other, in the exact same position.
Granted, it isn't terrible, but it isn't nearly as good as the first, which actually, also has its flaws. For example, the reason why the levels are usually so simple and lackluster of detail, is so that the AI had less room for failure in decision making. Probably the only flaw it has...
FEAR 3 was just awful. End of discussion
(but I'll tell you why. Constant popups of how you killed X number of enemies for an achievement, gunplay and gameplay altogether plays like shit imo, story is a huge mess, and THEY FUCKING DID A FAVELA LEVEL BECAUSE "HEY COD IS FAMOUS")
I'd almost prefer they'd stuck with EP and PM, and I actually liked FEAR 2 quite a lot, and never fully played the EP expansion due to how scary it is. Fuck that hospital. Perseus Mandate is kind of...bad
In short: most games try to do something about it, but they all fall short of it, and either give bullet sponge enemies or make the AI use cover 9 out of 10 times and call it "SUPER ADVANCED AI", and this isn't mentioning the average cod/BF/whatever games which don't really have an AI.
I think the best we can hope for with Doom 4 is that it's a good game in it's own right, even if it isn't "Doom".
[QUOTE=Starlight 456;48098368]Sometimes it feels like it.
I think a lot of people saw Brutal Doom, played it on their source ports with modern control setups and mouselook, and simply forgot how Doom was back when it was new.[/QUOTE]
Hm... Disregarding the pitch black dark and "flashlight in, pistol out, and vice versa x2 after demon death", how close to classic old school Doom is Doom 3?
[editline]2nd July 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Starlight 456;48098442]I think the best we can hope for with Doom 4 is that it's a good game in it's own right, even if it isn't "Doom".[/QUOTE]
I will certainly enjoy it.
But then again... I enjoyed RAGE...
[QUOTE=Starlight 456;48098368]Sometimes it feels like it.
I think a lot of people saw Brutal Doom, played it on their source ports with modern control setups and mouselook, and simply forgot how Doom was back when it was new.[/QUOTE]
Doom was originally a lot slower paced than most people remember now because back when it was released most people didn't play with a mouse at all. However, the beauty of Doom comes from the fact that it's a game that can be played very slowly and carefully but once you start getting good you can dash through the levels at insane speeds and it becomes a totally different game.
However, the original slow and steady approach to the game was not caused by design, but was an unintentional effect of people not playing with a mouse and therefore increasing the difficulty and decreasing its speed. So designing a game to be slow from the get go isn't going to make it reminiscent of the very early days of the licence, it's just going to make it sluggish and boring.
Moreover, ever since its original release the licence and people's first experience, it [I]has[/I] evolved and it's important to follow that evolution and adapt to it. Brutal Doom is an aberration that should never be considered an actual solution to moving the series forward, but trying to go backward and slow the game down clearly doesn't work.
I take it that I was the only one that actually loved Doom 3's gameplay. This gameplay feels too much like the classical quake games for my taste.
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;48098386]My first exposure to this kind of game was way back in my babby days, when me and my grampa would boot up Doom and Wolf3D on our old DOS rig and work our way through the game, no source ports or none of that. Playing the game totally dry is definitely the right way to do it, it gives you such an appreciation for the design of the game, as you're playing it exactly how it was meant to be.
All this nonsense with mouseaiming and more modern control schemes and lighting and stuff are nice, sure, but that's just not the right way to play if you really want to appreciate the game, and I feel bad that so many people just play on GZdoom or something and say "yeah no i know how doom is"[/QUOTE]
Your grandpa played Doom and Wolfenstein? That's pretty badass.
Also, I played Doom the original way back in the day (by which I mean mid-2000s), along with Heretic and Hexen back in the later 2000s, but I felt more in control when I had proper smooth mouselook playing Strife: Veteran's Edition and it's helping me enjoy Heretic even more.
I can understand the notion of "playing it how it was intended" thing you've got going, but I can appreciate old-school sprite-based FPS just fine without the awkward steering of the original versions. Things like modern mouseaim and whatnot don't belittle the oldschool quality of Doom, they add new-school (and by newschool I mean Quake 1) features that probably weren't fully polished around the time the games were developed.
[QUOTE=MILKE;48098493]I take it that I was the only one that actually loved Doom 3's gameplay. This gameplay feels too much like the classical quake games for my taste.[/QUOTE]
Doom 3 was a solid idea with terrible execution. Back when it was released the novelty made it interesting for at least one playthrough of the game but it has aged incredibly poorly and is almost unplayable by today's standards.
Oh absolutely, that's exactly why I love Doom 3 so much. Sure it's a departure from the original feel of the series, but it was well done with very clear intents in mind. Even if we dont get another game like it, it was still a great ride and I'm glad they tried that avenue. Doom 4 just feels unguided and uninspired so far. Now perhaps that could be blamed on the fact it's a demo and they dont want to spoil anything too big, but even just judging on the world and enemy design, it feels like the leap that Halo did over to 4 artistically. Sure, it's got those classic Doom kind of cues, and it clearly took a lot from Doom 3 too which is nice, but it feels so watered down and tasteless. The monsters all look the same to me, the smaller tier units I can't distinguish at all once it speeds up a bit. It
[editline]1st July 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=ironman17;48098496]Your grandpa played Doom and Wolfenstein? That's pretty badass.
Also, I played Doom the original way back in the day (by which I mean mid-2000s), along with Heretic and Hexen back in the later 2000s, but I felt more in control when I had proper smooth mouselook playing Strife: Veteran's Edition and it's helping me enjoy Heretic even more.
I can understand the notion of "playing it how it was intended" thing you've got going, but I can appreciate old-school sprite-based FPS just fine without the awkward steering of the original versions. Things like modern mouseaim and whatnot don't belittle the oldschool quality of Doom, they add new-school (and by newschool I mean Quake 1) features that probably weren't fully polished around the time the games were developed.[/QUOTE]
Yeah dude, he was my intro to PC gaming really. Between old school FPS's and wasting hours playing Kings Quest and Myst (we'd use guides sometimes but don't tell!!!), I got exposed in the same way that my parents generation really got exposed, so it's kind of nice to be able to have a sense of nostalgia for Doom and Duke Nukem and shit because I was actually playing it all legit when i was little.
[editline]1st July 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;48098508]Doom 3 was a solid idea with terrible execution. Back when it was released the novelty made it interesting for at least one playthrough of the game but it has aged incredibly poorly and is almost unplayable by today's standards.[/QUOTE]
I just did a playthrough of Doom 3 around Halloween of last year and it still holds up damn well, still haven't got to try RoE though
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;48098508]Doom 3 was a solid idea with terrible execution. Back when it was released the novelty made it interesting for at least one playthrough of the game but it has aged incredibly poorly and is almost unplayable by today's standards.[/QUOTE]
Not really.
I still play it to this day. It's quite fun if you go shotgun mouthwash mode on the demons. I'd say, both Doom 3 and HL2, a game which was slightly locked in a fight with Doom 3 at release because of graphic comparisons, have aged well and badly, in different spots. For example, imo, Doom 3 did the environments pretty well, and they somewhat still hold up ok nowadays, something that doesn't happens with HL2 all that well imo. Despite this, HL2 did character models and animations WAY better than Doom 3.
[editline]2nd July 2015[/editline]
[QUOTE=No Party Hats;48098511]Oh absolutely, that's exactly why I love Doom 3 so much. Sure it's a departure from the original feel of the series, but it was well done with very clear intents in mind. Even if we dont get another game like it, it was still a great ride and I'm glad they tried that avenue. Doom 4 just feels unguided and uninspired so far. Now perhaps that could be blamed on the fact it's a demo and they dont want to spoil anything too big, but even just judging on the world and enemy design, it feels like the leap that Halo did over to 4 artistically. Sure, it's got those classic Doom kind of cues, and it clearly took a lot from Doom 3 too which is nice, but it feels so watered down and tasteless. The monsters all look the same to me, the smaller tier units I can't distinguish at all once it speeds up a bit.[/QUOTE]
I honestly hope they try to peg a story to it. Maybe not as much as Doom 3, but still give the option of it. I loved reading about how people reported weird things happening all around the UAC base in Doom 3, and other funky stuff like how a shipment of chainsaws ended up on Mars for no good reason.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;48098508]Doom 3 was a solid idea with terrible execution. Back when it was released the novelty made it interesting for at least one playthrough of the game but it has aged incredibly poorly and is almost unplayable by today's standards.[/QUOTE]
It's damn well playable by today's standards, the big problems are the repetitive monster closets / attempts at jumpscares and the methodical flashlight usage. The game becomes more of a chore until you get far enough in it that it stops trying to spook you and instead throws a bunch of enemies at you in a room wanting you to blow them up now.
As someone who started playing Doom with the original shareware DOS version, I can say that when you first play it, it's pretty slow paced. You don't know anything about the game, and it's tense as hell.
People associate Doom with pure speed now because the game's been around for over 20 years. People have gotten good at the game, and have developed strategies for speedrunning and whatnot, stuff like circle strafing and just sprinting past everything.
Look at the Hell gameplay. The top speed that you see the player go at is pretty fast, but he doesn't really go that fast through most of the video. That's mainly because it's an E3 stage show, but it's also because the game is [I]new[/I]. There aren't any speedrunning strategies or anything, although it was shown that circle strafing works. Hell, I could play Doom 3 right now (and I've been playing it for the past few hours) and just sprint past everything, playing like I do with the original 2 games.
Give it time. Everyone's going to get better at the game and it'll be fast as shit.
Doom 3 is unplayable by today's standards due to its horrible pacing, outdated as fuck technical aspect and numerous errors in designs.
It's also ungodly fucking ugly because it came out in one of these really bad transition periods of video gaming where games awkwardly move from one generation to the next, and despite being one of the pioneers Doom 3 was also one of the games to fail the test of time the most.
Having attempted to replay it about ten days ago I can say it's one of those games that just stopped being good a few years after it was made.
ffs people we're getting Doom that is fully gameplay driven and without any focus on storytelling (at least judging from trailers they're not interested in telling the story). I'm just so happy that I finally get to play another FPS that doesn't have limited number of weapons you can carry, reloads and pickup items. Also takedowns look fucking amazing and they seem grant you with bonus pickups if you manage to pull them off. I loved takedowns in Wolfenstein TNO and I'll love them here.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;48099256]Doom 3 is unplayable by today's standards due to its horrible pacing, outdated as fuck technical aspect and numerous errors in designs.
It's also ungodly fucking ugly because it came out in one of these really bad transition periods of video gaming where games awkwardly move from one generation to the next, and despite being one of the pioneers Doom 3 was also one of the games to fail the test of time the most.
Having attempted to replay it about ten days ago I can say it's one of those games that just stopped being good a few years after it was made.[/QUOTE]
I don't finish games very often, and I didn't even finish Doom 1 until earlier a couple weeks ago. And I still finished Doom 3 last year, even if it was somewhat of an exhausting game due to being pretty dull.
Different strokes for different folks but you're being extremely harsh about it.
[QUOTE=Ganerumo;48098468]Doom was originally a lot slower paced than most people remember now because back when it was released most people didn't play with a mouse at all. However, the beauty of Doom comes from the fact that it's a game that can be played very slowly and carefully but once you start getting good you can dash through the levels at insane speeds and it becomes a totally different game.
However, the original slow and steady approach to the game was not caused by design, but was an unintentional effect of people not playing with a mouse and therefore increasing the difficulty and decreasing its speed. So designing a game to be slow from the get go isn't going to make it reminiscent of the very early days of the licence, it's just going to make it sluggish and boring.
Moreover, ever since its original release the licence and people's first experience, it [I]has[/I] evolved and it's important to follow that evolution and adapt to it. Brutal Doom is an aberration that should never be considered an actual solution to moving the series forward, but trying to go backward and slow the game down clearly doesn't work.[/QUOTE]
honestly, the only thing DOOM does well is fast paced running and gunning
everything else about DOOM is pretty shitty by todays standards imo
judging the entire game as a whole as someone who never played it when he was a child, it's not great
[QUOTE=darth-veger;48097046][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/j7TrU0M.png[/IMG][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Nvbvkwb.png[/IMG]
Sound pack + color correction could get you a bit closer to a more original Doom'ish game.[/QUOTE]
Why do game developers insist on making everything brown these days?????
[editline]2nd July 2015[/editline]
Personally I loved the old doom but the colour choice in the new one makes it look much more like hell.
[QUOTE=elowin;48100322]honestly, the only thing DOOM does well is fast paced running and gunning
everything else about DOOM is pretty shitty by todays standards imo
judging the entire game as a whole as someone who never played it when he was a child, it's not great[/QUOTE]
I have more fun playing Doom than I've had playing most modern shooters tbh
[QUOTE='KING]THT[WRATH;48100419']Why do game developers insist on making everything brown these days?????
[editline]2nd July 2015[/editline]
Personally I loved the old doom but the colour choice in the new one makes it look much more like hell.[/QUOTE]
the reason for the yellow tinge in hell is airborne volcanic sulfur that would surely be abundant in such a place
the biggest let down of the game for me is that the chainsaw just plays through a set of animations. i expected it to be more interactive instead of just playing an animation
People will never be happy with doom.
If they try to make a game that has a slower pace and a horror type vibe,some will complain that it's not fast paced and that there's no "trashy metal" or "rip and tear"
If they try to make a game like that then some will call it out for copying brutal doom and misunderstanding how the original was.
Game looked hella fast anyway.Just cause he's not going fuckin speedy gonzales around the map doesn't mean it's slow.The animations do blow doe
[QUOTE=diobono;48101233]People will never be happy with doom.
If they try to make a game that has a slower pace and a horror type vibe,some will complain that it's not fast paced and that there's no "trashy metal" or "rip and tear"
If they try to make a game like that then some will call it out for copying brutal doom and misunderstanding how the original was.
Game looked hella fast anyway.Just cause he's not going fuckin speedy gonzales around the map doesn't mean it's slow.The animations do blow doe[/QUOTE]
Doom itself wasn't even that fast. People tend to forget the key searching and backtracking. You'd also be fighting bullet sponges if you didn't conserve your high-end ammo.
[QUOTE=RichyZ;48101268]Takedowns have a place in modern FPS games but the takedowns here may as well be a stopwatch appearing on the screen for a few seconds pausing the game, then resuming 3 seconds later with the player getting some health and ammo powerups.
The fact that there was roaring applause as he used the animation-chainsaw was really disappointing.[/QUOTE]
The general audiences don't give a shit about it being cinematic cutscenes, at least not until they play the game for themselves maybe. In an industry where QTEs are everywhere, games are commonly cinematic, and the principle of 'sacred cow' doesn't really exist to anyone but those who think of some sort of golden years of gaming fondly, people cheering at the chainsaw kills shouldn't surprise you at all.
Speed is not only a question of, well, raw speed, but also pacing. The original Doom had good pacing. You get monsters shooting at you after leaving the first room of most levels, for example. Then it also had traps: you have a lot of monsters, you kill them, everything gets quiet so you can calm a bit, then you press the necessary button to continue AND OH GOD 5 DOORS OPENED ON ROOMS FULL OF ENEMIES.
You shoot, and explore, and often you need to do both at the same time.
I'm not going to complain about how linear the demo is, it's a demo. But I can complain that there are only like 3 enemies at the same time on the screen, and I can complain that the pacing is interrutped all the time. You shoot - oh well, gonna stop there for the animation - you shoot again - wait wait wait, I must display the animation here, the action NEEDS to pause for 3 seconds - and so on.
One thing Doom 3 was bashed for were those random trap wall openings. It's just not part of modern level design.
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