Jon Tron vs Destiny / 4:21 AM - Zukriuchen: I Stand by JonTron, unironically - General

[QUOTE=Ta16;51955752][URL="http://gizmodo.com/popular-youtuber-jontron-has-some-batshit-crazy-thought-1793231221"][I]Oh Lordy[/I][/URL] [IMG]http://i.imgur.com/uCGOQlI.jpg[/IMG] I have a feeling the upcoming wave of negative coverage this is going to get is only going to entrench him further into these ideals.[/QUOTE] I feel bad for people related to normalboots like projared who're probably going to get fucked hard by this. [editline]13th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Lambeth;51955785]Most "SJW types" I've met in real life are fine. I think most people present themselves way differently on the internet than in real life.[/QUOTE] Most of the ones I've met are right pretentious buggers.

[QUOTE=Lobstuzz;51955812]He didn't say that at all. edit: You know what. Fuck it. Just gonna unsubscribe from this thread. Mob mentality has already taken over.[/QUOTE] Lol there it is. The classic "Facepunch is a hivemind" crap. It's not like everyone is agreeing you know. A few people are defending him, and hell even I feel the same. I'm still going to enjoy his content, but these beliefs will always be in the back of my mind. Like I said before, I feel like he's not completely sure in his beliefs and is sort of parroting what he's heard. The issue still stands that whether he is genuinely racist or parroting what he's heard, he's still saying it to a large audience and that's pretty terrible.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;51955805]The Pewdiepie effect[/QUOTE] Well with pewdiepie it was a case of some tasteless joke that got blown way out of proportion. The media ignored any attempts made by pewdiepie to explain himself and apologize for the joke and twisted his words to make him sound like a bigoted asshole. Also pewdiepie didn't go into full alt-right bigot mode and start spewing shit about white genocide and other shit like that.

[QUOTE=Helix Snake;51955810]The same could be said about alt righters. Being nice to people you barely know when talking about things other than politics doesn't excuse having harmful or hateful political beliefs.[/QUOTE] I've always viewed it as a matter of how much one desires or cares to keep a hold of some degree of relationship/power as a major influence of how one conducts themselves in their personal views. Also the matter of whether your identity is known to or matters those you're speaking to, whether it be one's real life identity or an online identity, changes how one conducts themselves. One conducts themselves differently to their personal friends and family than to those they have interest in making bank on.

[QUOTE=Helix Snake;51955833]What exactly do you think people are talking about when they say "Social Justice Warriors" They aren't called that for thinking that gays should have the right to get married or that men and women should be paid equally. Not on Facepunch anyways.[/QUOTE] Quite frankly I have no fucking idea what people mean when they say "SJW" because I've seen everyone to the left of Mussolini called an SJW at some point or another. It's been so watered down as a labeling mechanism that it means absolutely nothing, and it never [B]meant[/B] anything in the first place. The thing is that rightists always cry foul about the left throwing around "racist" or "homophobe" or "xenophobe" or what have you but those words actually have plainly obvious and unambiguous definitions. I've been called an SJW, and I dont think I've done anything as bad as advocated ethnic genocide or maintaining the purity of the white race.

[QUOTE=Lobstuzz;51955812]He didn't say that at all. edit: You know what. Fuck it. Just gonna unsubscribe from this thread. Mob mentality has already taken over.[/QUOTE] Really? Again?

[QUOTE=Duck M.;51955863]Quite frankly I have no fucking idea what people mean when they say "SJW" because I've seen everyone to the left of Mussolini called an SJW at some point or another. It's been so watered down as a labeling mechanism that it means absolutely nothing, and it never [B]meant[/B] anything in the first place. The thing is that rightists always cry foul about the left throwing around "racist" or "homophobe" or "xenophobe" or what have you but those words actually have plainly obvious and unambiguous definitions. I've been called an SJW, and I dont think I've done anything as bad as advocated ethnic genocide or maintaining the purity of the white race.[/QUOTE] like there are people who talk about how white people are scum and how the oppressed races need to rob them of what they stole and how men are all brutes and should be subserviant to women like those people exist the difference is that the crazy people on the left are on twitter and the crazy people on the right are in the fucking white house and congress

[QUOTE=zizzleplix;51955850]Well with pewdiepie it was a case of some tasteless joke that got blown way out of proportion. The media ignored any attempts made by pewdiepie to explain himself and apologize for the joke and twisted his words to make him sound like a bigoted asshole. Also pewdiepie didn't go into full alt-right bigot mode and start spewing shit about white genocide and other shit like that.[/QUOTE] Yeah that's true. The situations aren't really that similar, I was just reminded of the whole PDP scandal by MSM reporting on the perceived right-wing tendencies of popular youtubers (well, "perceived" for one of them)

[QUOTE=Lambeth;51955820]I don't think Social Justice as a concept is harmful or hateful outside of some outliers. Alt-right, I dunno.[/QUOTE] Social justice used to be known as byproduct of progressivism; justice for those who had been oppressed after so long. It was a concept big during the periods between the 1920's-1960's, when women and minorities had finally started to resist against the prevailing iron grip. Now? It's a phrase that has lost all its meaning, unfortunately. Too many people who believe that have entrenched themselves in radicalism, have lost their goals from previous feminist legends such as Betty Friedan with the Feminine Mystique, Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Mary Wollstonecraft, and countless others. Do I think feminism, as a movement, has died off? No. Is it in a shitty place? Yeah. And unfortunately, the idiots that propagate these SJW-centric views are acting as fuel for the far-right and reactionary groups, while also scaring off more moderate feminists and women's rights activists, which is a shame.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51955869]like there are people who talk about how white people are scum and how the oppressed races need to rob them of what they stole and how men are all brutes and should be subserviant to women like those people exist the difference is that the crazy people on the left are on twitter and the crazy people on the right are in the fucking white house and congress[/QUOTE] This is that horseshoe theory bullshit all over again. Where the left and the right are totally the same brand of bad just because they're both political ideologies and that they both exist. This is one of the most dangerous pieces of nonsense that I hear all the time. While it is true, yes, that [I]radicalism[/I] as a concept can apply to both ends of the spectrum (I say this haphazardly because I really dont like the concept of a linear political spectrum), the consequences of their actual beliefs are wildly different as the beliefs that these groups hold are massively different themselves. If I hear "The Fascists of the future will be the anti-fascists" one more god-damn time I'm going to leave this physical realm of existence.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;51955863]Quite frankly I have no fucking idea what people mean when they say "SJW" because I've seen everyone to the left of Mussolini called an SJW at some point or another. It's been so watered down as a labeling mechanism that it means absolutely nothing, and it never [B]meant[/B] anything in the first place. The thing is that rightists always cry foul about the left throwing around "racist" or "homophobe" or "xenophobe" or what have you but those words actually have plainly obvious and unambiguous definitions. I've been called an SJW, and I dont think I've done anything as bad as advocated ethnic genocide or maintaining the purity of the white race.[/QUOTE] "racist", "homophobe" and "xenophobe" don't really have clear definitions. Is someone who's against affirmative action a racist? My grandparents think that gay sex is a sin but gays should still be allowed to get married if they love each other (such a belief is not uncommon in the conservative Quaker community), are they homophobic? There are clear, unambiguous positives, for instance someone who believes that blacks are genetically inferior to whites is a clear racist, and someone who thinks all gays are child molesters is a homophobe, but you could say the same thing about SJWs.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;51955884]This is that horseshoe theory bullshit all over again. Where the left and the right are totally the same brand of bad just because they're both political ideologies and that they both exist. This is one of the most dangerous pieces of nonsense that I hear all the time. While it is true, yes, that [I]radicalism[/I] as a concept can apply to both ends of the spectrum (I say this haphazardly because I really dont like the concept of a linear political spectrum), the consequences of their actual beliefs are wildly different as the beliefs that these groups hold are massively different themselves. If I hear "The Fascists of the future will be the anti-fascists" one more god-damn time I'm going to leave this physical realm of existence.[/QUOTE] I'm pretty sick of false equivalence.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;51955884]This is that horseshoe theory bullshit all over again. Where the left and the right are totally the same brand of bad just because they're both political ideologies and that they both exist. This is one of the most dangerous pieces of nonsense that I hear all the time. While it is true, yes, that [I]radicalism[/I] as a concept can apply to both ends of the spectrum (I say this haphazardly because I really dont like the concept of a linear political spectrum), the consequences of their actual beliefs are wildly different as the beliefs that these groups hold are massively different themselves. If I hear "The Fascists of the future will be the anti-fascists" one more god-damn time I'm going to leave this physical realm of existence.[/QUOTE] While I mostly agree with you, the situation still requires [I]a lot[/I] more nuance than you apply to it.

[QUOTE=Helix Snake;51955890]My grandparents think that gay sex is a sin but gays should still be allowed to get married if they love each other (such a belief is not uncommon in the conservative Quaker community), are they homophobic? [/QUOTE] I don't think so! The difference is that they believe something but they don't force that belief on other people.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;51955884]This is that horseshoe theory bullshit all over again. Where the left and the right are totally the same brand of bad just because they're both political ideologies and that they both exist. This is one of the most dangerous pieces of nonsense that I hear all the time. While it is true, yes, that [I]radicalism[/I] as a concept can apply to both ends of the spectrum (I say this haphazardly because I really dont like the concept of a linear political spectrum), the consequences of their actual beliefs are wildly different as the beliefs that these groups hold are massively different themselves. If I hear "The Fascists of the future will be the anti-fascists" I'm going to leave this physical realm of existence.[/QUOTE] I mean it's true insofar as radical movements use similar strategies to recruit from similar groups of people like it all really boils down to finding people who feel like they don't have a purpose in life or who are down on their luck and telling them "we're the best because we're X, now eliminate the treacherous Y" it's like how different cults might believe in different things and do different stuff but they all prey on the same kinds of people

[QUOTE=Vodkavia;51955899]Where are you getting these numbers/proportions? I mean, considering how how little the alt right actually cares about facts, figures and arguments isn't it more likely that hur durr SJWs!!!!!1111 is an excuse to be racist/sexist/homophobic?[/QUOTE] I'm not saying that the alt-right doesn't do that. I've made plenty posts countering a lot of false equivalencies and conservatives trying to ignore their own partisan issues by pointing to a minority of rioters and SJWs. But saying that the SJW-culture doesn't leave an impact in feminism or the view of the left is blatantly naive. It could be that it's a very tiny minority of people. It actually is probably true. Yet, those types of people still affects the view of the left, and I've personally known people, specifically women, who don't like to come off as a "feminist" because of those extremist viewpoints, even in rural places where it seems like a person there wouldn't even know of their existence.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51955869]like there are people who talk about how white people are scum and how the oppressed races need to rob them of what they stole and how men are all brutes and should be subserviant to women like those people exist the difference is that the crazy people on the left are on twitter and the crazy people on the right are in the fucking white house and congress[/QUOTE] You still had candidates for the DNC leadership shouting after the election that very same ''white people are scum'' and ''muh oppression'' rhetoric, because angrily shouting is all that they have left at the moment, since they got fucking blown out on election day on all fronts that counted by a celebrity steak salesman with a iconic hairdo ,unless they cease that rhetoric bullshit and actually work out why they lost those very crucial states. Or why minorities in those states (Cubans in Florida and Amish in Pennsylvania) didn't go their way. Here's a general hint: Dropping said rhetoric would be a very good first step for them to start recovering their support in the states they unexpectedly lost. That's not even for recovering those minorities they took for granted, that's for their political message in general to the entirety of America. Although I expect them to keep doubling down for at least a few years more before they finally get the hint. The question is, how long will it take for them to finally get the hint?

[QUOTE=Lambeth;51955907]I don't think so! The difference is that they believe something but they don't force that belief on other people.[/QUOTE] How is that not homophobic? You don't have to force yourself on someone to be homophobic. By that logic Jontron isn't racist either.

[QUOTE=Helix Snake;51955890][...] My grandparents think that gay sex is a sin but gays should still be allowed to get married if they love each other (such a belief is not uncommon in the conservative Quaker community), are they homophobic? [...][/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Lambeth;51955907]I don't think so! The difference is that they believe something but they don't force that belief on other people.[/QUOTE] I guess it depends a bit on the definitions. To me they maybe (depends on other specifics) are, but as long as they don't practice it in a way that hurts people (this does include hate speech and various '''soft''' discrimination), I won't have a large issue with them having opinions like that. Anyway, I think what Helix Snake is pointing out is that there are people who are for acting against others on the basis of stuff like that, which in my opinion is a problem worth not completely dismissing even if it's just a (very) loud fringe group.

[QUOTE=carcarcargo;51955923]How is that not homophobic? You don't have to force yourself on someone to be homophobic. By that logic Jontron isn't racist either.[/QUOTE] I think it's bigoted but that it's not homophobic. they aren't using gay people as a scapegoat or anything like the republican party is using islam.

[QUOTE=Jordax;51955921]You still had candidates for the DNC leadership shouting after the election that very same ''white people are scum'' and ''muh oppression'' rhetoric, because angrily shouting is all that they have left at the moment, since they got fucking blown out on election day at all fronts that counted by a celebrity steak salesman with a iconic hairdo ,unless they cease that rhetoric bullshit and actually work out why they lost those very crucial states. Or why minorities in those states (Cubans in Florida and Amish in Pennsylvania) didn't go their way. Here's a general hint: Dropping said rhetoric would be a very good first step for them to start recovering their support in those states. That's not even for recovering those minorities they took for granted, that's for their political message in general to the entirety of America. Although I expect them to keep doubling down for at least a few years more before they finally get the hint. The question is, how long will it take for them to finally get the hint?[/QUOTE] yeah blown out by the meme man who lost the popular vote Holy shit am I sick of that fucking insipid narrative. Daddy Don wins by one of the thinnest margins in decades and that's "blowing out the libtards". Fucking read a book.

[QUOTE=Lambeth;51955932]I think it's bigoted but that it's not homophobic. they aren't using gay people as a scapegoat or anything like the republican party is using islam.[/QUOTE] Thinking being gay is a sin is homophobic, you don't have to do anything to be homophobic, simply maintaining the idea that gay people are evil is enough and damaging in its own way.

[QUOTE=Helix Snake;51955890]"racist", "homophobe" and "xenophobe" don't really have clear definitions. Is someone who's against affirmative action a racist? My grandparents think that gay sex is a sin but gays should still be allowed to get married if they love each other (such a belief is not uncommon in the conservative Quaker community), are they homophobic? There are clear, unambiguous positives, for instance someone who believes that blacks are genetically inferior to whites is a clear racist, and someone who thinks all gays are child molesters is a homophobe, but you could say the same thing about SJWs.[/QUOTE] Sure, but just because there is a spectrum of what could be considered racist thought does not mean that there isn't a definition that lies at the end of that spectrum. rac·ist ˈrāsəst/ noun a person who shows or feels discrimination or prejudice against people of other races, or who believes that a particular race is superior to another. That's pretty clear-cut. Is someone that is against affirmative action racist? Obviously not. Well, they might be, but you'd have to delve more into their personal ideology to gather that notion. Affirmative action is an implementation to counteract a noticed trend, perhaps someone disagrees with AA but wants to seek out a more effective measure of integrating minorities into our workforce. So no, they are not necessarily a racist. Are your grandparents homophobic? Yeah, I would say so, seeing as "homophobia" is defined as fear, discrimination, and/or prejudices against LGBT individuals. And while they support marriage, it's plainly obvious that being opposed to a natural part of homosexual life on the basis of religious belief is prejudice, although it is not entirely malicious in intent. Here's the thing. You can be prejudiced (or racist or homophobic, if you want to get, in JonTron's words, "raunchy") without being intentionally malicious. Holding biases that negatively affect or discriminate against a certain ethnic, racial, sexual, etc. group is problematic. What should be done with these people is that they should recognize their biases and work to reflect on them, but most people wont even acknowledge them. In fact, they'll get all defensive and become even more entrenched in their bigotry if you expose their biases. Us spooky scary SJWs are not out to get you or put you in thought camps, we're just asking you to maybe re-evaluate your worldview. People need to stop living in, ironically, their safe-spaces. But what does this mean if you're referring to someone as an SJW? What are you labeling them as? Which part of their character or ideology are you referring to? It's such a hodge-podge label that refers to such a multi-faceted set of beliefs and a very particular implementation of those beliefs that I find it hard to believe that it can be so widely used and abused. I've been on tumblr for 5 years. I've seen my share of SJWs, and I can recognize what they actually look like. They are so minute in their influence and are already mocked on their host platform. The fact that "tumblr" has become synonymous with "SJW" just shows how ignorant people are towards this whole issue. They'd rather circlejerk on /r/TiA over their cherrypicked textposts with zero notes than actually expose themselves to the incredibly large and diverse social media platform of an entire website. Really, I guess what I'm looking for is what you'd find in a textbook on what an SJW is. A definition and definite examples. If neither can be provided with much certainty, then it's not a useful label.

[QUOTE=Tamschi;51955901]While I mostly agree with you, the situation still requires [I]a lot[/I] more nuance than you apply to it.[/QUOTE] No I agree, I'm applying a very particular viewpoint that's admittedly a little heated to this issue. I'd be willing to have a more nuanced discussion to the best of my ability if anyone was up for it, though.

[QUOTE=Vodkavia;51955877]I mean this would be okay if he was a 15 year old just learning about US politics,[I] but he's a 26 years old[/I]. Him hypothetically parroting alt right disinformation doesn't change anything, some part of his audience is going to take his word as gospel. It doesn't matter if you in your hearts heart feel like all races are equal, if you do racist things that have racist effects knowingly you are in every practical sense a racist.[/QUOTE] That's what I said though? [quote=kariko]The issue still stands that whether he is genuinely racist or parroting what he's heard, he's still saying it to a large audience and that's pretty terrible.[/quote] Maybe I worded it badly but I meant exactly what you said. Whether he is parroting or not doesn't matter, he's still influencing people with it.

[QUOTE=Lobstuzz;51955812]He didn't say that at all.[/QUOTE] I've been talking to Mr. Scorpio over PMs and I'd like to say that I was wrong. I was ignorant to terms being used and was taking them at face value.

As sad as it is to hear these words come out of Jons mouth, I can't help but laugh at the whole situation. I mean, how out of touch and stubborn can you be to think those thoughts are even [I]remotely[/I] ok to voice, let alone actually believe.

[QUOTE=Lobstuzz;51955967]I've been talking to Mr. Scorpio over PMs and I'd like to say that I was wrong. I was ignorant to terms being used and was taking them at face value.[/QUOTE] It's cool. Sorry for getting so heated, you're alright.

He's still funny. Yal'l are crazy if you are unsubbing just because he has uninformed opinions. If he unnecessarily shoehorns his beliefs into his videos then sure.

[QUOTE=Daniel Smith;51955987]He's still funny. Yal'l are crazy if you are unsubbing just because he has uninformed opinions. If he unnecessarily shoehorns his beliefs into his videos then sure.[/QUOTE] Oh definitely. I'd hate to see him lose anything career-wise from this, as he has a good thing going so far and I enjoy his content.