Jon Tron vs Destiny / 4:21 AM - Zukriuchen: I Stand by JonTron, unironically - General

[QUOTE=MrJazzy;51956074]It's not about the content tho[/QUOTE] I'm pretty good at disconnecting people from their content, for example I still admire the art of artists who have made fun of me. But I understand it's more about not wanting to support the message he's sharing by giving him views and a sub, but he seems like the kind of guy who is going through a phase and is just surrounding himself with a really weird crowd. We'll see though.

[QUOTE=Lambeth;51955820]I don't think Social Justice as a concept is harmful or hateful outside of some outliers. Alt-right, I dunno.[/QUOTE] But like alt-righters, Helix was referring to SJW's which would normally be those outliers.

two years ago: [video=youtube;e95-LQu9xDY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e95-LQu9xDY[/video]

[QUOTE=Duck M.;51956087]Why does it take "the world being a better place if all Muslims were lined up against a wall and shot in the back of the had with a freedom pistol" for you to take issue with someone's beliefs? You will probably not take issue with anyone short of David Duke if you only look for the most explicit endorsements of prejudice possible. We live in a landscape where problematic most views are found deep within layers of gaslighting, dogwhistles, and misrepresented statistics. Unless you actually put forth the effort to peel back those layers you're going to end up being tolerant to a [B]lot[/B] of despicable shit.[/QUOTE] Yeah. I draw the line at advocating violent acts. How weird is that? I believe that disassociating from people based on what they think will accelerate their already delusional ideas and once the only people who surround them share the same ideas it'll only get worse.

[QUOTE=Daniel Smith;51955987]He's still funny. Yal'l are crazy if you are unsubbing just because he has uninformed opinions. If he unnecessarily shoehorns his beliefs into his videos then sure.[/QUOTE] i dont rlly wanna support a dude who basically hates me tbh

[QUOTE=Daniel Smith;51956111]Yeah. I draw the line at advocating violent acts. How weird is that? I believe that disassociating from people based on what they think will accelerate their already delusional ideas and once the only people who surround them share the same ideas it'll only get worse.[/QUOTE] But there are plenty of oppressive and discriminatory policies and practices that were, could be and ARE currently implemented that, while not directly violent, are massively harmful to the livelihoods of millions of people. The way discrimination manifests itself today does not lend itself to direct violence other than in acts of extremism and terrorism. If you ignore everything outside of that, again, you're letting a lot slip by.

[QUOTE=Vodkavia;51956147] [B]Being openly racist is becoming 'normal' in parts of the developed world,[/B] Jon Tron's and the rest of the alt rights ideas come from a rejection of reason/facts. Trying to engage these people in a way that's comfortable for them when they're not even going to play by rules of reason/accountability themselves is just giving them air to breathe.[/QUOTE] "But it's their opinion!" is usually the canned response. Which isn't even true. They aren't opinions, they're factually incorrect hypotheses presented on flawed premises and false data.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;51956134]But there are plenty of oppressive and discriminatory policies and practices that both could be and ARE currently implemented that, while not directly violent, are massively harmful to the livelihoods of millions of people. The way discrimination manifests itself today does not lend itself to direct violence other than in acts of extremism and terrorism. If you ignore everything outside of that, again, you're letting a lot slip by.[/QUOTE] Yes I know, and I doubt he fully understands that. People can change though, there needs to be fans and other podcasters like Destiny to communicate and debate with people like JonTron. Don't leave him alone with the alt right crowd, you would be doing him and potentially the livelihood of others a disservice if you and everyone else makes him feel isolated and leave him alone with the alt right crowd.

yeah i'm not going to lose sleep at night over a racist losing youtube subscribers

[QUOTE=Duck M.;51956160]"But it's their opinion!" is usually the canned response. Which isn't even true. They aren't opinions, they're factually incorrect hypotheses presented on flawed premises and false data.[/QUOTE] They are opinions, and they are also factually incorrect. An opinion doesn't have to be true to be an opinion. That's what make it an opinion.

[QUOTE=Camdude90;51956058]he debated that naked ape guy that gets posted here sometimes too it went pretty well [url]https://clips.twitch.tv/OriginalRockyAntTooSpicy[/url][/QUOTE] [url]https://www.twitch.tv/videos/128503581[/url] starts around 13~ minutes this is the most fucking disgusting thing I've ever heard how can people interact with this pond scum without fucking killing themselves

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51956178][URL]https://www.twitch.tv/videos/128503581[/URL] starts around 13~ minutes this is the most fucking disgusting thing I've ever heard how can people interact with this pond scum without fucking killing themselves[/QUOTE] Naked Ape is one of the most annoyed people I've ever heard in my entire life. Everything he says is pure cringe, I feel like yelling at the screen and trying to correct him but even if he could hear me he'd just call me a cuck or someshit.

[QUOTE=Daniel Smith;51956161]Yes I know, and I doubt he fully understands that. People can change though, there needs to be fans and other podcasters like Destiny to communicate and debate with people like JonTron. Don't leave him alone with the alt right crowd, you would be doing him and potentially the livelihood of others a disservice if you and everyone else makes him feel isolated and leave him alone with the alt right crowd.[/QUOTE] Did you watch the entire debate between Jon and Destiny, though? Jon was in no way interested in rational discourse and was not open to new ideas at [I]all[/I]. He laughed off everything Destiny presented and stuttered out nonsense like "you're not living in reality!" and "you people are impossible to argue with because you put me into a corner in order to make me look like a nazi!". There is this massive victimization complex within these people that, when combined with their absolute certainty in their beliefs cemented by gigabites of KotakuInAction memes, results in an impenetrable fortress of cognative dissonance that is fucking impossible to break through. If he doesn't want to be isolated with the alt-right crowd maybe he should stop hanging out with Sargon and Breitbart?

ah boy. this is so bad. i am just listening to the debate video. jon is so woefully uneducated. i'd love to separate his opinions from his comedy but man his opinions are just so bad. i can try but fuck.

I honestly can't say I give a shit, as long as someone's political opinions stay out of the entertainment they produce then they can keep saying stupid shit and going on massive political shitposting sprees on whatever social media they like. If I started to care then I'd have to scrutinize all of the content creators I follow for their political opinions and I don't want to start going down that rabbit hole.

[QUOTE=Daniel Smith;51956168]They are opinions, and they are also factually incorrect. An opinion doesn't have to be true to be an opinion. That's what make it an opinion.[/QUOTE] Opinions are based in subjective perspectives and typically have no basis in any sort of factual reality. See; "Vanilla ice cream is better than chocolate ice cream". There is no testable, repeatable, or falsifiable basis for this claim. It is just as valid as the contrary. That's what makes it an opinion. "The mass immigration of incompatible cultures to western nations is resulting in a degredation of society" or, if you prefer a verbatim quote from the 'Tron himself, "We've gotten rid of discrimination in our western countries.", are not quite the same beast.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51956178][url]https://www.twitch.tv/videos/128503581[/url] starts around 13~ minutes this is the most fucking disgusting thing I've ever heard how can people interact with this pond scum without fucking killing themselves[/QUOTE] "Did my white nationalist monkey joke get on air??!?" "uuhh...yes I think so" "YESSSS HAHA!!" throw this fucking mong into the sun holy shit.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;51956189]Did you watch the entire debate between Jon and Destiny, though? Jon was in no way interested in rational discourse and was not open to new ideas at [I]all[/I]. He laughed off everything Destiny presented and stuttered out nonsense like "you're not living in reality!" and "you people are impossible to argue with because you put me into a corner in order to make me look like a nazi!". There is this massive victimization complex within these people that, when combined with their absolute certainty in their beliefs cemented by gigabites of KotakuInAction memes, results in an impenetrable fortress of cognative dissonance that is fucking impossible to break through. If he doesn't want to be isolated with the alt-right crowd maybe he should stop hanging out with Sargon and Breitbart?[/QUOTE] Yeah. Jon was feeling vulnerable and tried (and failed, because it's a huge fallacy) to blame or laugh at the other party. Like what Rusty100 said, he's woefully uninformed and not prepared to debate anyone on anything political. He may learn and change. He may not. He's been open about his views for how long, a few months?

So. He went ping-ponging between understandable opinions like controlling/limiting immigration and that countries should try and maintain their cultural identity, which I agree with, to "Wealthy blacks also commit more crime than poor whites, that's a fact." for the entire video. What. I'm probably late to the party here but what the fuck Jon This went from politically right opinions and shitposting with people screaming "REE YOU'RE A NAZI FOR WRONGTHINKING" which was amusing, to Jon basically saying black people are inferior inferior to whites, and wondering why people hate him for it. What the fuck.

[QUOTE=Ganerumo;51956202]I honestly can't say I give a shit, as long as someone's political opinions stay out of the entertainment they produce then they can keep saying stupid shit and going on massive political shitposting sprees on whatever social media they like. If I started to care then I'd have to scrutinize all of the content creators I follow for their political opinions and I don't want to start going down that rabbit hole.[/QUOTE] when did not liking actual fucking racists talking about white genocide become the same as not liking people who are conservative or liberal is this really how loathsome people are? we can't dislike the most odious shit because if we did we'd have to dislike everyone?

[QUOTE=Tetsmega;51956096]But like alt-righters, Helix was referring to SJW's which would normally be those outliers.[/QUOTE] Is Steve Bannon an outlier on the alt right?

[QUOTE=Rusty100;51956196]ah boy. this is so bad. i am just listening to the debate video. jon is so woefully uneducated. i'd love to separate his opinions from his comedy but man his opinions are just so bad. i can try but fuck.[/QUOTE] It honestly just gets worse (and better) the farther you get. It's a fucking trainwreck.

[QUOTE=Duck M.;51956206]Opinions are based in subjective perspectives and typically have no basis in any sort of factual reality. See; "Vanilla ice cream is better than chocolate ice cream". There is no testable, repeatable, or falsifiable basis for this claim. It is just as valid as the contrary. That's what makes it an opinion. "The mass immigration of incompatible cultures to western nations is resulting in a degredation of society" or, if you prefer a verbatim quote from the 'Tron himself, "We've gotten rid of discrimination in our western countries.", are not quite the same beast.[/QUOTE] I always assumed that an opinion was basically just any belief or thought held, does it really exclude things that can be objectively falsified?

[QUOTE=hexpunK;51956211]"Did my white nationalist monkey joke get on air??!?" "uuhh...yes I think so" "YESSSS HAHA!!" throw this fucking mong into the sun holy shit.[/QUOTE] His loud laughter following Destiny calmly explaining that the countries weren't comparable was annoying...That doesn't make you win an argument. I don't know why he's doing that. It's really irritating to listen to. And I'm never letting Jon's gene pool comment die. That reddit list of his quotes didn't include it but I think that was a really horrible one.

[QUOTE=jimbobjoe1234;51955597]Honestly I say be wary of anyone who identifies closely with a "side." Our politics have turned from civil debate to verbal warfare. We no longer see people with different opinions but rather enemies instead. Jon is an example of this, a well meaning person who got wrapped up in joining a side rather than forming his own idea. Guy needs to take a break and look at all sides of these things he has argued for and against, just like a lot of people of Facepunch probably need to do as well.[/QUOTE] ^ This. Can't we all just fucking drop this before we actually lose Jontron because of political bullshit? Yeah he's made some dumb statements, but as far as we know he does not put his agenda in his content. He keeps both separate, and we should enjoy that he puts his views separate from his videos. I think we all need a break. A freaking chill pill.

[QUOTE=kariko;51956236]His loud laughter following Destiny calmly explaining that the countries weren't comparable was annoying...That doesn't make you win an argument. I don't know why he's doing that. It's really irritating to listen to.[/QUOTE] because people like jontron hear that and think "wow, he sure showed him!"

[QUOTE=maddogsamurai;51956240]^ This. Can't we all just fucking drop this before we actually lose Jontron because of political bullshit? Yeah he's made some dumb statements, but as far as we know he does not put his agenda in his content. He keeps both separate, and we should enjoy that he puts his views separate from his videos. I think we all need a break. A freaking chill pill.[/QUOTE] Like I've said multiple times, I'm still going to watch his content but these opinions and ideas are really shitty and I'll always be thinking about them during any of his stuff now. And we can keep them separate. I still like his videos but that doesn't stop me from calling him out on how horrible the things he's saying are. Honestly I'm unsure though. With people bringing up how watching his content is in a way supporting these views, I'm not 100% on doing that. Mostly unsure now.

[QUOTE=Daniel Smith;51956231]I always assumed that an opinion was basically just any belief or thought held, does it really exclude things that can be objectively falsified?[/QUOTE] You [I]can[/I] mix fact and opinion (which is where all of the nuance in this discussion comes from). Where I'm coming from is a purely scientific one where hypotheses have to be airtight and distinct based on a certain set of criteria (namely, that it must be testable, falsifiable, and repeatable). An opinion, if you were to define it, would not be based on evidence that can be checked or investigated. The real issue isn't in semantics, I suppose, but more with this pedestal "opinions" have been placed on where every single viewpoint is protected from all sides for the simple fact that it is "a viewpoint". It seems that people are obsessed with maintaining the integrity of one's character and separating it entirely from their core ideology or presented viewpoints, which is obviously pretty fucking stupid. The difference between actual, pure opinions and what we now label with the term "opinion" is that the former is not really subject to criticism. How can you objectively criticize or falsify "I like vanilla ice cream"? It's not possible. Now, apply this logic to every single "belief or thought held" as you say. Do you see where the problem arises? This is where this safeguard is generated from. This same logic is applied to all viewpoints and ideologies when it [I]shouldnt be.[/I]

[QUOTE=Vodkavia;51956268]I'm sorry but you can't keep them separate. The viewership he gets signal boosts his racist ideas and gives him a sense of legitimacy.[/QUOTE] It's funny because I wasn't really aware of just how big Jon's following outside of Youtube was until I checked his twitter followers. He has 1.78 [I][B]MILLION [/B][/I]FOLLOWERS ON TWITTER. How in gods green earth are we [I]possibly[/I] pushing the argument that he has no influence outside of his primary content creation? This is boggling my mind.

Honestly I don't have any skin in this game, I didn't like jontron's videos before and I probably won't like him after this. Maybe that says something about his ability to attract new viewers though.