Jon Tron vs Destiny / 4:21 AM - Zukriuchen: I Stand by JonTron, unironically - General

[b] AY YI YI [/b]

I wonder if his usual sponsors are going to continue business relations with Jon. Probably not.

When Jontron laughs it sounds super evil.

[QUOTE=Stroheim;51957063]I mean lets be fair, the whole "hyper-internet-Left" comes down on him like literally every two months for some stupid shit. Granted, now they have a "good" reason, but still, after a while you'd get so fucking sick of it.[/QUOTE] As annoying as they are, you don't go full fuck force white nationalist in response. I've noticed a lot of people going that way in response and it's dumb as fuck, it just makes those self-righteous internet Knights feel even more vindicated

[QUOTE=Wafflemonstr;51956727]He deserves the "abuse". [b]His thoughts are unacceptable[/b][/QUOTE] Somehow, this phrase just doesn't make sense in a democratic society. Not that I'm trying to defend his views, JonTron is a retard, but I suppose there are better wordings for what you meant. It just sounds really fucking weird.

[QUOTE=CruelAddict;51958286]Somehow, this phrase just doesn't make sense in a democratic society. Not that I'm trying to defend his views, JonTron is a retard, but I suppose there are better wordings for what you meant. It just sounds really fucking weird.[/QUOTE] It's this weird idea that's hard to put into words. It's one thing to have an uncommon or douche opinion, but apparently being a racist means you have views that shouldn't be allowed and thus are treated like some sort of inhuman entity. Which is, y'know, hypocrisy despite being isolated to an individual in the scenario. Not to mention that racism is on the rise again now that politics have driven a wedge of all kinds of hell into these matters, so it's not easy to really just sweep specific individuals under the rug for disagreeing with them. And yet arguing in favor of racism at all gets you labeled as a racist too. For a nation where freedom of speech is protected by law, we're really fucking spiteful towards eachother if we don't agree with eachother. But I guess that's to be expected.

[QUOTE=Jackald;51956547]Pffft, JonTron's not a very clever white supremacist is he, he's not even white himself, he's half Iranian I think.[/QUOTE] Well I mean Hitler wasn't a very clever aryan preserver being both dark-haired and brown-eyed iirc :vs:

[QUOTE=CruelAddict;51958286]Somehow, this phrase just doesn't make sense in a democratic society. Not that I'm trying to defend his views, JonTron is a retard, but I suppose there are better wordings for what you meant. It just sounds really fucking weird.[/QUOTE] i'd be slightly worried if you could accept the idea that black people were genetically disposed to crime i know the wording is a bit insidious, but the other side of the coin is just as objectionable

[QUOTE=RikohZX;51958309]It's this weird idea that's hard to put into words. It's one thing to have an uncommon or douche opinion, but apparently being a racist means you have views that shouldn't be allowed and thus are treated like some sort of inhuman entity. Which is, y'know, hypocrisy despite being isolated to an individual in the scenario. Not to mention that racism is on the rise again now that politics have driven a wedge of all kinds of hell into these matters, so it's not easy to really just sweep specific individuals under the rug for disagreeing with them. And yet arguing in favor of racism at all gets you labeled as a racist too. For a nation where freedom of speech is protected by law, we're really fucking spiteful towards eachother if we don't agree with eachother. But I guess that's to be expected.[/QUOTE] That's the thing which bothers me reading stuff like this. Apparently hating people of other colors, hating gays etc., is just plain wrong and should be shutted down. EDIT: I believe I might sound confusing, I do NOT think it's okay, just for the sake of discussion. Where is the freedom of thought when you hear things like this? Therefore, hating others for their beliefs is OK? If not, then hating JonTron for his beliefs is wrong? Where is the line?

[media]http://youtu.be/Nvj5m-FYvDw[/media] Anyone remember when Jon made political jokes? Those were the times

[QUOTE=CruelAddict;51958335]That's the thing which bothers me reading stuff like this. Apparently hating people of other colors, hating gays etc., is just plain wrong and should be shutted down. EDIT: I believe I might sound confusing, I do NOT think it's okay, just for the sake of discussion. Where is the freedom of thought when you hear things like this? Therefore, hating others for their beliefs is OK? If not, then hating JonTron for his beliefs is wrong? Where is the line?[/QUOTE] The line is entirely arbitrary. I don't think people should hate people with different origin. I don't think people should hate Jon for being vocal about his beliefs. But I do however think that Jon is in the wrong - Not that he objectively is, because right and wrong is after all just something we've made up. It's just an unproductive way of thinking, and hatred breeds hatred which is never good. It just seems to me that Jon is reacting to the ultra-leftism that's sprung up the recent years. He doesn't want anything to do with that shit, so he's kept away from sources that broadcast similar views, and ends up with a single-sided skewed view of how things should be.

[QUOTE=CruelAddict;51958335]That's the thing which bothers me reading stuff like this. Apparently hating people of other colors, hating gays etc., is just plain wrong and should be shutted down. EDIT: I believe I might sound confusing, I do NOT think it's okay, just for the sake of discussion. Where is the freedom of thought when you hear things like this? Therefore, hating others for their beliefs is OK? If not, then hating JonTron for his beliefs is wrong? Where is the line?[/QUOTE] jontron has freedom of thought, presumably he thought these things before he said them it's not like we have perfect access to his brain - how can we judge him by any metric other than how he acts (advertising racist beliefs on twitter, on stream etc)? what evidence do you have that someone has "bad beliefs" other than when they demonstrate them? Are we not allowed to judge the demonstration of those beliefs without violating freedom of thought?

[QUOTE=CruelAddict;51958286]Somehow, this phrase just doesn't make sense in a democratic society. Not that I'm trying to defend his views, JonTron is a retard, but I suppose there are better wordings for what you meant. It just sounds really fucking weird.[/QUOTE] You could say they're morally unacceptable, or intolerable. I do think there are certain opinions that are entirely unacceptable by society. To give some examples, if I were to say murder is fine, or that rape should be legal, or that genocide is acceptable, any of those viewpoints is horribly wrong and not tolerated by society. If I were to say any one of those I'd be liable to get fired from my job, rightly so in my opinion. Those are of course, really extreme examples, but it shows that there are certainly opinions that are unacceptable, ones you take for granted so much that you might not even think about it. Whether you think being a racist fits in to that category is up to you but I believe society is leaning towards yes, it does.

[QUOTE=Stroheim;51957063]I mean lets be fair, the whole "hyper-internet-Left" comes down on him like literally every two months for some stupid shit. Granted, now they have a "good" reason, but still, after a while you'd get so fucking sick of it.[/QUOTE] He just needs to learn how to step back and apologize & reevaluate instead of holding his ground on everything, even when proven wrong. His debate with Destiny showed this a lot It even started with the "retarded" thing. More people were mad at how he reacted at people asking him to stop than him saying the word (me included). I think just apologizing would have kept that to a days worth of drama, max.

You know, [URL="http://www.americanscientist.org/bookshelf/pub/race-finished"]given that according to the scientific consensus[/URL], [URL="https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/race-is-a-social-construct-scientists-argue/"]race[/URL] [URL="https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/1998-10/WUiS-GSRD-071098.php"]doesn't[/URL] [URL="http://www.livescience.com/47627-race-is-not-a-science-concept.html"]exist[/URL] and all, we can safely conclude that Jafari is talking out of his ass, and seriously needs to get out more and do some real research. I was shocked to find that someone I had held in such high regard as an entertainer was, in fact, completely degenerate in his politics and scientifically illiterate. The future of the human race is pretty clear, if we survive long enough. Phenotypes, which developed only as superficially distinct physical features in order to adapt to differing climates, and that largely because global travel with the ease we enjoy today was a technological impossibility in the past, will eventually disappear as the species, which is now able to travel globally in mere hours, mixes. The gene pool will get much more diverse, which benefits the species as a whole. The ultimate disappearance of these phenotypes, no matter which of them you happen to belong to, is to be celebrated rather than feared, not only because we'll be more genetically robust, but there's another upside - maybe it'll give humans one less excuse to impose nonsensical, pseudo-scientific divisions on the species.

[QUOTE=rndgenerator;51954362]Alt right? Deep end? Am I reading this right? Jon is now alt right deep end nazi because he has anti-immigration views? Whoa[/QUOTE] Wrote a long post, and here's my edit to cut that shit down: My "deep end" is when someone has the worst stances, but is also immovable. Someone can have an anti-immigration stance and be a loving person that wants the world to be great for everybody. Someone can also have an anti-immigration stance with unanswered concerns about what they've heard from Trump, but are still able to hold a conversation and will consider things you say. Someone who believes in awful shit but puts their beliefs out there as definitive, unquestionable answers without proof, and still considers themselves to be the voice of reason is someone not worth talking to, because there's too much ego involved. I don't think you can break through to Jon under the ordinary conditions of a debate simply because he'll laugh it off and tell you to do the research. He's not one to concede on even parts of an argument.

[QUOTE=wauterboi;51958391]Wrote a long post, and here's my edit to cut that shit down: My "deep end" is when someone has the worst stances, but is also immovable. Someone can have an anti-immigration stance and be a loving person that wants the world to be great for everybody. Someone can also have an anti-immigration stance with unanswered concerns about what they've heard from Trump, but are still able to hold a conversation and will consider things you say. Someone who believes in awful shit but puts their beliefs out there as definitive, unquestionable answers without proof, and still considers themselves to be the voice of reason is someone not worth talking to, because there's too much ego involved. I don't think you can break through to Jon under the ordinary conditions of a debate simply because he'll laugh it off and tell you to do the research. He's not one to concede on even parts of an argument.[/QUOTE] In other words, he may as well be brain-dead, because he's completely rejected science and objective reality in favour of his fantasy, which he'll cling to no matter how compelling the evidence presented to him. Jon's already a lost cause. Shame, because some of us, myself included, liked him once.

[QUOTE=archangel125;51958427]In other words, he may as well be brain-dead, because he's completely rejected science and objective reality in favour of his fantasy, which he'll cling to no matter how compelling the evidence presented to him. Jon's already a lost cause. Shame, because some of us, myself included, liked him once.[/QUOTE] The thing is that I talk to a lot of Trump supporters, Republicans, racists, red-pilled users, and all sorts of people. The defining factor is their ability to have a conversation. When they are able to, I try really hard to give the idea that I can be wrong and they can be wrong without suffering any blows to our ego, and I try to encourage questions and answers on both sides. And I think by doing that, I've been able to reach out to some people and show that the other side doesn't always fit the stereotype or the monster they have imagined, and similarly I do the same. A lot of these people who are alt-right are still people - some of them are misinformed, scared, and all sorts of things. We all share a lot of fears about the world. And in that, we can relate to some degree. And I think through that relation with these kinds of people common ground can be made and both sides can learn from one another and some swaying can happen. The problem isn't that JonTron has heard all sorts of evidence about anything. I've listened to people make the case that the world is run by Jews and shown all sorts of graphs and documents to support that case, but I don't believe in that case and I don't think I've become a problem to that. I have acquaintances that have had that exposure and have some suspicions or are unsure about it, but aren't chuck full of hate or anything. You could still talk to them. They may still be ready for debate. The ultimate issue with JonTron is what many people of the left face, which is the having moved so far into the deep end that they're probably not returning. When I defined my personal opinion of what the deep end was, I didn't attach a political side to it. There's fucking wretched immovable people on the left too. Think of the worst of the worst regressive liberals - that's what I'm paring JonTron with. It isn't about being alt-right or anything, it's about having a thick skull preventing anyone from reaching him.

[QUOTE=wauterboi;51958455]The thing is that I talk to a lot of Trump supporters, Republicans, racists, red-pilled users, and all sorts of people. The defining factor is their ability to have a conversation. When they are able to, I try really hard to give the idea that I can be wrong and they can be wrong without suffering any blows to our ego, and I try to encourage questions and answers on both sides. And I think by doing that, I've been able to reach out to some people and show that the other side doesn't always fit the stereotype or the monster they have imagined, and similarly I do the same. A lot of these people who are alt-right are still people - some of them are misinformed, scared, and all sorts of things. We all share a lot of fears about the world. And in that, we can relate to some degree. And I think through that relation with these kinds of people common ground can be made and both sides can learn from one another and some swaying can happen. The problem isn't that JonTron has heard all sorts of evidence about anything. I've listened to people make the case that the world is run by Jews and shown all sorts of graphs and documents to support that case, but I don't believe in that case and I don't think I've become a problem to that. I have acquaintances that have had that exposure and have some suspicions or are unsure about it, but aren't chuck full of hate or anything. You could still talk to them. They may still be ready for debate. The ultimate issue with JonTron is what many people of the left face, which is the having moved so far into the deep end that they're probably not returning. When I defined my personal opinion of what the deep end was, I didn't attach a political side to it. There's fucking wretched immovable people on the left too. Think of the worst of the worst regressive liberals - that's what I'm paring JonTron with. It isn't about being alt-right or anything, it's about having a thick skull preventing anyone from reaching him.[/QUOTE] I think that as long as one is willing to seriously consider new evidence that goes against one's beliefs, there's still hope that even those with extreme views can be reformed, on both the left and right. But I myself have a hard time treating views like Jafari's with much respect, not only because I disagree but because human civilization has already had this conversation once, relatively recently in our history, nearly ninety years ago. There's no point in having it again, especially since science does not support such flawed perspectives. Furthermore, we've had plenty of time in the rest of the civilized world to move past such stupidity, especially considering the harm that 'racial' segregation has done in the past. The perspective of 'race is real' is not only without basis in science, it's degenerative - harmful to society in its divisiveness and clinging to malice that should've died and been buried a long, long time ago. If you want to talk about cultural conflicts, that's a legitimate worry and a conversation worth having. But that wasn't what he was talking about at all. On one hand, that makes me an immovable object and not good at actually convincing anybody. On the other, I have a hard time separating that stance from, say, the resistance to other rejections of objective reality, such as anthropogenic climate change (Which has nearly a century of research supporting it) or ideas as brainless as the flat earth theory. How can we have a conversation with people who can't even agree on what is real? People will believe, ultimately, whatever they decide they want to believe. All evidence that seems to support their desire will seem conclusive, and all evidence contradicting it will be rationalized away or arbitrarily dismissed. And that's the thing, isn't it? We can use that very statement to dismiss virtually any perspective, because of all the pseudo-scientific bull floating around, from both the past and present. The closest we can ever come to an objective measure of reality is the scientific consensus.

[QUOTE=archangel125;51958390]You know, [URL="http://www.americanscientist.org/bookshelf/pub/race-finished"]given that according to the scientific consensus[/URL], [URL="https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/race-is-a-social-construct-scientists-argue/"]race[/URL] [URL="https://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/1998-10/WUiS-GSRD-071098.php"]doesn't[/URL] [URL="http://www.livescience.com/47627-race-is-not-a-science-concept.html"]exist[/URL] and all, we can safely conclude that Jafari is talking out of his ass, and seriously needs to get out more and do some real research.[/QUOTE] Genuinely curious, why are animals like the Siberian Tiger and Bengal Tiger considered a subspecies of Tiger, but Humans who also come from different corners of the globe and have minor genetic and cosmetic differences are not?

[Media]https://twitter.com/Reverend_Banjo/status/841340677631926276[/media] [url]http://www.statsheep.com/jontronshow[/url] Ever since yesterday with people reporting on it, he's lot a lot of subs. Not a huge % of 3 million but

[QUOTE=TheJoey;51956775]so he's guilty of thought crimes then?[/QUOTE] lmao what the fuck is this why does this keep fuckin happening nigga, listen, just because someone says something stupid and fuckin shitty and is criticized for it, they are not being "persecuted" for "thought crime" (also for fucks sake actually read 1984 (and if you have and still do this then i literally have no idea how you managed)). They are free to say fuckin stupid racist shit and everyone is free to respond and think somethings unacceptable. Freedom of speech isnt some magic get out of jail free card.

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;51958543]Genuinely curious, why are animals like the Siberian Tiger and Bengal Tiger considered a subspecies of Tiger, but Humans who also come from different corners of the globe and have minor genetic and cosmetic differences are not?[/QUOTE] It's just feel-good virtue signaling on an academic scale, nothing more.

[QUOTE=KillRay;51958610][Media]https://twitter.com/Reverend_Banjo/status/841340677631926276[/media] [url]http://www.statsheep.com/jontronshow[/url] Ever since yesterday with people reporting on it, he's lot a lot of subs. Not a huge % of 3 million but[/QUOTE] 7k of his 3 million [editline]14th March 2017[/editline] [url]https://socialblade.com/youtube/user/jontronshow[/url] [editline]14th March 2017[/editline] It's probably not gonna say "Maker Studios" on there for long though

[QUOTE=archangel125;51958504]I think that as long as one is willing to seriously consider new evidence that goes against one's beliefs, there's still hope that even those with extreme views can be reformed, on both the left and right. But I myself have a hard time treating views like Jafari's with much respect, not only because I disagree but because human civilization has already had this conversation once, relatively recently in our history, nearly ninety years ago. There's no point in having it again, especially since science does not support such flawed perspectives. Furthermore, we've had plenty of time in the rest of the civilized world to move past such stupidity, especially considering the harm that 'racial' segregation has done in the past. The perspective of 'race is real' is not only without basis in science, it's degenerative - harmful to society in its divisiveness and clinging to malice that should've died and been buried a long, long time ago. If you want to talk about cultural conflicts, that's a legitimate worry and a conversation worth having. But that wasn't what he was talking about at all. On one hand, that makes me an immovable object and not good at actually convincing anybody. On the other, I have a hard time separating that stance from, say, the resistance to other rejections of objective reality, such as anthropogenic climate change (Which has nearly a century of research supporting it) or ideas as brainless as the flat earth theory. How can we have a conversation with people who can't even agree on what is real? People will believe, ultimately, whatever they decide they want to believe. All evidence that seems to support their desire will seem conclusive, and all evidence contradicting it will be rationalized away or arbitrarily dismissed. And that's the thing, isn't it? We can use that very statement to dismiss virtually any perspective, because of all the pseudo-scientific bull floating around, from both the past and present. The closest we can ever come to an objective measure of reality is the scientific consensus.[/QUOTE] I understand what you are saying in regards to humanity having dealt with many of these questions in the past. However, what I think you should consider is that some people aren't on the same page and it can be for a myriad of reasons. For example, there are parents who educate their children in a way that distorts reality, and the solution to this is to get them to challenge that opinion. In order to do that, you have to have them reach that conclusion without making them feel bad. (Or, that is at least one way to do it.) And part of that, for me, is saying, "Look, I'm taking all of reality and putting it on the table. Everything is up for debate. Let's debate." If you have any defined constants before you begin you risk the success of your ability to convince the other person. Some people treat that thought as nonsense, but if you and I are correct in that all men and women are equal regardless of race and ethnicity, we should be able to demonstrate that. Sometimes people get frustrated and say, "that's just the way it is", and sometimes that's not enough. Some people do need it laid out for them. That's why I don't shun people immediately and try to engage them.

Yep, guess one of my favorite youtubers just commited career suicide. I've noticed barely any of his youtube collegues are coming to his aid. I've seen Ricepirate arguing Jon is not racist and I've seen Sargon making fun of people for claiming otherwise, but other than them, barely anyone. Not even fucking Ethan. Goes to show you how deep the hole is he dug for himself.

[QUOTE=Benjimon007;51958686]Yep, guess one of my favorite youtubers just commited career suicide. I've noticed barely any of his youtube collegues are coming to his aid. I've seen Ricepirate arguing Jon is not racist and I've seen Sargon making fun of people for claiming otherwise, but other than them, barely anyone. Not even fucking Ethan. Goes to show you how deep the hole is he dug for himself.[/QUOTE] If Ethan was gonna make a video it would happen today I think, since not everyone might have heard of the vods until yesterday [editline]14th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=VenomousBeetle;51958638]7k of his 3 million [editline]14th March 2017[/editline] [url]https://socialblade.com/youtube/user/jontronshow[/url] [editline]14th March 2017[/editline] It's probably not gonna say "Maker Studios" on there for long though[/QUOTE] The graph on that site ends in January

I'm sad now, I like his content but that crap is so counter to my beliefs it's unreal. I mean, what? This seems so out of nowhere.

[QUOTE=KillRay;51958708]If Ethan was gonna make a video it would happen today I think, since not everyone might have heard of the vods until yesterday [editline]14th March 2017[/editline] The graph on that site ends in January[/QUOTE] Ignore the graph look at the actual number counts, that's just some monthly thingamajig, it wouldn't even tell us about last night, and it only shows progression such as the monthly consistency of new subs Edit: Statsheep's count is off by like 100k if you look at the actual youtube channel too. Could be possible statsheep is accurate and he lost and gained around 43k over the course of last night, but I wouldn't know. Edit: You can even see a live feed of it in real time here, he just gained one, lost one, then got another as I was typing this: [url]https://socialblade.com/youtube/user/jontronshow/realtime[/url] Edit: It seems he's constantly losing and gaining subs every few seconds so maybe statsheep just didn't add up the ones he gained back and he really did lose a gross of 50k actual subscribers

[QUOTE=Mr. Someguy;51958543]Genuinely curious, why are animals like the Siberian Tiger and Bengal Tiger considered a subspecies of Tiger, but Humans who also come from different corners of the globe and have minor genetic and cosmetic differences are not?[/QUOTE] Well, the conclusion that race doesn't exist among humans came in the wake of the Human Genome Project, when scientists determined that humans across phenotypes had greater genetic similarities to individuals from other phenotypes than they had to those within their own. This is because of the sheer size and genetic diversity of the human species. Tigers, on the other hand, have not only lived in groups so far apart and distinct for far longer than humans have, but there's virtually no genetic diversity left due to the fact that their species is dying out. There are no more than four thousand tigers left in the wild today. Siberian and Bengal tigers can still interbreed, but their long separation and dwindling numbers have resulted in animals so distinct for their physical differences, that aside from their general body shape and the pattern of their coats they may as well be different feline species.