Jon Tron vs Destiny / 4:21 AM - Zukriuchen: I Stand by JonTron, unironically - General

[QUOTE=KillRay;51960032]Doesn't help that John acted like a baboon, outright denying facts with Destiny would bring them up. The concept of immigrants helping California's economy grow from the analysis of economists was dismissed on the concept of experts being wrong in pollsters for Hillary[/QUOTE] destiny has a really good video about this exact topic from when he was preparing for the lauren southern debate [media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urvF8f3yiqc[/media] around 18~ minutes he starts talking with an economist about the subject

[QUOTE=Vodkavia;51960050]I mean at [I]least [/I]Keemstar is a hypocrite rather than just happily laying in bed with "There's no bias against women in tech" Breitbart or "healthcare is a distant issue to the average working class person" Sargon. You know what I have a hard time telling whose worse tbh.[/QUOTE] how about none of their opinions are worth paying attention to

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51959997]this entire discussion is based on the idea that the white american majority must be preserved he specifically said that even if other races came in and integrated into the culture it would still be a problem because they would enter the gene pool he made several statements about the criminality of blacks and how culture is related TO RACE please, tell me how is this not a racist statement [editline]14th March 2017[/editline] I know that a lot of my posts are coming across as "how dare you disagree with me shitlord", but that really isn't what I'm trying to say I honestly cannot understand how what he said couldn't be construed as racist. He repeatedly came back to the topic of race after Destiny tried to shift the conversation to something else, he made NUMEROUS claims about MULTIPLE racial groups, he SPECIFICALLY mentioned the WHITE majority like I don't understand how he could be more explicitly racist than he was without saying negroids are thieves and mongoloids are good at math[/QUOTE] You got me there, friend. You pointed out that I should watch the video; I haven't, so I can't very well offer a counter-argument (at the very least an informed one). As of now I'm only going off of what bits of it I've seen, but in hindsight that's hardly enough to form a strong opinion. Context is important, so I think I'm gonna go check the full video out. Incidentally, I don't wanna come off as condescending or go off-topic or anything, but can I just say that I really appreciate your tone? There's so much shit-flinging and name-calling when discussing stuff like this on the internet, so it's nice to see someone actually take the time to explain where they're coming from, especially when disagreeing with someone.

[QUOTE=BanthaFodder;51960072]You got me there, friend. You pointed out that I should watch the video; I haven't, so I can't very well offer a counter-argument (at the very least an informed one). As of now I'm only going off of what bits of it I've seen, but I'm definitely curious to watch the whole thing now, since context is obviously very important. Incidentally, I don't wanna come off as condescending or go off-topic or anything, but can I just say that I really appreciate your tone? There's so much shit-flinging and name-calling when discussing stuff like this on the internet, so it's nice to see someone actually take the time to explain where they're coming from, especially when disagreeing with someone.[/QUOTE] Don't compliment me too much. Sometimes I can be an absolute shitter, and there are some people I honestly can't engage with just cause of past baggage, but I really don't want to shit on people who honestly just want to know more and are just expressing what they think based on what they know. The reason I feel strongly about this is that I truly believe all the shit in the past about people being upset at Jon for saying "retard" or whatever was totally bunk, and that this is [I]completely[/I] different.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51959997]this entire discussion is based on the idea that the white american majority must be preserved he specifically said that even if other races came in and integrated into the culture it would still be a problem because they would enter the gene pool he made several statements about the criminality of blacks and how culture is related TO RACE please, tell me how is this not a racist statement [editline]14th March 2017[/editline] I know that a lot of my posts are coming across as "how dare you disagree with me shitlord", but that really isn't what I'm trying to say I honestly cannot understand how what he said couldn't be construed as racist. He repeatedly came back to the topic of race after Destiny tried to shift the conversation to something else, he made NUMEROUS claims about MULTIPLE racial groups, he SPECIFICALLY mentioned the WHITE majority like I don't understand how he could be more explicitly racist than he was without saying negroids are thieves and mongoloids are good at math[/QUOTE] Let's say you have a house, and in this house you are living with 8 other people. Those 8 people are your best friends and are from many different cultural backgrounds and of varying ethnicities. Then 6 of those 8 people are traded out for complete strangers and are people you've never met before, who do not want to follow the rules and stipulations you and the other 8 folks have set for living in the household. Would you like that? Jon's not saying he wants immigrants to shed their cultural identities. He's saying there has to be a line drawn somewhere to preserve national identity. If millions of people suddenly immigrated to Japan, the people of Japan would fully expect them to follow their own cultural norms. How is that a problem? Is it racist to want that? This entire argument is a double edged sword and I can understand both perspectives. I don't think there's an objectively right or wrong here.

[QUOTE=haloguy234;51960109]Let's say you have a house, and in this house you are living with 8 other people. Those 8 people are your best friends and are from many different cultural backgrounds and of varying ethnicities. Then 6 of those 8 people are traded out for complete strangers and are people you've never met before, who do not want to follow the rules and stipulations you and the other 8 folks have set for living in the household. Would you like that? Jon's not saying he wants immigrants to shed their cultural identities. He's saying there has to be a line drawn somewhere to preserve national identity. If millions of people suddenly immigrated to Japan, the people of Japan would fully expect them to follow their own cultural norms. How is that a problem? Is it racist to want that? This entire argument is a double edged sword and I can understand both perspectives. I don't think there's an objectively right or wrong here.[/QUOTE] Okay, the immigration argument is complicated and there's a discussion to be had there. Culture clash and integration and all that is something that we can talk about. That isn't what Jon said. You can't defend his statements by completely changing his argument. He specifically responded to "well what if they integrate into the culture" with "but they'll still enter the gene pool". He is talking [I]specifically[/I] about [I]race.[/I] You're changing his argument into something that is defensible. What he said was [I]not[/I] defensible.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51960102]Don't compliment me too much. Sometimes I can be an absolute shitter, and there are some people I honestly can't engage with just cause of past baggage, but I really don't want to shit on people who honestly just want to know more and are just expressing what they think based on what they know. The reason I feel strongly about this is that I truly believe all the shit in the past about people being upset at Jon for saying "retard" or whatever was totally bunk, [b]and that this is [I]completely[/I] different.[/b][/QUOTE] Exactly why I'm gonna check this out. Going in, I feel like people who aren't racist can definitely say racist shit (or at the very least, shit that is based very much on generalizations), but saying said shit doesn't necessarily make someone [i]a[/i] racist, if that makes any sense. Like, the intent and context behind words are what determines how the person saying them should be perceived (Carlin summed it up better than I ever could, honestly). I still have a hard time believing Jon's an actual racist and not just a guy who sometimes says stupid/unsubstantiated shit, but let's see if that opinion changes.

[QUOTE=Primigenes;51960142]Yeah Jon doesn't want them to shed there national identities. He just doesn't want them in the gene pool He literally said this So yeah 6 of those 8 people are traded out for "complete strangers" and even if they start following the rules, don't try and fuck my sister because I don't want your genes contaminating my lineage. You people who didn't watch the video in question need to stop posting.[/QUOTE] I don't agree at all. If people don't engage they aren't going to learn. Don't tell a sincere person to shut up just because you think their opinion is wrong.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51960131]Okay, the immigration argument is complicated and there's a discussion to be had there. Culture clash and integration and all that is something that we can talk about. That isn't what Jon said. You can't defend his statements by completely changing his argument. He specifically responded to "well what if they integrate into the culture" with "but they'll still enter the gene pool". He is talking [I]specifically[/I] about [I]race.[/I] You're changing his argument into something that is defensible. What he said was [I]not[/I] defensible.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Primigenes;51960142]Yeah Jon doesn't want them to shed there national identities. He just doesn't want them in the gene pool He literally said this So yeah 6 of those 8 people are traded out for "complete strangers" and even if they start following the rules, don't try and fuck my sister because I don't want your genes contaminating my lineage. You people who didn't watch the video in question need to stop posting.[/QUOTE] I'm sorry, I haven't had a chance to watch the video yet but I have taken a good read on the threads posted at the beginning of this thread and didn't see anything about maintaining a gene pool. If he really said that then that's pretty deplorable.

I plan on watching the stream soon but I'm curious to know if jon says anything about women and women's rights; does he mention anything about a disregard for women? I really wished he kept all this to himself...

[QUOTE=haloguy234;51960191]I'm sorry, I haven't had a chance to watch the video yet but I have taken a good read on the threads posted at the beginning of this thread and didn't see anything about maintaining a gene pool. If he really said that then that's pretty deplorable.[/QUOTE] [url]https://clips.twitch.tv/IncredulousSpikyCockroachDendiFace[/url] I would encourage you to view the entire debate so you can contextualize what he says, but I do think it's worth pointing out how this entire discussion is about jontron saying that the white majority must be preserved, and everything he says is in support of that foundation.

[QUOTE=Vodkavia;51960050]I mean at [I]least [/I]Keemstar is a hypocrite rather than just happily laying in bed with "There's no bias against women in tech" Breitbart or "healthcare is a distant issue to the average working class person" Sargon. You know what I have a hard time telling whose worse tbh.[/QUOTE] Keemstar is a much worse person to be around but Sargon smears a lot more people.

[QUOTE=Pen Straw;51960200]I plan on watching the stream soon but I'm curious to know if jon says anything about women and women's rights; does he mention anything about a disregard for women? I really wished he kept all this to himself...[/QUOTE] He didn't. I kinda hope he never does. [editline]14th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Aredbomb;51960211]Keemstar is a much worse person to be around but Sargon smears a lot more people.[/QUOTE] Sargon is a fucking brain dead hypocrite who betrayed every ideal he ever claimed to have. I can't think of a person who disgusts me more.

[QUOTE=RikohZX;51957671]I want to see how this unfolds and whether he'll clean up his act, react negatively or otherwise, rather than just go "oh okay jontron's racist, let's throw him under the bus" After all, a certain Hulkster was outed and his entire career wiped because of discriminatory comments on a sex tape and everyone just out-and-out lavished him with support because he was taking on Gawker and their shitfest of clickbait and a complete lack of ethics in their journalism[/QUOTE] To be fair that was a really dark time in Hulk Hogan's life. Also his racist comments were leaked long after he said them. IIRC he was just very frustrated at his daughter and had nothing against the black guy she was dating. He didn't go on a talkshow about how black people inherently commit more crime than whites.

[QUOTE=Primigenes;51960214]What? This is what I said I'm not telling them to stop because they have a shit opinion or opinion I find disagreeable. I'm telling him to stop because he's posting like someone who didn't watch the video and is clearly misconstruing what Jon said. Why post in any thread in this entire section without watching the video. And yeah I see what you're saying but at the same time I don't because it doesn't work in the context I'm speaking of. He quoted your post specifically talking about something Jon himself stated only to ignore it and come up with something else entirely. Why? Because he most likely didn't watch the video since it's 2 hours long. And yes that's an assumption but I see no other explanation for people who make claims that seem to contradict what has actually happened in the debate. I also find the concept of clicking the video you're discussing before you post to be such a simple concept that this shouldn't be happening. It's not like I generally care that much if someone watched the video and makes a response based on the whole 2 hours regardless of their opinion. If this were any other thread in the section I'd assume he didn't watch the video either and would say the same thing[/QUOTE] I didn't watch it yet because I'm at work...I assumed the reddit threads linked in the first page was a sufficient summary of his points. Clearly they were not.

[QUOTE=Primigenes;51960214]What? This is what I said I'm not telling them to stop because they have a shit opinion or opinion I find disagreeable. I'm telling him to stop because he's posting like someone who didn't watch the video and is clearly misconstruing what Jon said. Why post in any thread in this entire section without watching the video. And yeah I see what you're saying but at the same time I don't because it doesn't work in the context I'm speaking of. He quoted your post specifically talking about something Jon himself stated only to ignore it and come up with something else entirely. Why? Because he most likely didn't watch the video since it's 2 hours long. And yes that's an assumption but I see no other explanation for people who make claims that seem to contradict what has actually happened in the debate. I also find the concept of clicking the video you're discussing before you post to be such a simple concept that this shouldn't be happening. It's not like I generally care that much if someone watched the video and makes a response based on the whole 2 hours regardless of their opinion. If this were any other thread in the section I'd assume he didn't watch the video either and would say the same thing[/QUOTE] If someone repeatedly refuses to listen to what you say, then sure. But to just come out at someone with "stop posting" seems needlessly hostile to me. A lot of people are just hearing about this shit, you have to be a little more understanding than that. Like yeah, everything would be great if everyone watched the two hour video before saying anything, but people just don't work that way, dude.

[QUOTE=Pen Straw;51960200]I plan on watching the stream soon but I'm curious to know if jon says anything about women and women's rights; does he mention anything about a disregard for women? I really wished he kept all this to himself...[/QUOTE] Given whom he's gotten himself involved with I wouldn't suggest getting your hopes up.

Jon doesn't really comes off as hateful, just uninformed and contentious about things he doesn't understand. These 'whites are becoming a minority in The US and that's bad because ethnic homogeneity equals more social trust' talking points are popular with Far-righters because there is a kernel of truth and legitimate concern to them. What actual bigots do is exaggerate these points to apocalyptic levels in attempts to shift the discussion further right, inciting average people to adopt their extreme views. The thing I think Jon should concede is that there is nothing that can be done politically to address these things without implementing actual racist policies and likely inflicting more human suffering than you'd get with more moderate/liberal ones. Hopefully he stops getting into shit on twitter and stays away from these political "debates" long enough to see that he's probably going on some faulty assumptions. Rather than just becoming more entrenched in his ~red pilled~ 'us vs them' views.

It's what baffles me, I went in with an otherwise good impression of jon, I knew his black humor was pretty taboo but it always made me chuckle, but the further I get into this stream the more baffling his mindset is. Every time he's asked to explain his vaguely weird and borderline racist points he just laughs and goes "COME ON" as if it should be obvious what he means. He's obviously not hateful or trying to discriminate but he seems genuinely unaware of the flaws in the things he's saying.

Cool, I like Jontron a lot more now

Always knew Jontron was a down to earth fellow! [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Shitpost - Baiting" - Reagy))[/highlight] [highlight](User was banned for this post ("" - Reagy))[/highlight] [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Extended" - Reagy))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=Slim Charles;51952296]Why's he need to shut up though? irregardless of if his points are good or even correct I think everyone has a right to voice their political opinion. And I mean listening to the stream his views really aren't that extreme, not saying I agree with them however they're pretty common-place honestly. Plenty of white friends of mine definitely have this perception of feeling somewhat blamed for things they themselves personally didn't do. And as an outsider to that whole commotion I can definitely see some reasons in why they think that. And honestly to me it feels like a lot of it is; this Destiny guy clearly loves a good debate and has practiced a fair amount where as Jontron has half-heated views and is kind of putting himself into positions of saying stuff I don't think he fully comprehends what it actually means.[/QUOTE] Expressing opinions can be an issue. I know what I'm about to say probably isn't the most popular view, but I think it's important. There's this weird belief that expressing an opinion and acting on that opinion are different things. The issue is, when you express an opinion publicly, there are people out there who are going to agree with you. Say somebody who doesn't support women's rights stands up and shouts about it. A handful of people are going to agree with that person and, because they are reminded that there are [I]others who share the same view[/I], they're going to feel more justified in holding their view. They feel less like they're not fitting-in with society, because there are now more people in society that they can relate to when it comes to their shitty views. So you have shitty views being reinforced, purely through the expression of those views. The expression is also gonna sway people who are on the fence, or who's opinions on the issue are not fully formed. They'll see people they [I]admire[/I] expressing a shitty view. Because of the way we work, the people we admire for their creative works are more trusted than others - it's why shitty celebrities with no scientific background can convince the public to be anti-vaxxers. It's also why celebrities can convince us to do GOOD THINGS too, like donate to causes or do volunteer work. When you're in the public eye (and with 3+ million subscribers, I'd say Jon is in the public eye), you have a responsibility to behave in a way that helps, rather than hinders, society. Expressing shitty opinions doesn't help. If his opinions are not fully formed or he's just uninformed or bad at explaining (which could be some or all of the issue, I don't know enough about this incident yet), then he should not be expressing them until he's thought about them longer and figured out to express them without sounding like he's being shitty.

I feel like Jon needs to say something soon before this gets out of hand.

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/AOah6AW.png[/IMG] Petition to make :JonTronCareer: an emoticon

Well, I also think part of the problem is he did the equivalent of speaking into a megaphone. If this were more "behind the scenes" discussion I don't think it would have been as bad. It would have still been bad, but it wouldn't have been as bad. However, he did this in a public stream after both tweeting a ton about his political beliefs and also claiming that he's being dragged into the political discussion due to its need of reason. Those things compound for me and make an especially unsavory flavor.

[QUOTE=Inspector N;51960421]Cool, I like Jontron a lot more now[/QUOTE] Going by your post history I think it's safe to say you're not kidding and that no one should take you seriously.

[QUOTE=jimbobjoe1234;51960464]I feel like Jon needs to say something soon before this gets out of hand.[/QUOTE] What can he really say here? "haha it was all a goof guys :~~)" and look like a total fucking weenie? "it was just playing devils echvocate" and look like a fucking spanner? "white pride worldwide" and just solidify everything he claimed? He really, really fucked up. And thus far doesn't seem to have shown a hint of remorse or will to actually learn about these topics from reputable sources.

[QUOTE=hexpunK;51960523]What can he really say here? "haha it was all a goof guys :~~)" and look like a total fucking weenie? "it was just playing devils echvocate" and look like a fucking spanner? "white pride worldwide" and just solidify everything he claimed? He really, really fucked up. And thus far doesn't seem to have shown a hint of remorse or will to actually learn about these topics from reputable sources.[/QUOTE] There's still a way out of this, and it's actually have a conversation and reasonable debate about it. No mocking, no hahahas, no givens.

Can someone point me out to some reputable sources?

hey remember when someone was posting this guy's videos [media]https://twitter.com/OmniDestiny/status/841757590405144576[/media] [media]https://twitter.com/OmniDestiny/status/841757930420637696[/media] what an enlightened intellectual