Jon Tron vs Destiny / 4:21 AM - Zukriuchen: I Stand by JonTron, unironically - General

I really wish we were absolutely and undeniably aware of Jon getting heavily influenced by the alt-right ideology and were able to convince him to back down from that dangerous mindset before it was too late. We saw hints of that with Jon streaming conversations with Sargon and and even with his interview with Breitbart, but people on here like myself were giving him a benefit of the doubt and had just thought that he was just trying to get everyone's perspective without getting swayed too much by them or some shit like that. At this point, it seems like he bought into the more extreme aspects of the ideology for some weird ass reason even though he was probably a sane individual shortly before. I don't fucking know, man. Shit's crazy.

[QUOTE=Primigenes;51961857]Assuming the absolute worst? All I'm doing is going by what Jon said. By what other metrics should I judge Jon besides his actions and statements? How is saying something that has a very specific implication in a very specific context a mistake? If it was a mistake why didn't he rectify it? It's not like Jon was debating by himself with no other party there to usher advice. I have no idea why I should be lending special service to Jon when so many more deserving people have been denied such a request. See other people get called out for saying the N word or making unpleasant jokes, but Jon gets called out for engaging in a 2 hour debate and making himself look like a racist/white nationalist. Surprising that I'm supposed to be nice to Jon for having one of the most appropriate "Get fucked" moments of any popular figure in the media.[/QUOTE] I got my bar for condeming people without trying to understand why they said it first pretty low. Other people just attack others at first sight or even if there are indications of it not being genuine beliefs. That being said, he's as seen a terrible debater and shouldn't ever debate like that. He's using arguments and "facts" told to him by others, not impartial facts and stats. We should wait on him to clarify where he stands before going full "he's a white nationalist who hates everyone non-white". That's all i'm saying. The middle ground for criticizing him is non-existent right now.

[QUOTE=Skerion;51961955]I really wish we were absolutely and undeniably aware of Jon getting heavily influenced by the alt-right ideology and were able to convince him to back down from that dangerous mindset before it was too late. We saw hints of that with Jon streaming conversations with Sargon and and even with his interview with Breitbart, but people on here like myself were giving him a benefit of the doubt and had just thought that he was just trying to get everyone's perspective without getting swayed too much by them or some shit like that. At this point, it seems like he bought into the more extreme aspects of the ideology for some weird ass reason even though he was probably a sane individual shortly before. I don't fucking know, man. Shit's crazy.[/QUOTE] This timeline is terrible. :frown:

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51961920]why would he have to stop saying "non-whites are fine at times"? plenty of neo nazis who want to create a fucking white ethno state utopia would say the exact same thing, saying that doesn't mean anything[/QUOTE] At times being Destiny's question of "Would you accept a 100 million brown people if they integrated?", a real racist would always say no to that. Because they still don't like brown people.

the funniest thing about naked ape digging up that old shit on destiny is that when destiny riled up SRS feathers a few years ago they tried to do the exact same thing, digging up some old shit in his past to smear him. now the exact political opposites of SRS are doing the same. If that isn't proof of horseshoe theory i don't know what is.

I don't know, someone could do a Derek Black (Basically, a jewish student invited him over to dinner and was having conversations, and then Derek gradually stopped being a white nationalist) or something similar on JonTron, and [i]maybe[/i] it might be easier since this weird "protect the genepool" mindset that Jon now seems to have is probably a recent development. Then again, it seemed like Derek was already open to other ideas while Jon sounds like he's already been stubbornly convinced with what he's been told. Like I said, I don't fucking know. Seriously though, how does somebody go from regular and mostly sane to someone who says "protect the genepool"? Was this transition seriously a gradual knee-jerk reaction to the people freaking out about his one-time use of the word "retarded"?

anyone remember how there was some sort of small group of people (based mainly on tumblr) who have been trying to boycott jontron's content for years because he's supposedly a piece of shit? it was over small things at the time like him saying 'retard' or off colour jokes he made on twitter were they right about him all along, or did the over-the-top backlash and bullshit he faced over the years only push him further down the opposite path towards full-blown anti-sjw/alt right/racist viewpoints?

[QUOTE=krail9;51962098]anyone remember how there was some sort of small group of people (based mainly on tumblr) who have been trying to boycott jontron's content for years because he's supposedly a piece of shit? it was over small things at the time like him saying 'retard' or off colour jokes he made on twitter were they right about him all along, or did the over-the-top backlash and bullshit he faced over the years only push him further down the opposite path towards full-blown anti-sjw/alt right/racist viewpoints?[/QUOTE] Probably the latter, if even that. It feels less like he was pushed and more like he did so on his own whim, but what do I know?

[QUOTE=krail9;51962098]anyone remember how there was some sort of small group of people (based mainly on tumblr) who have been trying to boycott jontron's content for years because he's supposedly a piece of shit? it was over small things at the time like him saying 'retard' or off colour jokes he made on twitter were they right about him all along, or did the over-the-top backlash and bullshit he faced over the years only push him further down the opposite path towards full-blown anti-sjw/alt right/racist viewpoints?[/QUOTE] The latter. Jon never showed any signs of being like this until recently.

[QUOTE=Primigenes;51962048]Indication of his belief not being genuine? You mean you grasping at straws to defend Jon based on something that no one can possibly prove? And condemning people? Yeah I do condemn/criticize/denounce/chastise Jon for what he said. Yes, those words are all synonyms amigo. You know just because I condemn someone doesn't mean I can't try to understand the motive or reasoning behind their actions. It's not like I can't do both I also don't know why I should wait to criticize him. It's not like he didn't say what he had to in a 2 hour long debate. And him being a good debater wouldn't change what exactly he tried to argue. Yeah he got a graph from other people, that's cool. He also said some weird shit about contaminating gene pools. I don't know how good debating skills would do anything besides make him state his opinions in a more subtle manner. If people are calling him a white nationalist it's because he sounded like one. Do I think he hates "non-whites"? I honestly don't care, but if people feel that way it's probably because he sounded like someone who would rather not have non whites in his country. He walked like a duck, talked like a duck, and now he's being roasted like a duck. If he wants to clarify then let him. That's literally up to him and no one else to do. The "middle ground" whatever that you're talking about does exist. You just don't like whats being said in the critiques. You're giving Jon a luxury that many don't even get to think of when they fuck up in less severe ways then he and it's showing your bias through every post.[/QUOTE] And you're condemning him as a horrible person for things than no one can know for sure how genuinely he believes them. Those words are not complete synonyms. He deserves criticism, to a limit, if he comes back and is still unwavered in his beliefs, then go ahead, I won't blame you for that. What he tried to argue isn't clear because, at one point it's about culture and integration, then it's about conspiracy theories and extremely inaccurate facts. If you don't know what someone is talking about, maybe one should ease down on the condemnation. Sounding like a white nationalist and being a white nationalist are different things. You actually need to advocate it, not just sound like it. I still want to know what actions he's taken that could be considered white nationalist/racist. Has he actually harmed someone directly? I don't like how everyone is condemning rather waiting on him to clarify without letting the alt-right arguments speak for him. [QUOTE]I don't know why you're doing this. Really, there comes a point in time where I don't know if replying to someone is a waste of time or if I'm being a dick by replying. I'm pretty sure immediately after that Jon says something along the lines of "Yeah, but then they'd get into the gene pool" :thinking:[/QUOTE] I'm doing it because no one else is really willing to see why he shouldn't just be condemned to the fullest extent. Like I have said, the best thing for him and all of us is if he clarifies and apologize for the more terrible stuff he said.

[QUOTE=Camdude90;51962010]the funniest thing about naked ape digging up that old shit on destiny is that when destiny riled up SRS feathers a few years ago they tried to do the exact same thing, digging up some old shit in his past to smear him. now the exact political opposites of SRS are doing the same. If that isn't proof of horseshoe theory i don't know what is.[/QUOTE] I don't think there was much of a difference between stalinism and fascism so yeah sure.

[QUOTE=krail9;51962098]anyone remember how there was some sort of small group of people (based mainly on tumblr) who have been trying to boycott jontron's content for years because he's supposedly a piece of shit? it was over small things at the time like him saying 'retard' or off colour jokes he made on twitter were they right about him all along, or did the over-the-top backlash and bullshit he faced over the years only push him further down the opposite path towards full-blown anti-sjw/alt right/racist viewpoints?[/QUOTE] That is not an excuse for his terrible opinions.

[QUOTE=Skerion;51961955]I really wish we were absolutely and undeniably aware of Jon getting heavily influenced by the alt-right ideology and were able to convince him to back down from that dangerous mindset before it was too late. We saw hints of that with Jon streaming conversations with Sargon and and even with his interview with Breitbart, but people on here like myself were giving him a benefit of the doubt and had just thought that he was just trying to get everyone's perspective without getting swayed too much by them or some shit like that. At this point, it seems like he bought into the more extreme aspects of the ideology for some weird ass reason even though he was probably a sane individual shortly before. I don't fucking know, man. Shit's crazy.[/QUOTE] Funny, if you ask me, "Too Late" was when he started doing interviews with Sargon and Breitbart, not the "first warning signs". Sargon and Breitbart are the Literal Fucking Definition of the Deep End.

[QUOTE=certified;51962210]Funny, if you ask me, "Too Late" was when he started doing interviews with Sargon and Breitbart, not the "first warning signs". Sargon and Breitbart are the Literal Fucking Definition of the Deep End.[/QUOTE] Phillip DeFranco and Boogie were on a livestreamed group chat with Sargon and Jon. Is it too late for them too? You have to talk to people you don't like or you're just stuck with only those agreeing with you and never get to see the flaws in your own beliefs.

[QUOTE=krail9;51962098]anyone remember how there was some sort of small group of people (based mainly on tumblr) who have been trying to boycott jontron's content for years because he's supposedly a piece of shit? it was over small things at the time like him saying 'retard' or off colour jokes he made on twitter were they right about him all along, or did the over-the-top backlash and bullshit he faced over the years only push him further down the opposite path towards full-blown anti-sjw/alt right/racist viewpoints?[/QUOTE] Probably a combination of both regarding the Twitter jokes, the whole "retard" thing was just silly. It's pretty clear that pushback from a very vocal and toxic element of the left pushed him towards alt-right and "classical liberal" viewpoints. I hate to bring up Gamergate again but it's sort of like how many people got the impression it was an alt-right movement because the only journalists and press willing to cover it honestly happened to be ones on the right, even if they were rags like Breitbart and opportunistic hyena's like Milo. It doesn't excuse Jontrons viewpoints, but it does offer insight into how someone can go from at least an outward appearance of moderation to talking about white nationalism.

[QUOTE=Skerion;51962070]I don't know, someone could do a Derek Black (Basically, a jewish student invited him over to dinner and was having conversations, and then Derek gradually stopped being a white supremacist) or something similar on JonTron, and [i]maybe[/i] it might be easier since this weird "protect the genepool" mindset that Jon now seems to have is probably a recent development. Then again, it seemed like Derek was already open to other ideas while Jon sounds like he's already been stubbornly convinced with what he's been told. Like I said, I don't fucking know. Seriously though, how does somebody go from regular and mostly sane to someone who says "protect the genepool"? Was this transition seriously a gradual knee-jerk reaction to the people freaking out about his one-time use of the word "retarded"?[/QUOTE] Being anti-SJW doesn't force any specific beliefs upon anyone, but it does tend to make people more open to conspiracy theories, propaganda, and fearmongering, and we already know that Jon trusts at least one guy who peddles all three of those things. There's a pretty good chance his bad experience with the "don't say retarded" people only inspired him to avoid people like them, and from there he just kind of drifted towards all the bad shit he's gotten involved in since then.

[QUOTE=Lambeth;51962207]That is not an excuse for his terrible opinions.[/QUOTE] Why bring this up when he didn't really say that? There's nothing wrong with speculating.

[QUOTE=RB33;51962225]Phillip DeFranco and Boogie were on a livestreamed group chat with Sargon and Jon. Is it too late for them too? You have to talk to people you don't like or you're just stuck with only those agreeing with you and never get to see the flaws in your own beliefs.[/QUOTE] It's a bit more than not liking them and more in them being dangerously ignorant of repercussions of falling off the deep end such as it being a metaphorical crime to be born with a different factor than themselves.

[QUOTE=krail9;51962098]anyone remember how there was some sort of small group of people (based mainly on tumblr) who have been trying to boycott jontron's content for years because he's supposedly a piece of shit? it was over small things at the time like him saying 'retard' or off colour jokes he made on twitter were they right about him all along, or did the over-the-top backlash and bullshit he faced over the years only push him further down the opposite path towards full-blown anti-sjw/alt right/racist viewpoints?[/QUOTE] I feel like the latter, personally. Like they kept shitting on him for stupid crap and he heard the anti-sjw or whatever people saying "People are too sensitive, it's bullshit, we know how it is" but then he slowly got more entrenched and listened to what they had to say and now this is it. Of course I don't know jontron personally (obviously :v: ) and I haven't been following him but that's just what I'm thinking from all this.

[QUOTE=AnnieOakley;51962274]It's a bit more than not liking them and more in them being dangerously ignorant of repercussions of falling off the deep end such as it being a metaphorical crime to be born with a different factor than themselves.[/QUOTE] Not talking to them and letting them fall deeper into the alt-right hole isn't a better option.

[QUOTE=BanthaFodder;51959649]It honestly sounds like both of them had pretty understandable views that were just relayed incredibly poorly and blown way out of proportion by the internet outrage machine after being reduced to soundbites that make either side sound like a lunatic in order to appeal to a specific audience. So business as usual.[/QUOTE] idk man, destiny uploaded the full debate in it's entirety to his youtube channel not long after it happened while people like sargon and naked ape are posting 10 second clips of destiny saying things out of context to make him look dumb. only seems like one side is doing the soundbite thing

Imagine what Jon's friends must be going through. They must be getting constantly harassed about this. Gonna be real sad if it gets to the point where people have to break away from Jon just to keep their own careers alive. At the same time I wouldn't blame them either, this must be terrible for all involved to deal with.

[QUOTE=krail9;51962098]anyone remember how there was some sort of small group of people (based mainly on tumblr) who have been trying to boycott jontron's content for years because he's supposedly a piece of shit? it was over small things at the time like him saying 'retard' or off colour jokes he made on twitter [/quote] [Media]https://twitter.com/neilcic/status/502533414990647297[/media] [Media]https://twitter.com/neilcic/status/496500492319879168[/media] I always thought him standing up to "censorship" over the retard thing was balogna personally. He's extremely stubborn and rude, if you were to base your opinion of him based on Twitter alone, outside his video personality. [Quote]were they right about him all along, or did the over-the-top backlash and bullshit he faced over the years only push him further down the opposite path towards full-blown anti-sjw/alt right/racist viewpoints?[/QUOTE] I think the ones who supported him no matter what he did were responsible more. He built an echo chamber of support and often the things he said fell to one side more than another. "Standing up to sjws" all the time has shown the path it leads others.

[QUOTE=jimbobjoe1234;51962411]Imagine what Jon's friends must be going through. They must be getting constantly harassed about this. Gonna be real sad if it gets to the point where people have to break away from Jon just to keep their own careers alive. At the same time I wouldn't blame them either, this must be terrible for all involved to deal with.[/QUOTE] PBG and DYKG have apparently lost subscribers and gotten hate mail and threats over this, despite PBG actually being openly outspoken [I]against[/I] Jon, their friendship having ended a long time ago over something unrelated, and PBG no longer using the NormalBoots brand. Anyone with Normalboots affiliation past or present is getting shit, even though as far as I can tell Normalboots is dead.

[QUOTE=jimbobjoe1234;51962411]Imagine what Jon's friends must be going through. They must be getting constantly harassed about this. Gonna be real sad if it gets to the point where people have to break away from Jon just to keep their own careers alive. At the same time I wouldn't blame them either, this must be terrible for all involved to deal with.[/QUOTE] I had the mental image of Jacques walking out the door with a hat and suitcase, and then I made myself sad.

[QUOTE=Lambeth;51962207]That is not an excuse for his terrible opinions.[/QUOTE] agreed completely. but as cathartic as it is to lambaste and shoot down someone who rightfully deserves it, doing so is not going to help anyone in the long run the best thing we can hope for is for jon to realise the folly of his opinions, make a [I]sincere[/I] apology and try to turn a new leaf. the only other way this is going to end is him either retreating further into an alt-right echo chamber, or forced to make a half-assed apology and keep those hurtful opinions private, without actually bettering himself I think jon is emblematic the biggest current challenge with racism - many many ordinary people, who believe themselves moderate, good people, actually hold damaging racist or sexist opinions, which are drawn from ignorance and fear rather than malice. the thing about the internet is that anyone can say anything, but people can also choose exactly who they do and don't hear. civil discourse is the only way to get through to people [editline]15th March 2017[/editline] makes it hard when he's being such a dick though :(

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51960591]hey remember when someone was posting this guy's videos Loading Tweet... [URL]https://twitter.com/OmniDestiny/status/841757590405144576[/URL] Loading Tweet... [URL]https://twitter.com/OmniDestiny/status/841757930420637696[/URL] what an enlightened intellectual[/QUOTE] I fucking love that Ape got so righteously ass-blasted into space that he had to go dig up some desperate petty shit like the upset child he is.

[QUOTE=KillRay;51961548][Media]https://twitter.com/OmniDestiny/status/841786728784515072[/media] [Media]https://twitter.com/OmniDestiny/status/841786871105609729[/media] Sargon continues to be a shithead[/QUOTE] Wait how is Sargon being a shithead? Didn't he just cut out some things that Destiny said and made videos out of those snippets? Isn't it exactly what everyone is doing to JonTron now? Or did I miss something?

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;51962968]Wait how is Sargon being a shithead? Didn't he just cut out some things that Destiny said and made videos out of those snippets? Isn't it exactly what everyone is doing to JonTron now? Or did I miss something?[/QUOTE] he posted a clip of destiny saying that california both has the most immigration in the country and has the strongest economy with the title "DESTINY THINKS MEXICANS RUN SILICON VALLEY" he can fuck off and die

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51962990]he posted a clip of destiny saying that california both has the most immigration in the country and has the strongest economy with the title "DESTINY THINKS MEXICANS RUN SILICON VALLEY" he can fuck off and die[/QUOTE] The conversation went like this actually [quote]Destiny-Why is the state of California the 6th strongest economy in the world when they deal with more immigrants than any other state, how is this possible? JonTron- Because all the industry is t here? I don't know. What's your point? Destiny- [B]Maybe the supply of labor helped the state grow a little bit?[/B][/quote] So he is saying that there's a connection between Californian productivity and immigrants no? And the core pillar of Californian economy is the silicon valley. He is making it look like the state of California has great economy thanks to the labor that the immigrants are supplying. Like Jon has no ground to stand on, the first question by Destiny was great. It's the second one that Sargon went after. Californian economy isn't great because of immigrants.