Jon Tron vs Destiny / 4:21 AM - Zukriuchen: I Stand by JonTron, unironically - General

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;51963052]The conversation went like this actually So he is saying that there's a connection between Californian productivity and immigrants no? And the core pillar of Californian economy is the silicon valley. He is making it look like the state of California has great economy thanks to the labor that the immigrants are supplying. Like Jon has no ground to stand on, the first question by Destiny was great. But Californian economy isn't great because of immigrants.[/QUOTE] Give me a fucking break. Silicon valley is not the sole source of wealth for all of California. Fucking take two seconds out of your life to fact check this shit. [img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/Gross_Domestic_Product_of_California_2008_(millions_of_current_dollars).svg/350px-Gross_Domestic_Product_of_California_2008_(millions_of_current_dollars).svg.png[/img] Don't you fucking dare try to justify this inane fucking bullshit. You fucking know that title is a pile of shit, and so did he.

There's a whole lot of fucking going on around here and it is [i]beautiful[/i]. Still, as had been said previously, sad to see someone i'd get so stoked for new content from fall so far so fast.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51963064]Give me a fucking break. Silicon valley is not the sole source of wealth for all of California. Fucking take two seconds out of your life to fact check this shit. [img]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/Gross_Domestic_Product_of_California_2008_(millions_of_current_dollars).svg/350px-Gross_Domestic_Product_of_California_2008_(millions_of_current_dollars).svg.png[/img] Don't you fucking dare try to justify this inane fucking bullshit. You fucking know that title is a pile of shit, and so did he.[/QUOTE] Fuck fuck shit fuck shit. Calm the fuck down. I know it's not a sole source of wealth, that's not the argument. Destiny was making an argument with the second question that the Californian economy is great [U]because[/U] of immigrants. It's not the sole reason why Californian economy is great, just like silicon valley isn't the sole reason why Californian economy is great. [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Calm down" - ~Kiwi~v2))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;51963123]Fuck fuck shit fuck shit. Calm the fuck down. I know it's not a sole source of wealth, that's not the argument. Destiny was making an argument with the second question that the Californian economy is great [U]because[/U] of immigrants. It's not the sole reason why Californian economy is great, just like silicon valley isn't the sole reason why Californian economy is great.[/QUOTE] maybe if you had actually watched the clip in context and heard his argument you wouldn't have been lead to believe that his argument is that california's economy is great solely because of immigrants good thing you aren't disagreeing with me that sargon's title was fucking completely and obviously wrong tho

[QUOTE=Mr Kotov;51961901]As much as Jon has fucked this up, I don't think people should feel bad about consuming his content.[/QUOTE] As long as his politics and content are separate, there shouldn't be a problem. But if people are actually boycotting any future non-political content they need to grow up lmfao

[QUOTE=Tetsmega;51963339]As long as his politics and content are separate, there shouldn't be a problem. But if people are actually boycotting any future non-political content they need to grow up lmfao[/QUOTE] Yeah we should all just complain about it on the internet instead Seriously if people don't want to watch his content after that's their right, and its not childish either - it's just not feeling comfortable contributing to the upkeep of an institution they don't agree with. It's not like Jontron is the fourth estate or anything. We're not losing a bastion of free society by unsubbing I don't agree with Jontron's views and as a result I'm just going to do something else instead of watching the one 15 minute video he releases every 6 months. Does that make me a child? No, it makes me a person who would rather utilise my time doing something I enjoy and don't feel morally at odds with

[QUOTE=Tetsmega;51963339]As long as his politics and content are separate, there shouldn't be a problem. But if people are actually boycotting any future non-political content they need to grow up lmfao[/QUOTE] The thing is he's coming out with all this stuff on his social media outlets, and at some point it becomes difficult separating the content from the person. And who can blame anyone who gets distracted with all of this? My cousin's black, and when he heard about this he winced. I don't think he's at fault for not wanting to watch someone who doesn't believe in not just some of his struggles but any of his struggles while also believing that he's more than likely a criminal. Does my cousin just need to grow up, or does it make sense that watching JonTron is now awkward and hard to pay attention to? I'm most likely going to unsubscribe until he does anything to fix what was said, but outside of that and talking about it here on a meaningless forum that's about it. I don't think it's the end of the world, just that he's kind of a dick.

[QUOTE=killerteacup;51963374]Yeah we should all just complain about it on the internet instead Seriously if people don't want to watch his content after that's their right, and its not childish either - it's just not feeling comfortable contributing to the upkeep of an institution they don't agree with. It's not like Jontron is the fourth estate or anything. We're not losing a bastion of free society by unsubbing I don't agree with Jontron's views and as a result I'm just going to do something else instead of watching the one 15 minute video he releases every 6 months. Does that make me a child? No, it makes me a person who would rather utilise my time doing something I enjoy and don't feel morally at odds with[/QUOTE] Sounds really petty. MaxofS2D had shit opinions and probably banned some people here over bullshit politics. But it'd be unfair to never give games a chance just because he worked on them. People need to separate the artist from their works. Especially when they make the effort to separate their politics from their content.

If a guy runs a pub and serves good food and cold drinks but on his off days goes out into the street and preaches racist shit I feel like I am justified in not going to his pub. Why is it that when the person in question is a film director/videogame maker/reviewer people jump out of the woodwork to call that stupid and hypocritical?

[QUOTE=kittykaty;51961090][img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C63LbggU8AEPvae.jpg:large[/img][/QUOTE] god bless him but destiny can look so weird sometimes haha. his head is so big compared to his body it's like he's a 5'7 overgrown kid

[QUOTE=Tetsmega;51963421]Sounds really petty. MaxofS2D had shit opinions and probably banned some people here over bullshit politics. [B]But it'd be unfair to never give games a chance [/B]just because he worked on them. People need to separate the artist from their works. Especially when they make the effort to separate their politics from their content.[/QUOTE] Who is that unfair to? MaxofS2D? Because if so I don't see the problem here.

[QUOTE=Tetsmega;51963421]Sounds really petty. MaxofS2D had shit opinions and probably banned some people here over bullshit politics. But it'd be unfair to never give games a chance just because he worked on them. People need to separate the artist from their works. Especially when they make the effort to separate their politics from their content.[/QUOTE] still dont rlly wanna support a dude who said some pretty awful things about ppl like me & my family my dude its p simple like its easy to grasp

[QUOTE=Tetsmega;51963339]As long as his politics and content are separate, there shouldn't be a problem. But if people are actually boycotting any future non-political content they need to grow up lmfao[/QUOTE] He builds up legitimacy and credibility from his online precense and gaming stuff then that legitimacy/credibility is incorrectly applied to his political views. I certainly wouldn't want my kids (if I had any) watching him for the fear that they might this his political views hold water. They might adopt his dog whistle bs or go full "they're polluting the gene pool". Not saying he should lose his job but he should choose between being an idiot political commentator and an entertainer. Being both means people (including young impressionable people without critical thinking capacity) go for the games and come out with the nutty racist ass politics. You get racist/dog whistle memes like "youtube/google/people won't hire you because you're white" it's lies propagated by people like him and only contributes toward actual racism.

[QUOTE=doomkiwi;51963428]Who is that unfair to? MaxofS2D? Because if so I don't see the problem here.[/QUOTE] To the product itself. If the product does not represent a political statement, it's unfair to view it as such.

[QUOTE=Tetsmega;51963440]To the product itself. If the product does not represent a political statement, it's unfair to view it as such.[/QUOTE] Why the fuck does it matter if it's unfair to the product?! The product doesn't have feelings. The product doesn't have a sense of moral justice! It's an inanimate object produced for consumption!

[QUOTE=Tetsmega;51963421]Sounds really petty. MaxofS2D had shit opinions and probably banned some people here over bullshit politics. But it'd be unfair to never give games a chance just because he worked on them. People need to separate the artist from their works. Especially when they make the effort to separate their politics from their content.[/QUOTE] That's sometimes difficult to do when you actually see the creator. Because what they said/did will always be at the back on your mind. And it'll be difficult to see them any differently.

[QUOTE=mchapra;51963430]still dont rlly wanna support a dude who said some pretty awful things about ppl like me & my family my dude its p simple like its easy to grasp[/QUOTE] That's a fair point. If you feel your identity or existence is being attacked, it's normal to refrain from those exposures. [editline]15th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=doomkiwi;51963442]Why the fuck does it matter if it's unfair to the product?! The product doesn't have feelings. The product doesn't have a sense of moral justice! It's an inanimate object produced for consumption![/QUOTE] Uh yeah that's the point. It's an inanimated object. Makinga a predisposed judgement is an unfair judgement. I don't get where you're getting all this feeling and sapient object stuff.

[QUOTE=Tetsmega;51963450]That's a fair point. If you feel your identity or existence is being attacked, it's normal to refrain from those exposures. [editline]15th March 2017[/editline] Uh yeah that's the point. It's an inanimated object. Makinga a predisposed judgement is an unfair judgement. I don't get where you're getting all this feeling and sapient object stuff.[/QUOTE] The point is that the object doesn't care that I'm buying, but you know who does? The asshole behind it who gets the money. What's it matter if I'm being unfair to the object? What is objectively wrong about not buying a well done game if the person who benefits from it is a cockhole? Is it not my right to tell the guy behind it to stuff it? Why does the fact that someone put out something mean I should ignore what the guy says and give him money?

[QUOTE=doomkiwi;51963442]Why the fuck does it matter if it's unfair to the product?! The product doesn't have feelings.[/QUOTE] Because the investment of money and time (of max and other devs) is wasted for views not held or endorsed by the product. I suppose you might argue that its a protest again Max but if you run a successful boycot of anything he was involved with it makes him a liability for any company considering hiring him, which is little better than the creeps who phone into peoples work place trying to get them fired for no reason.

[QUOTE=Tetsmega;51963339]As long as his politics and content are separate, there shouldn't be a problem. But if people are actually boycotting any future non-political content they need to grow up lmfao[/QUOTE] Call me a maverick, but I actually unsubscribed from Jon a few months back, before all of this mess began. I thought his videos have been getting worse for a while, this is just another nail in the coffin.

[QUOTE=doomkiwi;51963460]The point is that the object doesn't care that I'm buying, but you know who does? The asshole behind it who gets the money. What's it matter if I'm being unfair to the object? Is it not my right to tell the guy behind it to stuff it? Why does the fact that someone put out something mean I should ignore what the guy says and give him money?[/QUOTE] By all means use your right to tell the person behind the product to stuff it. You don't even have to give them money. But it makes no sense to place any judgement on that person onto their product. For example, JK Rowling is misinformed on subjects and says dumb shit without ever thinking about it. That doesn't make the Harry Potter books bad. [editline]15th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=ChickenMan99;51963475]Call me a maverick, but I actually unsubscribed from Jon a few months back, before all of this mess began. I thought his videos have been getting worse for a while, this is just another nail in the coffin.[/QUOTE] That exact situation happened to GradeAUnderA on facepunch too. Nobody liked his drama content, and no one liked his personality. It's a perfectly normal action to take.

[QUOTE=Tetsmega;51963480]By all means use your right to tell the person behind the product to stuff it. You don't even have to give them money. But it makes no sense to place any judgement on that person onto their product. For example, JK Rowling is misinformed on subjects and says dumb shit without ever thinking about it. That doesn't make the Harry Potter books bad. [/QUOTE] So good or bad is the only reason to buy a product? No one said Harry Potter books were bad, but there is nothing wrong by sending a message to JK Rowling by not buying her shit. In fact not buying something good is more of a message than not buying something that is already shit. You have some weird ass logic.

:snip:

As much as we have to blame people on the extreme left who harassed him and pushed him away, I think we just as much need to blame manipulate scumbags like Sargon. They take advantage of people rightfully disillusioned with the left by masquerading as just moderate who's just critical if the extreme left. But if you pay attention, they only ever pay the barest if lip-service to being left while they regularly advance right-wing people and causes. And they take impressionable people like Jontron , "No no, of course you can believe those things, ignore what those SJWs tell you." And they've you've gone and said something that's even pushed away people on the moderate right: well, well look who's suddenly your only friend left in the world.

[QUOTE=Mingebox;51963653]As much as we have to blame people on the extreme left who harassed him and pushed him away, I think we just as much need to blame manipulate scumbags like Sargon. They take advantage of people rightfully disillusioned with the left by masquerading as just moderate who's just critical if the extreme left. But if you pay attention, they only ever pay the barest if lip-service to being left while they regularly advance right-wing people and causes. And they take impressionable people like Jontron , "No no, of course you can believe those things, ignore what those SJWs tell you." And they've you've gone and said something that's even pushed away people on the moderate right: well, well look who's suddenly your only friend left in the world.[/QUOTE] Right on, kinda. Sargon is not left wing and anyone who says he is hasn't the fucking slightest about politics other than what these terrible youtubers spoonfeed them. The same people who take the word liberal to encompass everything left of centre right. As an example, I think you'll find liberals aren't socialists, and socialists dislike liberalism. I think this lack of distinction is a huge problem. This whole mislabeling of political positions on 'the left' does terrible disservice to the real theory behind it all and paints a nasty image when people seem to think the likes of Hillary Clinton are 'left wing liberals'. Are you fucking kidding me? These people are right wing in all but name. The democrats haven't seen the real left wing in forever with the exception of Sanders, and the 'far left' certainly ain't a bunch of loudmouths on the internet complaining about white people.

[QUOTE=LuaChobo;51963711]you are free to ignore/watch/do whatever you want with your own time regarding media consumption just dont impose that on others? not sure why a lot of people are having a hard time understanding that.[/QUOTE] If a kid who hasn't got fully formed opinions watches jontron on games and thinking "I like and trust this guy" then watches is fucktarded political views and adopt them because of that trust then there is a problem. In the perfect world everyone would be rational and well informed enough to see thru his bs but realistically we're not, especially younger people without experience or critical thinking skills. You and I might be capable of seeing thru his shit but others may not be. edit: not saying he should stop making videos but he should pick between reactionary bullshit politics and entertainment, combining the 2 (albeit indirectly/subtly) is no better than misinformation and propaganda.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;51962968]Wait how is Sargon being a shithead? Didn't he just cut out some things that Destiny said and made videos out of those snippets? Isn't it exactly what everyone is doing to JonTron now? Or did I miss something?[/QUOTE] 1) Taking clips out of context like WSJ did to pewdiepie which sargon ranted about 2) posting unedited clips from Destiny own video, on his channel. Not fair use there 3) Reuploading them after DMCA and having his fans mass reupload

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51963136]maybe if you had actually watched the clip in context and heard his argument you wouldn't have been lead to believe that his argument is that california's economy is great solely because of immigrants good thing you aren't disagreeing with me that sargon's title was fucking completely and obviously wrong tho[/QUOTE] Yes, Sargon's title was misleading and a blown out of proportion zinger, regardless if Destiny's argument was that Californian economy is great because of immigrants. I don't see how context can change what he meant but I am going to listen to the entire vid and accept that I'm wrong if that's going to be the case. [editline]15th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=KillRay;51963822]1) Taking clips out of context like WSJ did to pewdiepie which sargon ranted about [/QUOTE] How is this out of context? You might as well just said that JonTron's quotes are taken out of context. He wasn't saying things ironically and Sargon didn't pretend he actually meant it. [QUOTE=KillRay;51963822]2) posting unedited clips from Destiny own video, on his channel. Not fair use there[/QUOTE] Yeah, this one is true. Although I don't see people getting riled up here when people cut out and rehost the bigoted shit JonTron said. [QUOTE=KillRay;51963822]3) Reuploading them after DMCA and having his fans mass reupload[/QUOTE] I don't know about his fans but he didn't actually simply reupload them. The second time he showed his clips he was within fair use.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;51963868]Yes, Sargon's title was blown out of proportion zinger and misleading, regardless if Destiny's argument was that Californian economy is great because of immigrants. I don't see how context can change what he meant but I am going to listen to the entire vid and accept that I'm wrong if that's going to be the case.[/QUOTE] Well Jontron claimed the democrats were purposely trying to "import" mexicans to vote democrat because mexicans are, according to jontron/other conspiritards, more likely to vote democrat "because they like benefits" Destiny responds (and imo goes off on a tangent) by saying that red states tend to be a bigger drag on the economy ("implying" red states are more welfare use) and tend to have more welfare use (this is legit look at food stamp usage) also that big cities (ie where the money is made) in red states also tend to be democrat - eg austin texas. Whereas blue states (california being an example) tend to make more money and vote democrat. Implication (from the correlation, right or wrong how it may be) is that republicans tend to use welfare more than democrats. I think his (destiny's) point is something like red states vote republican red states have more welfare peeps (see food stamp use) implies correlation between republican voters and welfare peeps which would directly contradict jontron's statement: welfare peeps vote democrat (or broken down mexicans => welfare => democrat) Jontron then states that lots of mexicans live in red states, imo this is him trying to blame them for the welfare usage - to which destiny replies mexicans also live in california which imo refutes jontron's point. The economy isn't better because of mexicans (tho destiny does outright state immigration is good for the economy later on) he is using the quantity of mexicans in a successful state to counter jontron's invalid point that mexican's in red states are responsible for the high welfare reliance. Protip: watch the debate don't trust Sargon's version [editline]15th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Silly Sil;51963868] How is this out of context? You might as well just said that JonTron's quotes are taken out of context. He wasn't saying things ironically and Sargon didn't pretend he actually meant it. [/quote] This demonstrates inconsistency - Sargon criticised media outlets for taking stuff out of context when he does so himself. [quote] Yeah, this one is true. Although I don't see people getting riled up here when people cut out and rehost the bigoted shit JonTron said. I don't know about his fans but he didn't actually simply reupload them. The second time he showed his clips he was within fair use.[/QUOTE] I'm not sure about the DCMA thing, seems like bs from Destiny but I'd be annoyed if my stuff was being taken out of context - many Sargon fans will only see Sargon's edited version of it rather than going to Destiny's channel and watching the in context discussion. This mean Sargon fans will get a warped view of events and it means Sargon is making money at Destiny's expense.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;51963868] How is this out of context? You might as well just said that JonTron's quotes are taken out of context. He wasn't saying things ironically and Sargon didn't pretend he actually meant it. [/quote] Sargon did on Twitter. Especially the communist one even though right after that clip Destiny goes into a talk about being a pretty hardline capitalist. [QUOTE]Yeah, this one is true. Although I don't see people getting riled up here when people cut out and rehost the bigoted shit JonTron said.[/QUOTE] Taking clips out of Destiny's monetized youtube vod makes it his content, not Jons. So far I haven't seen any Jon clips uploaded to YouTube that were not edited or talked about to fall in fair use. Most of what I've seen unedited have been twitch clips, often taken live (and I think monetized) [Quote]I don't know about his fans but he didn't actually simply reupload them. The second time he showed his clips he was within fair use.[/QUOTE] Third. Destiny got the Twitter clips removed too. [editline]15th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=mdeceiver79;51963910] I'm not sure about the DCMA thing, seems like bs from Destiny but I'd be annoyed if my stuff was being taken out of context - many Sargon fans will only see Sargon's edited version of it rather than going to Destiny's channel and watching the in context discussion. This mean Sargon fans will get a warped view of events and it means Sargon is making money at Destiny's expense.[/QUOTE] You can not take unedited chunks of someone else's content and reupload them without any edits. Movies, music, videos. This is in fact what DMCA is for.