Jon Tron vs Destiny / 4:21 AM - Zukriuchen: I Stand by JonTron, unironically - General

[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;51963910]Well Jontron claimed the democrats were purposely trying to "import" mexicans to vote democrat because mexicans are, according to jontron/other conspiritards, more likely to vote democrat "because they like benefits" Destiny responds (and imo goes off on a tangent) by saying that red states tend to be a bigger drag on the economy ("implying" red states are more welfare use) and tend to have more welfare use (this is legit look at food stamp usage) also that big cities (ie where the money is made) in red states also tend to be democrat - eg austin texas. Whereas blue states (california being an example) tend to make more money and vote democrat. Implication (from the correlation, right or wrong how it may be) is that republicans tend to use welfare more than democrats. I think his (destiny's) point is something like red states vote republican red states have more welfare peeps (see food stamp use) implies correlation between republican voters and welfare peeps which would directly contradict jontron's statement: welfare peeps vote democrat (or broken down mexicans => welfare => democrat) Jontron then states that lots of mexicans live in red states, imo this is him trying to blame them for the welfare usage - to which destiny replies mexicans also live in california which imo refutes jontron's point. [...] he is using the quantity of mexicans in a successful state to counter jontron's invalid point that mexican's in red states are responsible for the high welfare reliance. [/QUOTE] Yeah and up to this point I am in full support for Destiny and his side of the argument. I think the question he asked "Why is the state of California the 6th strongest economy in the world when they deal with more immigrants than any other state, how is this possible?" was spot on. The problem I have and Sargon as well is when Destiny said "Maybe the supply of labor helped the state grow a little bit?" in a sarcastic tone, that implies immigrants are to thank for the Californian economy. This is what Sargon latched to and overblown it. [QUOTE=mdeceiver79;51963910]This demonstrates inconsistency - Sargon criticised media outlets for taking stuff out of context when he does so himself. I'm not sure about the DCMA thing, seems like bs from Destiny but I'd be annoyed if my stuff was being taken out of context - many Sargon fans will only see Sargon's edited version of it rather than going to Destiny's channel and watching the in context discussion. This mean Sargon fans will get a warped view of events and it means Sargon is making money at Destiny's expense.[/QUOTE] I still don't think it's out of context. Nobody is going to defend JonTron by saying that his opinions are being taken out of context. I don't understand why Destiny couldn't possibly be wrong on one thing or just not word something properly. [editline]15th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=KillRay;51963929]Sargon did on Twitter. Especially the communist one even though right after that clip Destiny goes into a talk about being a pretty hardline capitalist.[/QUOTE] I'm going to watch the entire thing now. Though Destiny did seem to think communism is purely an "economic thing". It doesn't really have much to do with Destiny being in support of capitalism. [QUOTE=KillRay;51963929]Taking clips out of Destiny's monetized youtube vod makes it his content, not Jons. So far I haven't seen any Jon clips uploaded to YouTube that were not edited or talked about to fall in fair use. Most of what I've seen unedited have been twitch clips, often taken live (and I think monetized) Third. Destiny got the Twitter clips removed too. [/QUOTE] Didn't know about the twitter clips. Yep that's a dick move.

[QUOTE=Silly Sil;51963942]Yeah and up to this point I am in full support for Destiny and his side of the argument. I think the question he asked "Why is the state of California the 6th strongest economy in the world when they deal with more immigrants than any other state, how is this possible?" was spot on. The problem I have and Sargon as well is when Destiny said "Maybe the supply of labor helped the state grow a little bit?" in a sarcastic tone, that implies immigrants are to thank for the Californian economy. This is what Sargon latched to and overblown it.[/quote] I dunno if the immigration helped California grow with cheap labour - not entirely sure if anyone knows an actual answer for this, some economists say Immigration is good some say otherwise (some say good for economy but bad for workers, some say good in short term bad in long term, others say bad in short term good in long term). It's truth value doesn't influence the overall arguement though, jontron made a point about mexican immigrants being welfare scroungers, Destiny aptly countered it as we agree. [quote] I still don't think it's out of context. Nobody is going to defend JonTron by saying that his opinions are being taken out of context. I don't understand why Destiny couldn't possibly be wrong on one thing or just not word something properly.[/QUOTE] I think Destiny is wrong/naive in a couple of things, his views on globalism are imo overly optimistic, his thing about "europeans not liking to be called europeans" is misinformed. I also don't like his debate style it, like Sargons, seems more about egotistical "I win" "epic zinger" and always having to have the last word so they seem like they "won" the discourse. And that bs about "so what should be kill all black people" was a real dick move - so much about this shitty debate style is about framing your opponent incorrectly and making a straw man. All that aside though they were having a discussion about jontron's views. All of Destiny's obnoxious "what does that mean", baiting and that straw man are made valid when Jontron drops his defences and expresses concerns of black people getting into the genepool. He's a racist. While Destiny did use fallacies his point is a valid one, he suspected jontron was a racist and he is right. I do feel sorry for jontron though. The nervous laughter, the recognition that he'd fallen into the trap, the resigned attitude at the end, the absolute media silence since then. I hate racism but I know lots of racists who don't know any better and seeing a guy lose his career or sink into depression (or suicide as can happen with scandals) would be utterly terrible. Also the debate won't do anything to stop racism if anything it gives hacks like Sargon more publicity and any trouble to Jontron's career will affect how his fans see social issues.

This whole thing is just sad, really. Jon does needs a kick up the arse for being dumb here, and maybe then he'll recover from this, id hope anyway. Although there are people out there that won't even think about forgiving him after this.

I'd honestly be surprised if all this drama would affect his average views much. He only lost around 10k subs, and is back at gaining more today. I don't think people will forget this though, it'll definitely be a stain on his name.

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/tDjzb5X.jpg[/IMG] Turns out half of the gizmodo article was bullshit. Go figures.

[QUOTE=Metaru;51964097] Turns out half of the gizmodo article was bullshit. Go figures.[/QUOTE] Should go without saying that you should be really skeptical of anything that comes from gizmodo.

[QUOTE=TheFilmSlacker;51964149]A word from Jon regarding the controversy would be gr8[/QUOTE] He doesn't seem to have tweeted for a good day now, so I think he at least noticed he messed up pretty badly. The question now is just [I]in which way[/I] he thinks he messed up.

I'd just like to say that the statement "immigrants grow the supply of labor" is an objectively true statement and I challenge anyone to find a reputable economist who disagrees like it's like saying "immigrants increase the population", you just can't disagree, it isn't possible

[QUOTE=booster;51964059]I'd honestly be surprised if all this drama would affect his average views much. He only lost around 10k subs, and is back at gaining more today. I don't think people will forget this though, it'll definitely be a stain on his name.[/QUOTE] To be honest I would've never known about this if I didn't visit Facepunch, either.

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51964197]I'd just like to say that the statement "immigrants grow the supply of labor" is an objectively true statement and I challenge anyone to find a reputable economist who disagrees like it's like saying "immigrants increase the population", you just can't disagree, it isn't possible[/QUOTE] Though ironically it occurs more in white collar jobs as opposed to blue collar.

[QUOTE=TheFilmSlacker;51964149]A word from Jon regarding the controversy would be gr8[/QUOTE] He has only a few options for this and they're all bad If he's just staying silent and waiting for the cycle to talk about something else and pretend this didn't happen it's probably the best outcome he can get

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51964197]I'd just like to say that the statement "immigrants grow the supply of labor" is an objectively true statement and I challenge anyone to find a reputable economist who disagrees like it's like saying "immigrants increase the population", you just can't disagree, it isn't possible[/QUOTE] Man, what you're saying is the truth but.. you have over two times more posts in this thread than the next leading frequent poster. Nearly 100 posts in just 27 pages. Maybe take a little break? Save yourself the white hairs, there are plenty here that agree with you.

I guess just to summarize Destiny's position on immigration, he thinks that as immigrants enter the economy and grow the supply of labor, while they will reduce the wages of a very specific demographic of people, the labor they provide also opens up new opportunities in other complementary sectors while reducing the overall price of goods. They are a measurable benefit to the economy and ultimately are beneficial to the people living in the country, it's just important that we tax the people who benefit the most from the cheaper and more easily obtainable labor while instituting programs that protect the people who are negatively affected. [editline]15th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Lobstuzz;51964262]Man, what you're saying is the truth but.. you have over two times more posts in this thread than the next leading frequent poster. Nearly 100 posts in just 27 pages. Maybe take a little break? Save yourself the white hairs, there are plenty here that agree with you.[/QUOTE] I'm going to burn out and give up eventually. Until then, as long as I feel I have something to say, I might as well say it.

[QUOTE=mdeceiver79;51963997]I dunno if the immigration helped California grow with cheap labour - not entirely sure if anyone knows an actual answer for this, some economists say Immigration is good some say otherwise (some say good for economy but bad for workers, some say good in short term bad in long term, others say bad in short term good in long term). It's truth value doesn't influence the overall arguement though, jontron made a point about mexican immigrants being welfare scroungers, Destiny aptly countered it as we agree.[/QUOTE] Sure we are in total agreement about the "welfare scroungers" and his reply was spot on. (Also I'd argue that pace-controlled immigration of workforce is beneficial) Like I said the only thing I didn't like is when he made it look like immigrants are to thank for how good Californian economy is doing. And now having watched this part. Sargon jumped after some really minuscule thing. Destiny was misleading or just worded himself poorly because that wasn't the topic but that's such a small thing to latch to. [QUOTE=mdeceiver79;51963997]I think Destiny is wrong/naive in a couple of things, his views on globalism are imo overly optimistic, his thing about "europeans not liking to be called europeans" is misinformed. I also don't like his debate style it, like Sargons, seems more about egotistical "I win" "epic zinger" and always having to have the last word so they seem like they "won" the discourse. And that bs about "so what should be kill all black people" was a real dick move - so much about this shitty debate style is about framing your opponent incorrectly and making a straw man. All that aside though they were having a discussion about jontron's views. All of Destiny's obnoxious "what does that mean", baiting and that straw man are made valid when Jontron drops his defences and expresses concerns of black people getting into the genepool. He's a racist. While Destiny did use fallacies his point is a valid one, he suspected jontron was a racist and he is right. I do feel sorry for jontron though. The nervous laughter, the recognition that he'd fallen into the trap, the resigned attitude at the end, the absolute media silence since then. I hate racism but I know lots of racists who don't know any better and seeing a guy lose his career or sink into depression (or suicide as can happen with scandals) would be utterly terrible. Also the debate won't do anything to stop racism if anything it gives hacks like Sargon more publicity and any trouble to Jontron's career will affect how his fans see social issues.[/QUOTE] I'm half way through and JonTron seems really terrible at articulating his arguments. It looks to me like he was listening/reading some of the anti-sjw/anti-political-correctnes/anit-extreme-left videos or articles and didn't really put it into a whole in his head. I'm 55 minutes in, and he said some really stupid shit so far, and still haven't made himself clear. I think he's trying to make an argument calling out hypocrisy that white people are not allowed to speak against becoming a minority or talk about their self interest when if white people were becoming a majority in a non-white country it would be okay for the natives to speak out against it. I guess that's sorta true? But he's soooo bad at articulating this. Also the most revealing quote of his prejudice is when they are talking about the blue/red states and he says that lots of mexicans live in red states and he might have used the words "brown people" not mexicans. Also Destiny is terrible when he constantly says "we're not in Europe" as if immigrants from middle-east would be different if they were coming to the US and not to Europe. [editline]15th March 2017[/editline] Oh my god he said it at last. 55 minutes in he made himself clear. (lol 20 seconds after I paused) [url]https://youtu.be/6RQA9GZprqM?t=3302[/url] Also this confuses me. Destiny asks him a good question that should verify if he's a racist or only cares about values/culture and then he says that it's the latter. [url]https://youtu.be/6RQA9GZprqM?t=3781[/url] I think this guy is lost. Like he wants to talk about cultures and values and sometimes somehow equates that to skin color for some reason. I'm really having trouble understanding his point of view clearly. Maybe it's just as chaotic in his head. [editline]15th March 2017[/editline] Jesus, he thinks there's a correlation between violence committed by black Americans and violence committed by black people in Africa. Case closed.

[QUOTE=Stroheim;51957637]It's boring unless you get a good/funny interviewee. Like the guy we had tonight? Fucking GOLD. And also because people will just make some boring interviewees. Destiny is good, because his fame/connections basically cover the bases from IcePosideon to Dunkey. But a small time dude? It will just be "StreamerX interviews friend (for third time)."[/QUOTE] Watch this twitch stream or I swear to fucking god [t]http://thumb9.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/1503659/374247406/stock-photo-pointing-handgun-on-a-business-man-s-head-374247406.jpg[/t] [B]I SWEAR TO FUCKING GOD[/B] No ones forcing you to watch it

Gamers getting involved with politics was the worst thing to happen to this country.

[QUOTE=Killajax;51964460]Gamers getting involved with politics was the worst thing to happen to this country.[/QUOTE] Even worse than Trump?

[media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZR3O9OCgik[/media] oh boy fellas

Oh god this Thorin/Destiny "discussion" :v: Thorin keeps interrupting him

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51964197]I'd just like to say that the statement "immigrants grow the supply of labor" is an objectively true statement and I challenge anyone to find a reputable economist who disagrees like it's like saying "immigrants increase the population", you just can't disagree, it isn't possible[/QUOTE] Yeah but that increase in supply of labor will drop wages for nonskilled jobs if supply outpaces demand. It would be the opposite for educated jobs, but those typically requires years of education which only the shrinking middle class, rich, and the academically gifted can obtain. I'm not disagreeing with anything or agreeing with anything about Jon and his political views. Too many pages to read I just wanted to respond to your immigration statement.

[QUOTE=LtKyle2;51964626]Yeah but that increase in supply of labor will drop wages for nonskilled jobs if supply outpaces demand. It would be the opposite for educated jobs, but those typically requires years of education which only the shrinking middle class, rich, and the academically gifted can obtain. I'm not disagreeing with anything or agreeing with anything about Jon and his political views. Too many pages to read I just wanted to respond to your immigration statement.[/QUOTE] this is a really complex subject and I suggest if you want more insight into destiny's thoughts on immigration you check out his video where he was preparing for a debate with laura southern

It's a real fucking shame really. My brother and I fucking loved Jon, and always put it on the TV as soon as he made a new episode. It kind of hurt to tell him about this stuff, too.

-snip-

[QUOTE=Primigenes;51963665]Yeah seriously, like what is even the point of "[U][B]You guys[/B][/U] are crazy for not separating the art from the artist!" post. I haven't seen most of the people who have canceled there sub in this thread forcing others to do the same so I don't get why the reverse is happening. Do people not understand how rude that is? Like 1. Why would I go out of my way to continue watching Jon's content and provide him with monetary support despite him saying shit I abhor? There are people on this forum that don't even fucking click some videos on this section because they're by Youtubers they dislike. Some people don't even read articles by certain sites. How is the case with Jon any different? 2. Separating the "art from the artist" doesn't work the way you think it is and the way he's using it makes it sound like another stupid buzzword to make an argument that is not really there. By watching Jon's shit I'm literally giving him funding and proceeding to make him relevant. I'm not "separating the art from the artist" because Jon's fucking alive and he benefits off of me watching his content. If H.P. Lovecraft was alive right now I wouldn't be reading his shit either. Seriously, "separating the art from the artist" usually only works with dead artists who don't benefit of your actions. Most people in real life don't even follow that kind of thought either because artists are boycotted all the time. And honest to god that "separate the artist" when used in this context specifically is just another way of saying "I don't really care that much" or "It doesn't really affect me", and honestly you're better off saying that instead. It wouldn't be as intellectually offensive. It's not like the contents bad because I don't like Jon. Just I'm not going to support him by viewing it. There are like thousands of other youtubers I can watch. You have every right to not support people monetarily because of the shit they said, and when people go against that they start to look like JonTron fanboys: what other explanation is there to people arguing not even against the reasoning behind a boycott but the act itself. People do this all the time and the ball doesn't stop at your favorite youtuber[/QUOTE] When you put it that way I guess I was coming off as intellectually offensive. I'd like to apologize to doomkiwi and the other users who replied to me. It was just that I saw the sentiments I expressed here on [url=https://facepunch.com/showthread.php?t=1554926&p=51898685&viewfull=1#post51898685]another thread[/url] and felt the same way about Jon Tron. While I'll personally put aside politics when I consume media or entertainment, I guess it is out of place to argue or tell others to do the same. Sorry if I came off as preachy, and I hope others like me are able to come to a better understanding.

[QUOTE=Lobstuzz;51964262]Man, what you're saying is the truth but.. you have over two times more posts in this thread than the next leading frequent poster. Nearly 100 posts in just 27 pages. Maybe take a little break? Save yourself the white hairs, there are plenty here that agree with you.[/QUOTE] To be fair most of those posts have been pretty well sized and reasonable. It's not like he's shitting up the thread Spurring discussion if you will

[media]https://youtu.be/kdOgvdbl314[/media]

[QUOTE=Toothpick;51964579][media]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZR3O9OCgik[/media] oh boy fellas[/QUOTE] Sucks when you rediscover someone and subscribe to them, just to have them put out a video showing them get terminal cancer by talking to naked ape.

I've read most of the thread, and skimmed the other parts, who is Naked Ape? All I can tell is that he is a really huge asshole and that's it. Was he a facepuncher?

[QUOTE=demotech;51964625]Oh god this Thorin/Destiny "discussion" :v: Thorin keeps interrupting him[/QUOTE] i'm not shocked. i dont hate Thorin but he's good friends/a massive fan of Rlewis/breitbart and also generally really bad at talking to and with people

[QUOTE=Katatonic717;51964843]I've read most of the thread, and skimmed the other parts, who is Naked Ape? All I can tell is that he is a really huge asshole and that's it. Was he a facepuncher?[/QUOTE] Tudd loves him and posts his videos a lot