Jon Tron vs Destiny / 4:21 AM - Zukriuchen: I Stand by JonTron, unironically - General

[QUOTE=kariko;51966804]Just because someone might defend him doesn't mean they agree with what he's saying.[/QUOTE] Alright, your right not everyone defending him necessarily agrees. But his statements are definitely indefensible. I just see way too many people arguing that he didn't mean what he said, or that he was pulled into saying the things he said, or just he's a bad debater so what he said has no merit.

[QUOTE=shadow_oap;51966899]Alright, your right not everyone defending him necessarily agrees. But his statements are definitely indefensible. I just see way too many people arguing that he didn't mean what he said, or that he was pulled into saying the things he said, or just he's a bad debater so what he said has no merit.[/QUOTE] Well, I agree somewhat. I personally think he's horribly misinformed, but at the same time it doesn't change the fact that he's spreading that awful shit to people so it doesn't really matter in the end. Kind of sucks really...I love his videos but knowing this stuff now, I don't know if I can really support it. :disappoint:

So just because were 35 pages in and I wanted to post this finally. [url]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/03/23/poor-white-kids-are-less-likely-to-go-to-prison-than-rich-black-kids/[/url] Here is that study Jontron was referring to that everyone thinks he pulled out of his ass.

This idea of the association between race and the region of the world you come from, and how that determines your culture? This is basically Evolutionary Lamarckism. It was also basically the attitude of the British Union of Fascists and Italian National Fascist party to race and culture. Waving statistics about crime rates and technological backwardness in Africa isn't proof of this. The reason why Africa and the Middle East aren't as developed is complicated and there are immensely detailed, long term, socio-economic and geological factors that put those regions where they are today. In the simplest terms, Europe had plentiful access to Coal and Iron which are essential for an industrial revolution. Because of the rivalry between European states and their economic ambitions, Europeans created overseas empires while powers like the Chinese looked on apathetically and became less concerned with external trading and colonisation over time. Europe was also fortunate that key reformist factions succeeded so often, such as with the Protestant Reformation, English Civil War and French Revolution. Protestantism led to higher literacy, the English Civil War laid the foundations for English socio-economic development, the French Revolution and Napoleonic Empire only spread reform even faster. The great irony is that even for the alt-right, admitting to be an Evolutionary Darwinist (i.e, like the Nazis, believing genes are the root of culture) is too far, but they have no qualms about blindly promoting Evolutionary Lamarckism which is still utterly idiotic and flying in the face of science and historical fact

I can't believe how many people actually think naked ape had the upper-hand or was more knowledgeable (youtube comments...). He was just spouting off whatever random thought would come to his mind and act like he knew what he was talking about.

[QUOTE=Tudd;51966955]So just because were 35 pages in and I wanted to post this finally. [url]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/03/23/poor-white-kids-are-less-likely-to-go-to-prison-than-rich-black-kids/[/url] Here is that study Jontron was referring to that everyone thinks he pulled out of his ass.[/QUOTE] So he used an example of racism against blacks to be racist against blacks? Jon is just better of not talking about this at all.

[QUOTE=Tudd;51966955]So just because were 35 pages in and I wanted to post this finally. [url]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/03/23/poor-white-kids-are-less-likely-to-go-to-prison-than-rich-black-kids/[/url] Here is that study Jontron was referring to that everyone thinks he pulled out of his ass.[/QUOTE] this was literally the first thing destiny found when he went on google this isn't something nobody knew about, it's just completely irrelevant

[QUOTE=Tudd;51966955]So just because were 35 pages in and I wanted to post this finally. [url]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/03/23/poor-white-kids-are-less-likely-to-go-to-prison-than-rich-black-kids/[/url] Here is that study Jontron was referring to that everyone thinks he pulled out of his ass.[/QUOTE] Okay? And? Have you considered there are external factors outside of their genetics that cause this? Can you find such numbers broken down by offence? Can you find some kind of details relating to court prosecutions/ defences for these cases? It's not exactly unknown that the black population in the US faces a lot of inherent discrimination. Being targeted for frisks more often, and given harsher sentencing for the same offence as a white criminal. Why wouldn't this discrimination also carry up through the wealth bands? (source that wraps it all up nicely: [url]http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/feb/26/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-says-blacks-more-likely-be-arreste/[/url]) Who gives a fuck if Jon was "right" about the numbers when the reasoning and intention of his argument itself was fucking atrocious and wholly ignorant of, well, everything to do with the racial divides in the US right now. Of course, not that you care. You're just here to show those silly leftists what's what after all.

I was just posting it cause it seemed like you guys could find that source of it. Just a bunch Breibart/inforstormer types. Honestly, I think it has to do with a transitioning class of individuals who are now in the upper class, and also a heavy influence from a popular culture that envies crime even when rich.

[QUOTE=Tudd;51966955]So just because were 35 pages in and I wanted to post this finally. [url]https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/03/23/poor-white-kids-are-less-likely-to-go-to-prison-than-rich-black-kids/[/url] Here is that study Jontron was referring to that everyone thinks he pulled out of his ass.[/QUOTE] "Poor white kids are less likely to go to prison than rich black kids" - Article “Wealthy Blacks Commit More Crime Than Poor Whites” - Jon So he brings up that fact to say what exactly? That environmental factors are important to consider? Well no, Jon couldn't answer why he thought black males were involved in more crime pretty much says it all. So then what point was he trying to make then...

[QUOTE=hexpunK;51966995]Okay? And? Have you considered there are external factors outside of their genetics that cause this? Can you find such numbers broken down by offence? Can you find some kind of details relating to court prosecutions/ defences for these cases? It's not exactly unknown that the black population in the US faces a lot of inherent discrimination. Being targeted for frisks more often, and given harsher sentencing for the same offence as a white criminal. Why wouldn't this discrimination also carry up through the wealth bands? (source that wraps it all up nicely: [url]http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2016/feb/26/hillary-clinton/hillary-clinton-says-blacks-more-likely-be-arreste/[/url]) Who gives a fuck if Jon was "right" about the numbers when the reasoning and intention of his argument itself was fucking atrocious and wholly ignorant of, well, everything to do with the racial divides in the US right now. Of course, not that you care. You're just here to show those silly leftists what's what after all.[/QUOTE] I don't defend Jontrons lack of cohesive arguing, but he wasn't wrong the study and numbers exist. [editline]15th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=shadow_oap;51967016]"Poor white kids are less likely to go to prison than rich black kids" - Article “Wealthy Blacks Commit More Crime Than Poor Whites” - Jon So he brings up that fact to say what exactly? That environmental factors are important to consider? Well no, Jon couldn't answer why he thought black males were involved in more crime pretty much says it all. So then what point was he trying to make then...[/QUOTE] Semantics and again he is actually not great at arguing at all. Especially not following up on that.

[QUOTE=Primigenes;51966888]See it what way? Bro, I refuse to believe you're making posts like these. You're just ignoring shit because of your obvious bias. Do you think people can't tell what kind of content you peruse via your posts. [IMG]https://im.ezgif.com/tmp/ezgif-1-2fcc455b9d.gif[/IMG] Wow a guy who posts a [B][U]specific 30 minute unlisted video excerpt[/U][/B] from a garbage channel with like 967 subscribers is complaining about Sargon getting DMCA'd something Sargon himself complained about. Sargon who is also on the related channels of said garbage channel. And now you're arguing that Destiny is immature for hanging up on Naked Ape, a guest on Sargon's shit, who had screamed at him to shut up while constantly interrupting and switching the topic!?!? Wow I wonder why?!?! Like how fucking stupid do you think people are. You're bullshitting to appear neutral with such obvious biases. You're posting an unlisted video of a video already out in full. You're also posting from a channel that has two versions of said video. One of which is just him arguing on behalf of NakedApe. So wow, no shit you're riding Destiny's nuts so hard. [video]https://youtu.be/bqTxTb7vWcE?t=13m29s[/video] You're not arguing from a genuine standpoint. Why are you wasting peoples time[/QUOTE] This guy's comment about poor immigrants rising the price of real estate is honestly just wrong. They likely won't be able to afford "normal" (desirable) housing and are most likely going to end up in a bad neighborhood whether they pay for their housing or not (squatting). Real estate prices in a project are elastic as fuck because the only consumer base is too poor to afford anything higher, and since landlords can't increase prices they usually just skimp out on maintenance costs in order to keep their profits consistent. The just isn't a high enough influx of immigrants to be creating any population migration, there is no mexican-gentrification going on. Not to say immigrants can't screw up a housing market; As we all know, Vancouver has experienced a weird sort of population migration where rich asian immigrants are shoving up the average income of the city as well as the rent and property taxes, causing residents to give up their homes because they're unable to pay for the new costs. The topic of immigration in the US doesn't involve rich asian immigrants though, we're talking about poor central americans and middle eastern refugees that are more likely to lower an area's value because they're undesirable neighbors according to the market.

[QUOTE=Tudd;51967019] Semantics and again he is actually not great at arguing at all. Especially not following up on that.[/QUOTE] do you know what the word semantic means

[QUOTE=Tudd;51967019]I don't defend Jontrons lack of cohesive arguing, but he wasn't wrong the study and numbers exist. [editline]15th March 2017[/editline] Semantics and again he is actually not great at arguing at all. Especially not following up on that.[/QUOTE] Okay, but it doesn't matter if he was "right about the numbers" when he was using that evidence in an absolutely awful argument (who likes alliteration? this guy!). Being "right about numbers" only really helps when your argument doesn't rely on misrepresenting what those numbers mean. (people had also found various studies that show similar things, they're unimportant however as his argument is flat out wrong in its basic axioms (I believe that's the word I want?))

[QUOTE=Tudd;51967013]I was just posting it cause it seemed like you guys could find that source of it. Just a bunch Breibart/inforstormer types. Honestly, I think it has to do with a transitioning class of individuals who are now in the upper class, and also a heavy influence from a popular culture that envies crime even when rich.[/QUOTE] You're not saying that rich black people go to jail more often because they are influenced by pop culture or are you? That this explains the difference between rich whites and blacks.

[QUOTE=Tudd;51967019]I don't defend Jontrons lack of cohesive arguing, but he wasn't wrong the study and numbers exist. [editline]15th March 2017[/editline] [/QUOTE] he was fucking wrong committing more crime and going to jail are NOT the same thing those are objectively fucking different he was objectively wrong

[QUOTE=Tudd;51967019]I don't defend Jontrons lack of cohesive arguing, but he wasn't wrong the study and numbers exist.[/QUOTE] Jon's wrong about the numbers and the study because he misrepresented what the study actually says. The numbers and the study don't necessarily say that rich black kids commit more crime than white kids, it says they're more likely to be arrested and unfortunately we don't know the nature behind any of these arrests.

I honestly fail to understand where Jon said blacks entering the white gene pool is icky. It just seems to me that Jon is really bad at debates and should stick to well prepared scripts and articles. I understood what he said about colored people entering the gene pool differently. I believe he meant that in the distant future, not only would said coloured people assimilate in terms of culture, they'd also assimilate in terms of of race. As in, with time, people would become more and more mixed race, and there wouldn't be a clear distinctions between the races. It'd still be a somewhat homogeneous country that's slowly shifting towards a mixed, new race. He never said that's bad. However, it was definitely a pointless thing to comment on. Not only is he talking about the hypothetical situation of really slow assimilation, it also had little to do with the argument. Again, he's just really, [B]really[/B] bad at debates. If you could point me to other parts where Jon talked about racial purity I'd be happy. I'm still gathering information at this point.

[QUOTE=Tudd;51967019]I don't defend Jontrons lack of cohesive arguing, but he wasn't wrong the study and numbers exist. [editline]15th March 2017[/editline] Semantics and again he is actually not great at arguing at all. Especially not following up on that.[/QUOTE] he was literally, factually, objectivley, inarguably incorrect this isn't a matter of debate it's reality vs your racist delusions

[QUOTE=Tudd;51967019]I don't defend Jontrons lack of cohesive arguing, but he wasn't wrong the study and numbers exist.[/QUOTE] He was wrong in how he used that study lmao. Destiny was in the middle of arguing for economic disparities being a factor in criminality more so than race. Asking whether Jon thought poor whites committed more crimes than rich whites, asking whether poor blacks commit more crimes than rich blacks - which is when Jon came out with the statement as if to undermine the idea that these economic disparities are important. There's a pretty heavy implication here that race is indeed a big reason in Jon's mind ESPECIALLY when we've already established he doesn't think oppression exists in western countries

[QUOTE=Mr. Scorpio;51967031]do you know what the word semantic means[/QUOTE] You are arguing whether if flipping the studies title is important. "Poor white kids are less likely to go to prison than rich black kids" - Article “Wealthy Blacks Commit More Crime Than Poor Whites” - Jon I really don't think this changes the meaning much. Cause either way, we still have to argue the same points.

i just wish it was 2012 again

[QUOTE=RB33;51967042]You're not saying that rich black people go to jail more often because they are influenced by pop culture or are you? That this explains the difference between rich whites and blacks.[/QUOTE] Well considering people here want to emphasize socio-economic factors, those are some I will list, so yes. Though ultimately I don't think anyone, including me, have a clear answer why this discrepancy exists. Especially seeing how the study as far as I can tell only acknowledges it, but doesn't infer why. If someone did see their conclusion I would be happy to see it. [editline]15th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Judas;51967180] this isn't a matter of debate it's reality vs your racist delusions[/QUOTE] I like all the races though. [editline]15th March 2017[/editline] [QUOTE=Primigenes;51967080] You can be imprisoned without even committing a crime so again.You should know that since sometimes their are threads about false imprisonment sandwiched between two of yours in SH.[/QUOTE] You and others think this false imprisonment explains the studies finding of a 5-15% difference incarceration rate? I personally find that highly unlikely. Though if there is evidence to show that African Americans are disproportionately incarcerated under false imprisonment in great numbers I would be curious.

[QUOTE=Tudd;51967441]Well considering people here want to emphasize socio-economic factors, those are some I will list, so yes. Though ultimately I don't think anyone, including me, have a clear answer why this discrepancy exists. Especially seeing how the study as far as I can tell only acknowledges it, but doesn't infer why. If someone did see their conclusion I would be happy to see it.[/QUOTE] Jon didn't use the study as a question, he used it as an answer. He used it with the explicit purpose of downplaying the economic factors that Destiny was arguing for. You are very clearly misrepresenting this interaction by acting like he was just throwing these discrepancies out there to be argued - the discrepancy WAS Jon's argument Also, we can rule out the idea that Jon considers the social aspects, since he was also very clear about how he thinks discrimination doesn't exist in western countries. What does that leave us with if not race?

[QUOTE=Zukriuchen;51967473]Jon didn't use the study as a question, he used it as an answer. He used it with the explicit purpose of downplaying the economic factors that Destiny was arguing for. You are very clearly misrepresenting this interaction by acting like he was just throwing these discrepancies out there to be argued - the discrepancy WAS Jon's argument Also, we can rule out the idea that Jon considers the social aspects, since he was also very clear about how he thinks discrimination doesn't exist in western countries. What does that leave us with if not race?[/QUOTE] Well as earlier stated, Jontron fucked up not having a follow up besides what you just concluded. I don't think Jontron really meant anything else and he was unfocused as a whole.

[QUOTE=Tudd;51967494]Well as earlier stated, Jontron fucked up not having a follow up besides what you just concluded. I don't think Jontron really meant anything else and he was unfocused as a whole.[/QUOTE] do you say the same kind of things about trump like do you live in a fantasy version of reality where no matter what anybody says, you can interpret or excuse it however you want ah wait...

[QUOTE=Tudd;51967434]You are arguing whether if flipping the studies title is important. "Poor white kids are less likely to go to prison than rich black kids" - Article “Wealthy Blacks Commit More Crime Than Poor Whites” - Jon I really don't think this changes the meaning much. Cause either way, we still have to argue the same points.[/QUOTE] let me explain it to you like you're a fucking child POOR WHITE KIDS ARE LESS LIKELY TO GO TO PRISON THAN RICH BLACK KIDS this means WHEN CONVICTED OF THE SAME CRIME, A POOR WHITE KID IS LESS LIKELY TO GO TO PRISON FOR SAID CRIME THAN A RICH BLACK KID, BECAUSE OF INSTITUTIONAL RACISM which is NOT THE SAME AS WEALTHY BLACK KIDS COMITTING MORE CRIME THAN POOR WHITE KIDS you fucking racist [highlight](User was banned for this post ("Flaming/cool off" - OvB))[/highlight]

[QUOTE=Judas;51967625]let me explain it to you like you're a fucking child POOR WHITE KIDS ARE LESS LIKELY TO GO TO PRISON THAN RICH BLACK KIDS this means [B]WHEN CONVICTED OF THE SAME CRIME, A POOR WHITE KID IS LESS LIKELY TO GO TO PRISON FOR SAID CRIME THAN A RICH BLACK KID, BECAUSE OF INSTITUTIONAL RACISM[/B] which is NOT THE SAME AS WEALTHY BLACK KIDS COMITTING MORE CRIME THAN POOR WHITE KIDS you fucking racist[/QUOTE] Wait, where was the evidence of that posted? At most I've seen the Politifact article that only speaks about averages across the entire population.

[QUOTE=Judas;51967625]let me explain it to you like you're a fucking child POOR WHITE KIDS ARE LESS LIKELY TO GO TO PRISON THAN RICH BLACK KIDS this means WHEN CONVICTED OF THE SAME CRIME, A POOR WHITE KID IS LESS LIKELY TO GO TO PRISON FOR SAID CRIME THAN A RICH BLACK KID, BECAUSE OF INSTITUTIONAL RACISM which is NOT THE SAME AS WEALTHY BLACK KIDS COMITTING MORE CRIME THAN POOR WHITE KIDS you fucking racist[/QUOTE] Actually the study never makes any of these assertions or conclusions (as far as direct quotes I can find go). I think you are taking the Washington's Post interpretation or your own. You are asserting that this is a indicator of same crimes = more incarceration just because of a singular racial factor, when the study never asserts that. It actually only found that Blacks are more likely to have been in prison despite being wealthy, but it never looked into the context of those crimes being the same as whites and convicted simply more. Even I know there could be a variety of reasons why this has happened, but you just made up this assertion.

[QUOTE=Tudd;51967667]Actually the study never makes any of these assertions or conclusions (as far as direct quotes I can fine go). I think you are taking the Washington's Post interpretation or your own. You are asserting that this is a indicator of same crimes = more incarceration, just because of a singular race difference, when the study never asserts that. Even I know there could be a variety of reasons why this has happened, but you just made up this assertion.[/QUOTE] I mean who fucking cares the point is that the study is completely unrelated to jontron's statement